I drove my first electric car yesterday

[Woodman909]

A buddy of mine recently got his own Nissan Leaf and let me drive it. Interestingly, this is not the guy you would expect to get a plug-in. He's a strong partisan republican. He generally opposes most social and political ideas not embraced by the right but is wiling to listen and engage in respectful conversations without getting emotional about his side's defense like most people I know. Nevertheless, I was surprised.

He says he was the perfect candidate for it. He lives within 5 miles of work and his wife has an SUV that they can use for longer road trips or can swap with her on days he needs to drive more that 100 miles, which is rare but if such a situation occurs he's got a back up plan. Instead of buying it, he's leasing. The lease payment is $250 a month, upgraded from the $199 a month plan. He has to stay under 15,000 miles a year, which being so close to work isn't a problem. He traded in another car, which he was dumping $300 a month worth of gas into. The Leaf has a really good power consumption calculator in the dash so its easy to figure out how much its costing to recharge. He says he's spending an additional $7 a month in electricity. Total costs: $257 a month. However for him, its a net wash since he no longer is spending $300 in gas and is essentially getting paid $43 a month to drive a new car. After about a couple of weeks the question hit him, why doesn't everybody drive one of these?

He let me take it for a spin, I started it up and it was dead quiet except for a few beeps and the fans from the air conditioning. Inside was roomier than my Toyota Matrix. All kinds of bells and whistles like syncing your smart phone to the stereo and he can use the car's app to turn on the air conditioning before he gets to his car if he knows he's on the way to the car. It drives smoothly but I thought the breaks were slightly sticky he says is due to breaking regeneration as the car's tires double as electric generators that help recharge the battery when coasting and breaking. No oil changes or any other routine maintenance except wiper blades, tires and eventually brakes. Since its a newer technology they aren't sure about how the battery will hold out long term; 10 years + but he'll be out of his lease by then.

Gotta wonder if your savings in fuel and typical maintenance will be eaten up twofold once you see the price tag of the replacement battery. From your OP you have a wonderfully gracious condescending tone when describing your friend. You and your other 'progressive' friends are obviously so much more intelligent and advanced free thinkers. Especially for a technology that is still not ready for prime time. When it's ready, anyone who needs a vehicle will be able to pick one up that fits their budget. Now? not so much.

Is your republican friend a black men, but for your pleasure, also well spoken?

 

[X Factor]

I'm of the opinion that if people want to stop subsidies for electrics than we should also stop subsidies for oil.

I'm actually kind of ok with that. Since only the people who could afford the gas would be able to drive cars, that would cut way down on traffic. The subsidies need to end for everyone, regardless of income - no gas welfare and no sob stories about the poor not being able to afford to drive, agreed?

 

[X Factor]

If you can afford to drive a 10 MPG gas guzzler then knock yourself out - but I don't want to subsidize your addiction.

Now you know how conservatives feel. Lol.

 

[Smeagol]

Gotta wonder if your savings in fuel and typical maintenance will be eaten up twofold once you see the price tag of the replacement battery. From your OP you have a wonderfully gracious condescending tone when describing your friend. You and your other 'progressive' friends are obviously so much more intelligent and advanced free thinkers. Especially for a technology that is still not ready for prime time. When it's ready, anyone who needs a vehicle will be able to pick one up that fits their budget. Now? not so much.

Is your republican friend a black men, but for your pleasure, also well spoken?

LOL. Condescending? Progressive? This is too much! :lamo

My friend isn't black. Not sure if I understand the last part of your question. He's a pretty sharp guy and is a public relations spokesman.

I think comparison problems do arise however because although plug-ins and internal combustion engine cars are both types of cars, they aren't really similar enough to simply look at the MSRP pricing. Internal combustion engine cars require more of ongoing routine maintenance that electric cars don't need. Secondly, and the most obvious is the cost of gasoline vs. a higher electric bill is exponentially higher for traditional cars. Lastly, other than the battery electric cars are reported to outlast traditional gasoline cars by a lot. The questions that are outstanding are how much longer will they last and what will it cost to replace the battery? Currently, the technology being used in significant numbers on the streets is so new the answers are still pending. That all said, I concur the internal combustion engine car is still a better deal FOR NOW when purchasing but the deal my friend got leasing his Nissan Leaf I think brings them into the same price range if not less expensive considering he never has to buy gas and can actually recharge for free is if wants to avoid the $4 to $7 a month electric bill by going to the mall where they presently offer free recharges using faster recharge equipment than he has at home while you shop in a special section of the mall parking lot.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

LOL. Condescending? Progressive? This is too much! :lamo

My friend isn't black. Not sure if I understand the last part of your question. He's a pretty sharp guy and is a public relations spokesman.

I think comparison problems do arise however because although plug-ins and internal combustion engine cars are both types of cars, they aren't really similar enough to simply look at the MSRP pricing. Internal combustion engine cars require more of ongoing routine maintenance that electric cars don't need. Secondly, and the most obvious is the cost of gasoline vs. a higher electric bill is exponentially higher for traditional cars. Lastly, other than the battery electric cars are reported to outlast traditional gasoline cars by a lot. The questions that are outstanding are how much longer will they last and what will it cost to replace the battery? Currently, the technology being used significant numbers on the streets is so new the answers are still pending. That all said, I concur the internal combustion engine car is still a better deal FOR NOW when purchasing but the deal my friend got leasing his Nissan Leaf I think brings them into the same price range in not less expensive considering he never has to buy gas and can actually recharge for free is if wants to avoid the $4 to $7 a month electric bill by going to the mall where they presently offer free recharges using faster recharge equipment than he has at home while you shop in a special section of the mall parking lot.

Your friend may be a great guy but he either got suckered by a slick car salesman or he flunked basic math. When you crunch the numbers you lose money with an electric car, lots of money! The battery replacement and plug in cost are close to even with a gas car but you never recoup your upfront cost on purchasing the car itself. You can get a little gas sipper commute car for around 17K vs :




2013 Mitsubishi i - $30,825
16 kWh battery, 62 miles (EPA), 112 MPGe, 66 kW motor

It may no longer be the cheapest EV on the market, but 112 MPGe still means the Mitsubishi i is one of the more efficient electric cars. If you can live with the looks and limited range, it's worth a look.

2013 Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid - $32,795
5.2 kWh battery, 11 miles (EPA blended), 6 miles (EPA all-EV), 95 MPGe, 60 kW motor (134-hp combined)

The Prius Plug-In is the second-best selling car with a plug, after the Chevy Volt. It's a little off the pace technologically these days, but should at least suit drivers trading up from a regular Prius. The short all-electric range is disappointing to some, though.

2013 Ford C-MAX Energi - $33,745
7.6 kWh battery, 21 miles (EPA), 100 MPGe, 88 kW motor (195-hp combined)

Ford's first plug-in hybrid challenger mixes good performance with impressive efficiency in electric mode. Like the Toyota Prius V, it's a practical vehicle too, ready to handle everything family life can throw at it.

 

[Smeagol]

I'm actually kind of ok with that. Since only the people who could afford the gas would be able to drive cars, that would cut way down on traffic. The subsidies need to end for everyone, regardless of income - no gas welfare and no sob stories about the poor not being able to afford to drive, agreed?

I think an argument could be made that that could cripple the economy since a lot of people wouldn't be about to afford to go to work every day. Its way less expensive to subsidize gas than to pay unemployment benefits. However, I think MoSurveyor has a valid point to consider when trying to justify subsidies for electric cars. This, not to mention the through the roof military cost we pay to "protect our vital interests" all directly as a result of our only oil transportation monopoly.

 

[Smeagol]

Your friend may be a great guy but he either got suckered by a slick car salesman or he flunked basic math. When you crunch the numbers you lose money with an electric car, lots of money! The battery replacement and plug in cost are close to even with a gas car but you never recoup your upfront cost on purchasing the car itself. You can get a little gas sipper commute car for around 17K vs :




2013 Mitsubishi i - $30,825
16 kWh battery, 62 miles (EPA), 112 MPGe, 66 kW motor

It may no longer be the cheapest EV on the market, but 112 MPGe still means the Mitsubishi i is one of the more efficient electric cars. If you can live with the looks and limited range, it's worth a look.

2013 Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid - $32,795
5.2 kWh battery, 11 miles (EPA blended), 6 miles (EPA all-EV), 95 MPGe, 60 kW motor (134-hp combined)

The Prius Plug-In is the second-best selling car with a plug, after the Chevy Volt. It's a little off the pace technologically these days, but should at least suit drivers trading up from a regular Prius. The short all-electric range is disappointing to some, though.

2013 Ford C-MAX Energi - $33,745
7.6 kWh battery, 21 miles (EPA), 100 MPGe, 88 kW motor (195-hp combined)

Ford's first plug-in hybrid challenger mixes good performance with impressive efficiency in electric mode. Like the Toyota Prius V, it's a practical vehicle too, ready to handle everything family life can throw at it.

He didn't buy is car, he's leasing at $250 a month. He'll hand back the keys long before the battery needs to be replaced.

It is true that battery replacement on electric cars is a huge concern but when in the life of the car will it need to be replaced? Secondly, how much will they cost by then? There is all kinds of R&D on electric car batteries going on right now including at least one game-changing battery out of Chicago that will reportedly increase a car like the Nissan Leaf's range from 100 miles on a fully charged battery to 500 to 1,000 miles. They aren't the only one's creating better batteries. When people have options, products get better and prices fall.

 

[X Factor]

I think an argument could be made that that could cripple the economy since a lot of people wouldn't be about to afford to go to work every day. Its way less expensive to subsidize gas than to pay unemployment benefits. However, I think MoSurveyor has a valid point to consider when trying to justify subsidies for electric cars. This, not to mention the through the roof military cost we pay to "protect our vital interests" all directly as a result of our only oil transportation monopoly.

And why do you think it's a vital interest? You just said it. It's you guys who are lamenting oil subsidies. You've convinced me. Good job. Leave the gas and oil only for those who can afford it. Do we all agree to that?

 

[jonny5]

A buddy of mine recently got his own Nissan Leaf and let me drive it. Interestingly, this is not the guy you would expect to get a plug-in. He's a strong partisan republican. He generally opposes most social and political ideas not embraced by the right but is wiling to listen and engage in respectful conversations without getting emotional about his side's defense like most people I know. Nevertheless, I was surprised.

He says he was the perfect candidate for it. He lives within 5 miles of work and his wife has an SUV that they can use for longer road trips or can swap with her on days he needs to drive more that 100 miles, which is rare but if such a situation occurs he's got a back up plan. Instead of buying it, he's leasing. The lease payment is $250 a month, upgraded from the $199 a month plan. He has to stay under 15,000 miles a year, which being so close to work isn't a problem. He traded in another car, which he was dumping $300 a month worth of gas into. The Leaf has a really good power consumption calculator in the dash so its easy to figure out how much its costing to recharge. He says he's spending an additional $7 a month in electricity. Total costs: $257 a month. However for him, its a net wash since he no longer is spending $300 in gas and is essentially getting paid $43 a month to drive a new car. After about a couple of weeks the question hit him, why doesn't everybody drive one of these?

He let me take it for a spin, I started it up and it was dead quiet except for a few beeps and the fans from the air conditioning. Inside was roomier than my Toyota Matrix. All kinds of bells and whistles like syncing your smart phone to the stereo and he can use the car's app to turn on the air conditioning before he gets to his car if he knows he's on the way to the car. It drives smoothly but I thought the breaks were slightly sticky he says is due to breaking regeneration as the car's tires double as electric generators that help recharge the battery when coasting and breaking. No oil changes or any other routine maintenance except wiper blades, tires and eventually brakes. Since its a newer technology they aren't sure about how the battery will hold out long term; 10 years + but he'll be out of his lease by then.

Same answer as always as to why everyone doesnt drive one. They are too expensive, lack range and refueling time and availability, as well as horsepower, capacity, and style.

 

[Smeagol]

And why do you think it's a vital interest? You just said it. It's you guys who are lamenting oil subsidies. You've convinced me. Good job. Leave the gas and oil only for those who can afford it. Do we all agree to that?

I didn't create the phrase. I recall first hearing "we must protect our vital interests" when I was younger and President George HW Bush was selling the country on our need to militarily drive Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. I also think its a dangerous state of affairs when America would come to a screeching halt economically is the free flow of oil out of the Middle East is in some way interrupted, despite it only representing a fraction of our need. This coupled with the fact that the Middle East is probably the most anti-American region on earth with a significant percentage of the population willing to commit suicide if they get to kill some of us in the process.

 

[jonny5]

As do the advantages the government gives to oil companies. Of course, you guys never complain about those subsidies. :roll:

What oil subsidies?

 

[MoSurveyor]

Gotta wonder if your savings in fuel and typical maintenance will be eaten up twofold once you see the price tag of the replacement battery.

No, it won't be. You should do the math.

 

[MoSurveyor]

Now you know how conservatives feel. Lol.

I'm subsidizing your addiction right now and have been for a LOT more than a few years. Get a clue.

 

[MoSurveyor]

I'm actually kind of ok with that. Since only the people who could afford the gas would be able to drive cars, that would cut way down on traffic. The subsidies need to end for everyone, regardless of income - no gas welfare and no sob stories about the poor not being able to afford to drive, agreed?

:lamo Laying the blame on the poor! How typical for a conservative! :lamo

 

[MoSurveyor]

Your friend may be a great guy but he either got suckered by a slick car salesman or he flunked basic math. When you crunch the numbers you lose money with an electric car, lots of money! The battery replacement and plug in cost are close to even with a gas car but you never recoup your upfront cost on purchasing the car itself. You can get a little gas sipper commute car for around 17K vs :

2013 Mitsubishi i - $30,825
16 kWh battery, 62 miles (EPA), 112 MPGe, 66 kW motor

It may no longer be the cheapest EV on the market, but 112 MPGe still means the Mitsubishi i is one of the more efficient electric cars. If you can live with the looks and limited range, it's worth a look.

2013 Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid - $32,795
5.2 kWh battery, 11 miles (EPA blended), 6 miles (EPA all-EV), 95 MPGe, 60 kW motor (134-hp combined)

The Prius Plug-In is the second-best selling car with a plug, after the Chevy Volt. It's a little off the pace technologically these days, but should at least suit drivers trading up from a regular Prius. The short all-electric range is disappointing to some, though.

2013 Ford C-MAX Energi - $33,745
7.6 kWh battery, 21 miles (EPA), 100 MPGe, 88 kW motor (195-hp combined)

Ford's first plug-in hybrid challenger mixes good performance with impressive efficiency in electric mode. Like the Toyota Prius V, it's a practical vehicle too, ready to handle everything family life can throw at it.

Don't forget to add that $12 grand for gas and maintenance on your cheapie "sipper" ...

 

[KevinKohler]

It all comes from the same place. The sun. Electric cars will be the bee's knees when oil (fossilized photosythesized sunlight) becomes more scarce. And it will, that is a simple matter of inevitability.


But for now, electric cars cost too much. At least for me, for what you get.

 

[MoSurveyor]

I think an argument could be made that that could cripple the economy since a lot of people wouldn't be about to afford to go to work every day. Its way less expensive to subsidize gas than to pay unemployment benefits. However, I think MoSurveyor has a valid point to consider when trying to justify subsidies for electric cars. This, not to mention the through the roof military cost we pay to "protect our vital interests" all directly as a result of our only oil transportation monopoly.

Exactly what I've been saying for years, too.

 

[MoSurveyor]

What oil subsidies?

Find them in another thread, I went through all of them there - not the least of which is the incredibly cheap deals we give them for drilling compared to the private sector.

 

[X Factor]

:lamo Laying the blame on the poor! How typical for a conservative! :lamo

What? I thought you opposed oil subsidies? I say I'm liking the idea. Sure gas'll get expensive but without all those cars on the road, I'll have to use less of it. Can we agree that nobody is entitled to less expensive gas?

 

[KevinKohler]

Don't forget to add that $12 grand for gas and maintenance on your cheapie "sipper" ...

Eh...that's dependent on the person. I bought my civic in 05', and so far, I've done the brakes once (myself), and changed the spark plugs. I do one oil change per year (full synthetic). Couldn't tell you how much gas has gone in it, but it's an average of about 40 bucks per month. Car gets around 35 mpg average when driven normally (no popping VTEC, YO!).


12 grand? Not likely. And it's important to note that I don't require a degree in electrical engineering to perform my own maintenance on my civic. Saves me tons over the alternative...having to pay someone else to do it.

 

[MoSurveyor]

What? I thought you opposed oil subsidies? I say I'm liking the idea. Sure gas'll get expensive but without all those cars on the road, I'll have to use less of it. Can we agree that nobody is entitled to less expensive gas?

Yep, no problem with that. Everybody pays the same for food, too. :shrug:

 

[MoSurveyor]

Eh...that's dependent on the person. I bought my civic in 05', and so far, I've done the brakes once (myself), and changed the spark plugs. I do one oil change per year (full synthetic). Couldn't tell you how much gas has gone in it, but it's an average of about 40 bucks per month. Car gets around 35 mpg average when driven normally (no popping VTEC, YO!).
12 grand? Not likely. And it's important to note that I don't require a degree in electrical engineering to perform my own maintenance on my civic. Saves me tons over the alternative...having to pay someone else to do it.

35 MPH @ $3.50 per gallon over 100k miles is $10,000 all by itself. :shrug:

Doing your own maintenance is something few people do anymore. I do my own as well but it's rare for the population as a whole. Two oil changes a year for ~7 years @ 15k miles/year (that's $350 of Mobile1 if you use 5 qts, only $280 if you use 4 qts. and another $50 for cheap filters), transmission service at least once, coolant system at least once, drive belts and other misc once or twice. It all adds up over 100k miles - and that's assuming you have no non-maintenance drive-train issues. Even doing your own work you're well over $500, well over $1k if someone else does it.

 

[clownboy]

He didn't buy is car, he's leasing at $250 a month. He'll hand back the keys long before the battery needs to be replaced.

It is true that battery replacement on electric cars is a huge concern but when in the life of the car will it need to be replaced? Secondly, how much will they cost by then? There is all kinds of R&D on electric car batteries going on right now including at least one game-changing battery out of Chicago that will reportedly increase a car like the Nissan Leaf's range from 100 miles on a fully charged battery to 500 to 1,000 miles. They aren't the only one's creating better batteries. When people have options, products get better and prices fall.

The manual for the Prius says the battery will need replacement every 3-8 years depending upon [proper] use. A new battery is about 3K + the processing charge for doing away with the old battery + whatever the mechanics charge for installation.

There are no game changers on the horizon for electrical storage for electric vehicles. There are some cheats and workarounds (battery replacement as refueling for example), but everything groundbreaking that has been proposed are just that - being proposed. Development and actualization are years/decades down the line.

 

[clownboy]

35 MPH @ $3.50 per gallon over 100k miles is $10,000 all by itself. :shrug:

Doing your own maintenance is something few people do anymore. I do my own as well but it's rare for the population as a whole.

Yes, that has changed, certain manufacturers have made it more difficult by the year for the average user to do their own maintenance. But electric vehicles are not maintenance free. In fact the only maintenance they avoid that their gas driven cousins need is the engine oil change. Electric vehicles still need chassis lube, they still have transmission and rear ends that require fluid maintenance just as gas driven machines do. In fact to make up for it they also have quite a few more sophisticated and expensive sensors that can, and do, tank on occasion requiring maintenance.

Good example, the regenerative braking system. Radical difference in cost of a normal brake job.

 

[MoSurveyor]

The manual for the Prius says the battery will need replacement every 3-8 years depending upon [proper] use. A new battery is about 3K + the processing charge for doing away with the old battery + whatever the mechanics charge for installation.

Wow! That's cheaper than I thought! That actually makes electrics cheaper over 100k miles because I've been assuming $10k per battery.