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The picture is of my son Joe he was about 20 weeks he lived an hour and he could have been aborted. He recieved no help no oxgen in fact he wasa only given the blanket and hat after he died. The hospital staff wanted the picture to be nice. I wish they would have given the blanket and hat sooner. Like a fish they said he was just to small.
 

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What a wonderful picture. I am so so sorry you lost your son Joe.
Words don't come to me right now, tears do.

My little neice was born at 21 1/2 weeks. She was jsut over a pound and she lived for 9 months in the hospital. She too could have been aborted. She now is 13 years old and perfectly healthy.

One day little ones like Joe will have no problem surviving. Technology and new advances will extend viability. My infant brother died of a collapsed lung 48 years ago. Had he been born today he would have lived.

It breaks my heart that woman all over the world abort babies older than Joe was simply because they want to.

God Bless
 

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I have problems with the abortion of viable foetuses (save for in serious cases). However, they're a world away from first-trimester embryos.
 
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vergiss said:
I have problems with the abortion of viable foetuses (save for in serious cases). However, they're a world away from first-trimester embryos.
I have to remind you right from conception the Baby or as you say first time embryo has his or her own DNA. DNA that is human and you can not tell what stage of developement that person is in.
 

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
I have to remind you right from conception the Baby or as you say first time embryo has his or her own DNA. DNA that is human and you can not tell what stage of developement that person is in.
I'm pretty sure you can tell a zygote from an adolescent.
 

tecoyah

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
I have to remind you right from conception the Baby or as you say first time embryo has his or her own DNA. DNA that is human and you can not tell what stage of developement that person is in.
I have to remind you that my fingernail clippings also have DNA that is distinctly human....as does sperm and egg before conception. There are appox. 4 running threads in this forum attempting to define what makes us a human bieng, and what this might possibly mean for the abortion debate in general. None of these threads have manages to get past the emotion that clouds the entire issue, mainly due to the type of heartstring manipulation your new Avatar represents.
As with all debate the personal opinion of those involved is important, and effects the outcome in the end. But, emotional response tends to relinquish actual Data to a background conversation, rather than placing logic, and accepted fact into the forefront....which would allow for decisive debate. In my core I feel for your loss, and understand where your beliefs come from to a certain extent because of the background you have shared....but I simply cannot allow one persons life experience to make the science go away.

Thank you for sharing the picture of beauty....and yourself.
 

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tecoyah said:
I have to remind you that my fingernail clippings also have DNA that is distinctly human....as does sperm and egg before conception. .
You can point to the individual human person to whom the clippings/egg/sperm originated from....where does the human DNA of an aborted zef come from?

Him or herself.

As I said in another thread--just because you cannot point to a "body" from which the DNA derived--the existence of the human being is not eliminated. People reduced to ash in the World Trade Centers LIVED--they were human beings--human persons. Even if all that is left is a smudge of cells of that unique entity--the human being LIVED. Unique individual DNA denotes a unique individual human life. Your fingernail's DNA would not be unique--it would be your DNA.
 

vergiss

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
Not from DNA.
And the award for the Most "What the hell does your post have to do with what I said" Post goes to...

So what about identical twins, Felicity? Do they not meet the requirements necessary to be an individual being, given that they share the same DNA?
 

Felicity

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vergiss said:
And the award for the Most "What the hell does your post have to do with what I said" Post goes to...

?
I think he means zygote DNA that says "human" is different from adolescent DNA that says "human" only in that it indicates they are two different humans--not the age/development/anything else--they are the same biologically thus both are individual human beings.

So what about identical twins, Felicity? Do they not meet the requirements necessary to be an individual being, given that they share the same DNA
They are seperate entities. In an abortion it would be moot wouldn't it?
Furthermore:
http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=142
Recently scientists have found a new type of difference between identical twins. Everyone has marks in their DNA that help control which parts of your DNA get used where (click here to learn more about these marks).

Scientists have shown that identical twins have very similar marks when they are born. But, as they age, the marks in their DNA become more and more different. So even though identical twins have the same DNA, they are using it in different ways.


Also--if identical twins were killed in WTC....maybe you couldn't PROVE both were killed...but that wouldn't negate the fact that both LIVED. That seems to support rather than oppose what I'm saying.
 
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vergiss

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1. And what does that have to do with what I said?

2. Why'd it be moot? Plenty of women with multiple pregnancies abort one or more of the embryos, and let others continue development.
 

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vergiss said:
1. And what does that have to do with what I said?

.

You said:
I'm pretty sure you can tell a zygote from an adolescent.
And the point is no--you can't tell the difference if all you look at is DNA--thus they are the same type of being. If you can't kill an adolescent because killing human beings is wrong--you morally can't kill a zygote for the same reason.

2. Why'd it be moot? Plenty of women with multiple pregnancies abort one or more of the embryos, and let others continue development
Well--that just further evidences the distinction between the "individual's"--one set of DNA is eliminated and another is not. That's why it's moot, by making the distinction, you point out the uniqueness of the individual. Also--although it can happen, usually identical twins are in the same sac and you couldn't abort on without aborting both. (I think....I'm certain on that...)
 

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1. Did you even see my original post that she'd replied to?

2. So an embryo is an individual being because it has unique DNA, and the embryos of identical twins are also individual beings despite not having unique DNA?!
 

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vergiss said:
1. Did you even see my original post that she'd replied to?

2. So an embryo is an individual being because it has unique DNA, and the embryos of identical twins are also individual beings despite not having unique DNA?!
1. No....
2. Yes and no..Yes identical twins are individuals--seperate and on their own, and no their DNA is identical at it's origin but not perminantly expressed so..it is the seperate individuality that is primary--the DNA is usually the clincher--but in the case of I-twins the distictness of the individual appears slightly later than the rest of the population.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0001616A-93A1-12C5-93A183414B7F0000

http://www.emaxhealth.com/8/2705.html

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/fob1.asp
 
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tecoyah said:
I have to remind you that my fingernail clippings also have DNA that is distinctly human.

Again the DNA is from a human a person just like DNA from a Baby in womb from conception.

.as does sperm and egg before conception.

Yes again from a person After conception the DNA identifies a new individual.

There are appox. 4 running threads in this forum attempting to define what makes us a human bieng, and what this might possibly mean for the abortion debate in general. None of these threads have manages to get past the emotion that clouds the entire issue, mainly due to the type of heartstring manipulation your new Avatar represents.

Killing someone is very emotional to me. Emotion is very important part of this debate "Love one another" is also a commandment for Christians, & Jews That includes the unborn. There is no manipulation this is my opinion and how I feel it comes from the heart

As with all debate the personal opinion of those involved is important, and effects the outcome in the end. But, emotional response tends to relinquish actual Data

I disagree Again killing someone is an emotional issue.

to a background conversation, rather than placing logic, and accepted fact into the forefront....which would allow for decisive debate.

It is not natural or logical to kill someone.especially the innocent.

In my core I feel for your loss, and understand where your beliefs come from to a certain extent because of the background you have shared....but I simply cannot allow one persons life experience to make the science go away.

What Science ? it is on our side. Each passing year vibility is becoming fewer and fewer weeks. DNA has shown the baby is a person. Look at my signature at the bottom of the page. Abortion has a direct relationship on taxes our children will have to pay to support the older generation. It might be ironic the generation that made abortion legal might be the generation aborted in their old age.

Thank you for sharing the picture of beauty....and yourself.
I do not know how to take that as you did not call my son a Baby.
 

tecoyah

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
I do not know how to take that as you did not call my son a Baby.
It was meant as a thank you...for showing a thing of beauty....sheesh. Hows this:

Thank you for showing us all your beautiful Baby.

By the way....I am pro life....And pro choice. You may not understand how this is possible....but I really dont care anymore.
 

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And the point is no--you can't tell the difference if all you look at is DNA--thus they are the same type of being. If you can't kill an adolescent because killing human beings is wrong--you morally can't kill a zygote for the same reason.
This arguement doesn't make any sense. DNA is merely the blue print for your physiology, it doesn't equate to an individual. As tecoyah pointed out, my fingernail clippings have exact copies of my DNA in them, and based on blind DNA tests you couldn't determine which sample was actually ME and which was my fingernails. By your arguement my fingernail clippings and I are the same type of being, and thus I can't throw them out because it would be morally wrong. If I were to grow a culture of liver cells from my body in a petri dish, would it be morally wrong to "kill" that growth? After all, I can't distinguish based on DNA whether that growth is an individual or not.
 

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
I do not know how to take that as you did not call my son a Baby.
Oh, whinge whinge. He called it "beauty", and you find something to complain about?
 
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vergiss said:
Oh, whinge whinge. He called it "beauty", and you find something to complain about?
An inadament object can be called beauty But that point is mute since because he responded and then called my baby a baby.

Now as for you. You just refered to my Baby as an "it" well here is something to think about.

“it”

it" The Pro Abotionist refer to another human being as "it" It brings to mind the character on the TV show "The Adams Family" You know the guy with the hat and hair down to his feet. Now all you Pro Choice People you are being creepy & spooky,Mysterious and Kooky. Now I'll have that song playing in my head all day. Thinking Cousin "It" is in someones womb. "it" what a ridiculas thought "It" another Human Being. "It" So sad someone can think that way. "it" To all Pro Abortion people were the 5 babies my wife and I lost were they to "it" They all could have been legally aborted? "it' another word for Baby, Human being, in the Pro abortion dictionary. It makes it easier to tear an "it" apart during the abortion process limbs, heart, head, torso ripped to threads "it" is then place in a red Biological waste bag."it" might find "it's' way into a sewer. Anyway "it" died and "it" was killed, Yes "it" was murdered. Suddenly the Adams Family song stop playing stoped playing in my head.
 

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I was refering to the picture as "it"! :roll:

Besides, technically, the baby is a corpse.
 

tecoyah

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
An inadament object can be called beauty But that point is mute since because he responded and then called my baby a baby.

Now as for you. You just refered to my Baby as an "it" well here is something to think about.

“it”

it" The Pro Abotionist refer to another human being as "it" It brings to mind the character on the TV show "The Adams Family" You know the guy with the hat and hair down to his feet. Now all you Pro Choice People you are being creepy & spooky,Mysterious and Kooky. Now I'll have that song playing in my head all day. Thinking Cousin "It" is in someones womb. "it" what a ridiculas thought "It" another Human Being. "It" So sad someone can think that way. "it" To all Pro Abortion people were the 5 babies my wife and I lost were they to "it" They all could have been legally aborted? "it' another word for Baby, Human being, in the Pro abortion dictionary. It makes it easier to tear an "it" apart during the abortion process limbs, heart, head, torso ripped to threads "it" is then place in a red Biological waste bag."it" might find "it's' way into a sewer. Anyway "it" died and "it" was killed, Yes "it" was murdered. Suddenly the Adams Family song stop playing stoped playing in my head.

Seriously Man....have you ever considered therapy....it might help. I was considering recommending such the first time you posted this.....uh....statement. Councelling is nothing to be ashamed of, and can benefit you in many ways.
 

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vergiss said:
I was refering to the picture as "it"! :roll:

Besides, technically, the baby is a corpse.
Oooooh...NOT nice! I understand the "picture" point...but that is his SON. I'm sure at 17, you don't appreciate what that really means so hopefully your very insensative comment will be recieved with the understanding of your lack of life experience.
 

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Felicity said:
Oooooh...NOT nice! I understand the "picture" point...but that is his SON. I'm sure at 17, you don't appreciate what that really means so hopefully your very insensative comment will be recieved with the understanding of your lack of life experience.
Insensitive? Hey, he was the one ordering everyone to call the baby by what it was. Prove to me that it's not, and then I'll be "insensitive". :roll: Otherwise, I'm just saying what's true.
 
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vergiss said:
I was refering to the picture as "it"! :roll:

Besides, technically, the baby is a corpse.

Finally you did call my Baby a Baby as he really is. Yes you are also correct Physically he is a corpse, spiritually I know I will hold him in heaven.
 

vergiss

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
Finally you did call my Baby a Baby as he really is. Yes you are also correct Physically he is a corpse, spiritually I know I will hold him in heaven.
Good, you can desist with the paranoia. We weren't avoiding calling him baby just because the word never popped up in context.

As can you with your life experience bullshit, Felicity. See? He said it himself.
 
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