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I despise what the Trump administration has done to the Kurds ... how will non-Americans feel?

That land belongs to Syria, not the Kurds.

I mean damn! You people actually think the Kurds have their own country...lol
I don't understand why a given Kurdish tribe can't just pick a country (Turkey, Iraq, etc) and set up shop as a Kurdish'Iraquis or Kurdish'Turks. Why do they need their own country, exactly? What are they going to do with the land that isn't already being done?

And pardon my ignorance but wouldn't a Kurdish country just suppress women anyway? I don't see the point of it all.
 
I don't understand why a given Kurdish tribe can't just pick a country (Turkey, Iraq, etc) and set up shop as a Kurdish'Iraquis or Kurdish'Turks. Why do they need their own country, exactly? What are they going to do with the land that isn't already being done?

And pardon my ignorance but wouldn't a Kurdish country just suppress women anyway? I don't see the point of it all.

Erdogan is still sore about the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. The Kurds have always wanted their own country as most people do who have a unique culture and an historical connection to a certain region, imo.

Partition of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

This all stems from the end of WW1 and lies at the feet of the negligent and the French.
 
Erdogan is still sore about the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. The Kurds have always wanted their own country as most people do who have a unique culture and an historical connection to a certain region, imo.

Partition of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

This all stems from the end of WW1 and lies at the feet of the negligent and the French.
That doesn't answer any of my questions.
 
We should stipulate that conservatives don't care about American blood or treasure, so we can dispense with those as excuses for the purpose of this thread. Whatever their motivation for abandoning the Kurds, it has nothing to do with saving American lives or saving money.
 
We should stipulate that conservatives don't care about American blood or treasure, so we can dispense with those as excuses for the purpose of this thread. Whatever their motivation for abandoning the Kurds, it has nothing to do with saving American lives or saving money.

Were American lives ever at risk here?
 
Were American lives ever at risk here?

The United States had after 17 years of learning lessons the hard way come upon a formula that allows us to advance and defend our National Security Interests without risking lives excessively. While ISIS IS NOT defeated the Caliphate was attrited to the point of no longer functioning at the cost of 4 US servicemen. Kurdish losses in that same fight, 11,000 dead.

We just gave up the best tool we ever devised through 17 years of trial and error. We gave it up in a blink of Trumpkin's eye. We gave up a very strategic ME position that was costing us all of 1,000 to 2,000 troopers in place in the blink of Trumpkin's eye. NOBODY will trust the United States again in a deal that gives so much of their lives and treasure certainly not until Trumpkin is gone and probably several years after that. HINT, HINT, Strong HINT. Do we Americans have to be hit over the head with a grand piano HINT!!!

The Turks are rejecting the Pence description of what just happened claiming that they have not agreed to a ceasefire. The Kurds reject the description of how much territory is claimed by Turkey. What did Pence and Pompeo do, fly to Turkey to circle jerk each other.

Kurds are streaming into the Syrian desert just as winter comes upon it. That is the option being left them, disarm over a vast area that included their homes or stream into the desert just ahead of winter. Does that not sound like a strange outcome for fighting with us and attriting the Caliphate at a cost of 11,000 of their lives? Sounds more like the Internationalization of "all this winning" to me.
 
The United States had after 17 years of learning lessons the hard way come upon a formula that allows us to advance and defend our National Security Interests without risking lives excessively. While ISIS IS NOT defeated the Caliphate was attrited to the point of no longer functioning at the cost of 4 US servicemen. Kurdish losses in that same fight, 11,000 dead.

We just gave up the best tool we ever devised through 17 years of trial and error. We gave it up in a blink of Trumpkin's eye. We gave up a very strategic ME position that was costing us all of 1,000 to 2,000 troopers in place in the blink of Trumpkin's eye. NOBODY will trust the United States again in a deal that gives so much of their lives and treasure certainly not until Trumpkin is gone and probably several years after that. HINT, HINT, Strong HINT. Do we Americans have to be hit over the head with a grand piano HINT!!!

The Turks are rejecting the Pence description of what just happened claiming that they have not agreed to a ceasefire. The Kurds reject the description of how much territory is claimed by Turkey. What did Pence and Pompeo do, fly to Turkey to circle jerk each other.

Kurds are streaming into the Syrian desert just as winter comes upon it. That is the option being left them, disarm over a vast area that included their homes or stream into the desert just ahead of winter. Does that not sound like a strange outcome for fighting with us and attriting the Caliphate at a cost of 11,000 of their lives? It sounds more like the Internationalization of "all this winning" to me.
What was the tool we gave up? And I mean, exactly, what was the tool. Not rhetoric, but literally, what was the tool?

Why are the Kurds fighting with Turkey in the first place? Why don't the Kurds just take Turkish citizenship and be Kurdish'Turks the same way we have African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans?

On a basic human level, I don't want the Kurds to suffer and die, but on a social level I'm thinking "just get with the program and stop all the fighting already".
 
What was the tool we gave up? And I mean, exactly, what was the tool. Not rhetoric, but literally, what was the tool?

Why are the Kurds fighting with Turkey in the first place? Why don't the Kurds just take Turkish citizenship and be Kurdish'Turks the same way we have African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans?

Are you dense. Can't read maybe.

We gave up the ability to convince a possible ally willing to take on the potential for losses in a ratio of 11,000/4 in pursuit of mutual interests that include OUR National Security Interests to ally with us in such an effort. Nobody but nobody will trust us in that sort of alliance again. We will not likely even be able to maintain strategic positions around the world without deploying our more traditional massive outlay of defense assets along with all their cost and risk of American lives.

The only possible argument that can explain the willingness to accept this loss is the totally absurd notion that in a world that now includes cyber and space as battlegrounds we can just build a wall around ourselves and pull down the blinds. That did not work in 1914, nor in 1940. It sure in hell is not going to work in the 21st Century.
 
I despise what the Trump administration has done to the Kurds in America's name. Trump has given Ergodan everything he wants. He has decimated our ability to gain trustworthy allies.

If Americans feel this way about what Trump has turned our country into, how will people in the Middle East feel? People who have better weapons and less reason for restraint than pissed off Americans sitting in our comfortable homes feel.

Trump has done so much damage to our national security. He has fortified the recruitment of the next generation of jihadists and criminal gangs on multiple continents with nothing to lose and every reason to hate us.

I know how you feel. I despised Obama for what he did for 8 years also.
 
Are you dense. Can't read maybe.

We gave up the ability to convince a possible ally willing to take on the potential for losses in a ratio of 11,000/4 in pursuit of mutual interests that include OUR National Security Interests to ally with us in such an effort. Nobody but nobody will trust us in that sort of alliance again. We will not likely even be able to maintain strategic positions around the world without deploying our more traditional massive outlay of defense assets along with all their cost and risk of American lives.

The only possible argument that can explain the willingness to accept this loss is the totally absurd notion that in a world that now includes cyber and space as battlegrounds we can just build a wall around ourselves and pull down the blinds. That did not work in 1914, nor in 1940. It sure in hell is not going to work in the 21st Century.

An 11,000:4 ratio means they lost 11,000 troops for every 4 enemies they killed.

Maybe instead of questioning the literacy of others, you should take a good long look at yourself.

And you still haven't identified what tool we gave up, why we should be involved int he Kurd-Turk conflict to begin with, or why the Kurds are even fighting at all in the first place.
 
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An 11,000:4 ratio means they lost 11,000 troops for every 4 enemies they killed.

Maybe instead of questioning the literacy of others, you should take a good long look at yourself.

And you still haven't identified what tool we gave up, why we should be involved int he Kurd-Turk conflict to begin with, or why the Kurds are even fighting at all in the first place.

No...in an alliance its the individual alliance loses that are the topic. They lost 11,000. We lost 4.

Maybe you should question your reading skills. The point of the post was our ability to create an alliance like the one we had with the Kurds. The specific benefit to us was that 11,000/4 ratio in loss of life in pursuit of our National Security Interests. You want to define the topic in a manner that was not part of the discussion, joint alliance losses to adversary losses.

This is a debate forum. If you tried that in debate, the debate judges would simply slap you down. You either show up prepared to debate or not. If you want to show up and obfuscate (popular around here lately) go find DebateObfuscation and post there.
 
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No, I suggest we don't stab our allies in the back. Where is the honor in that?

Wouldn't be the first time. Between them France, Britain and the US conspired to shaft Poland by gifting half of the country to Stalin after WW2, leaving my refugee mother and grandmother stateless. The Russians had already murdered my grandfather during the 1939 invasion.
 
No...in an alliance its the individual alliance loses that are the topic. They lost 11,000. We lost 4.

Maybe you should question your reading skills. The point of the post was our ability to create an alliance like the one we had with the Kurds. The specific benefit to us was that 11,000/4 ratio in loss of life in pursuit of our National Security Interests. You want to define the topic in a manner that was not part of the discussion, joint alliance losses to adversary losses.

This is a debate forum. If you tried that in debate, the debate judges would simply slap you down. You either show up prepared to debate or not. If you want to show up and obfuscate (popular around here lately) go find DebateObfuscation and post there.
Prove there was an equal exposure to combat, for your 11K:4 ratio to be valid.

Also, you still havent identified why America should be involved in the ME, what tool we allegedly gave up, why the Kurds don't just take citizenship with Turkey instead of fighting over the land they aren't going to develop any better, and how Trump is getting a second term regardless of any of this.
 
If we don't honor our commitment to our real Ally of 60 years--Turkey--then we are the ones who are not trustworthy, particularly when they are battling terrorists like the PKK that abducts children and presses them into becoming soldiers while also carrying out suicide bombings on civilian populations inside of Turkey.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Do you know what the YPG is? Here, allow me to educate you:

Learn About YPG: People's Protection Units | The Kurdish Project

Turkey is no friend, and there are good reasons why the Turks were refused admission to the EEC and EU. The Armenian genocide being one, and Turkey's appalling human rights record is another.

Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia

World Report 2019: Turkey | Human Rights Watch
 
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I despise what the Trump administration has done to the Kurds in America's name. Trump has given Ergodan everything he wants. He has decimated our ability to gain trustworthy allies.

If Americans feel this way about what Trump has turned our country into, how will people in the Middle East feel? People who have better weapons and less reason for restraint than pissed off Americans sitting in our comfortable homes feel.

Trump has done so much damage to our national security. He has fortified the recruitment of the next generation of jihadists and criminal gangs on multiple continents with nothing to lose and every reason to hate us.

Which is why Trump must be removed ASAP..... hopefully today.
 
Prove there was an equal exposure to combat, for your 11K:4 ratio to be valid.

Also, you still havent identified why America should be involved in the ME, what tool we allegedly gave up, why the Kurds don't just take citizenship with Turkey instead of fighting over the land they aren't going to develop any better, and how Trump is getting a second term regardless of any of this.

There wasn't an equal exposure to combat. That is the point. Are you a fool as well as being reading deficient.

Now you want me to explain US strategic National Security interests of the United States in the ME? I have a better idea. You explain why the United States does not have strategic National Security Interests in the ME.

It should be easy for you. You should have a list about ZERO actual arguments long.
 
I despise what the Trump administration has done to the Kurds in America's name. Trump has given Ergodan everything he wants. He has decimated our ability to gain trustworthy allies.

If Americans feel this way about what Trump has turned our country into, how will people in the Middle East feel? People who have better weapons and less reason for restraint than pissed off Americans sitting in our comfortable homes feel.

Trump has done so much damage to our national security. He has fortified the recruitment of the next generation of jihadists and criminal gangs on multiple continents with nothing to lose and every reason to hate us.

Trump removed all of 28 soldiers. Soldiers that were promised by 0bummer to be there one month. Now it's been ten years.
 
Turkey is our ally

Nope, on paper only. Why do you think Turkey was refused admission to the EU. Google 'Armenian genocide' and 'Turkish human rights record' for a clue. And now Turkey has a de facto dictator in power, stifling freedom of expression, jailing journalists, parliamentarians and even the election opposition candidate and anyone else threatening Erdogan's authority.
Turkey is as much an 'ally' as North Korea.

Turkey | World | Europe/Central Asia | Human Rights Watch

Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia
 
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Then your ratio is not valid and you were wrong for citing it.

It most certainly is valid. The unequal exposure to combat directly leads to the ratio of 11,000/4. Try more obfuscation. You seem to be stuck on that page of the Trumpette playbook.
 
Nope, on paper only. Why do you think Turkey was refused admission to the EU. Google 'Armenian genocide' and 'Turkish human rights record' for a clue. And now Turkey has a de facto dictator in power, stifling freedom of expression, jailing journalists, parliamentarians and even the election opposition candidate and anyone else threatening Erdogan's authority.
Turkey is as much an 'ally' as North Korea.

Turkey | World | Europe/Central Asia | Human Rights Watch

Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia

No, by law.
 
The NATO treaty isn't 'law'. It is a non-binding 'agreement'. Each member state may decide what military contribution it wants to make.

In The United States it's law.
 
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