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I cannot believe Rumsfeld/Meyers/Bush want to see any soldier

WKL815 said:
Slavery, Segregation and Infanticide remain relics of the Democratic Party Platform. Well, except for that last one...that one's still existing. Liberals and Democrats consistently choose to make laws and interpret the constitution in ways that serve the purpose of subjugating their constituency so they can retain power. This is inherent to their platform and it is bad for freedom.

Please point me to the sections of the Democratic Party Platform you're referring to.

And right after you do that, please look up the stupid "flag burning" amendment and the "Pandering to Christian Bigotry Because It's the Only Way We Can Win an Election" amendment that's in there. :hm
 
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It just seems to me that it's being sold as some end all cure all for our oil shortage problem. I just don't see it that way. I have seen the extented numbers you've provided before. But even if they are correct, and be honest, a lot of studies rebuke them. The USGS study shows a total recoverable amount at between 5.7 and 16 BB total. http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm. So if you got all 16 billion barrels total and you use 19 million barrels a day. By my math, and I could be off not use to working with this many zeros, that would last about 843 days. Or 2.3 years. But let's say those number are way low. Even if we were able to produce the oil in a shorter amount of time in larger quanities for a longer period of time-are we really doing anything to address the real problem? The oil that is there will last a mere 14 years by the numbers provided by Veterans of Foreign Wars. What then? I'm simply saying I think it would make more sense to work toward long term solutions. Solutions that remove our dependence on oil. At some point were going to have to do that anyway. In reality we've only been using oil enmass for the past 100 years. Most studies show we're going to run out in somewhere around 27-40 years from now. I think it's foolish not to be working towards greater independence now.


As for my concern for antelope. I'm not sure they would notice much. I firmly believe the oil could be removed with less impact then previous drilling operations. My understanding is the methods for removing the oil have improved. I've been to see the current Alaska Pipeline and the caribou and moose I saw didn't seem to be effected much. Course I'm no biologist, maybe the wildlife are being driven crazy? Didn't seem that way to me.
 
Fiscal Relief in an economic downturn. When states are the thrust into a fiscal crisis due to a national economic downturn, we should support Federal fiscal relief to states as an effective tool to jumpstart growth and job creation, and to prevent harmful tuition and tax increases, as well as painful cuts to vital education, health, homeland security, and other critical services; and to prevent underfunded mandates.

It was hidden, but there it is...

"If things go wrong...fear not my citizens...your government will give you handouts until times get better." "What's that you say? You say you can't find a job with benefits still? And you don't have the cash outlay for your kid to go to college? And all the poor lifestyle Americans and trial attorneys are increasing your healthcare premiums? And it's an election year again? Oh dear, well let me just take care of that for you. You just vote for me again, and all will be well. I'll just be over here taxing the people who have the money because obviously they aren't doing their share to make your life easy. But I will. That's okay...you don't need to do anything. Just Vote."
 
Though it may be true that it is possible to extract oil without causing major environmental damage anyone who has driven next to the pipline and inhaled the reek that it expels will be able to tell you that it is hardly a beutiful piece of astheticaly apealing architecture. Also one must wonder if the gigantic oil corporations that are closing in on the regon will spend the amount of money neccasary to protect the large piece of native american heritage. And one must also wonder if our esteamed president will enforce restrictions on the said corporations.
 
"If things go wrong...fear not my citizens...your government will give you handouts until times get better." "What's that you say? You say you can't find a job with benefits still? And you don't have the cash outlay for your kid to go to college? And all the poor lifestyle Americans and trial attorneys are increasing your healthcare premiums? And it's an election year again? Oh dear, well let me just take care of that for you. You just vote for me again, and all will be well. I'll just be over here taxing the people who have the money because obviously they aren't doing their share to make your life easy. But I will. That's okay...you don't need to do anything. Just Vote."[/QUOTE]

You may turn your nose up at the govornment that supports this action but in doing so you grant pardon on the national party the outsorces jobs, leaving entire cities in economic crisis. The party that has lead our country into a defisit and the party that is leaning heavily opon china to solve out economic problems. Is i better to grant lift taxes from the back of the entire american populace, still at levels that rob income from the mouths of working class families, to insure that the tiny percentage of poeple who hold the huge percentage of this countries wealth do not have to fear that some of it will go to help support the stability and growth of our nation? It is not an option to pay taxes, it is a duty. And every person who supports tax cuts for the rich has the decline of this country on their sholders.
 
Rhadamanthus said:
Though it may be true that it is possible to extract oil without causing major environmental damage anyone who has driven next to the pipline and inhaled the reek that it expels will be able to tell you that it is hardly a beutiful piece of astheticaly apealing architecture. Also one must wonder if the gigantic oil corporations that are closing in on the regon will spend the amount of money neccasary to protect the large piece of native american heritage. And one must also wonder if our esteamed president will enforce restrictions on the said corporations.
I think there's several things to consider here. I think you hit the nail on the head. As you mentioned will the oil companies do their part in protecting the environment? Given the current administrations policies regarding the environment my guess would be no. From what I can tell the main theme seems to be "who knows polluters better then themself? So let's have the polluters police and audit themselves." To me that's like saying who knows child molesters better than child molesters. This type of policy agenda leads me to believe the only thing the clear sky's act clears the sky of is birds. Plus once we clear the way to explore and extract the oil from ANWR where will we look next? The Grand Canyon? Yellowstone? The Florida Keys? And I still contend none of this is anything more then short term solutions to a long term problem.

There are however plus sides to allowing the drilling. The economic impact on Alaska would be huge. The scale of the workforce needed to for such an operation would be astronomical and well paid. I'm too young to have worked on the current pipeline but I know people who did and many claim they made 10 years worth of wages in 2 or 3. Plus there's the income to the state and federal goverments. And we would reduce our amount of dependence on foreign oil, though the amount of that reduction is highly debated.

For me it comes down to the simply fact that it's not a real solution and I just don't trust this administration. Am I the only one to notice that as this administration has increased it's push to drill in ANWR the projected amounts of the reserves have increased? I remember watching senate debates on this issue back in 2000 and no ones was claiming at that time there was any more then a total of 16BB. And the main arguement was that in all probablity it was somewhere between 6-9BB and not all of that could be recovered. Now it's a "Slam Dunk" that there's at least 14-20BB. Huh? "Slam Dunk?" Now where have I heard that before?

As for the odor of the current pipeline. I've been there and granted I didn't do any work on the line but I don't recall any odors. Was I just not close enough?
 
The people of Alaska would all reep the enhanced economic benifits if drilling in ANWR were to proceed. But I agree with you when you say that drilling would not solve either the longterm economic or energy problems. If a child cries would you give them whatever they want? Should we drill just to supply the American people with oil to alow them to continue driving large cars which consume unneccasary amounts of fossile fuels? America must step forward and find a new source of energy that can last with out damaging the environment in the way that fossil fuels do.

As for the reek of the pipeline I too have seen it, for quite long periods of time, though I also never noticed much of a smell. However i have spoken to people who have hiked in close procsimity to the line and who say that the smell is revolting. Though I would like to be able to say that without a doubt the pipeline is a long stinky piece of metel tubing the stinkyness of the issue is only hearsay.

To me though there is a strong moral odor that emits from the entire oil industry and I feel that as long as we are dependent on oil we can never really take the next step as a counry. I hate to say though that I am not imune to the promise of a larger permanent fund dividend with the beginning of drilling and I have had many internal battles on the subject. Battles which I think are being faught by many people. And a good many of them are most likely lost to the promise of wealth. I can only hope that sometime in the not so distant future poeple will realise what a mistake it is to increase dependensy on oil. Any oil, foreign or otherwise.
 
Decreasing dependancy on oil makes economic and strategic sense.

I'm not advocating nuclear power as the solution, but look nuclear warships as an example. It takes years before a nuclear carrier needs to refuel. This tells me that there are other options out there if we would just look into them.

But it would seem that our alaskan friend has raised an important point. . .

I hate to say though that I am not imune to the promise of a larger permanent fund dividend with the beginning of drilling and I have had many internal battles on the subject.
You're not the only one.
 
If we could decrease dependency on oil and simultaniously develope an alternative energy source (i have no idea what, that you will have to take up with a scientist) and maybe even monopolise that energy source early on that could make huge advancments for our economy, maybe even economical advancements that would not dry up as swiftly as oil has.

I am an Alaskan and I have not missed the fact that year after year my state is conveniently placed in the back pockets of every republican administration that supports oil development. I would miss my dear PFD but still I think it a sacrifice I am willing to make. Sadly though I don't think other Alaskans would be as happy as i am to give up there anual cash flow.
 
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Rhadamanthus said:
If we could decrease dependency on oil and simultaniously develope an alternative energy source (i have no idea what, that you will have to take up with a scientist) and maybe even monopolise that energy source early on that could make huge advancments for our economy, maybe even economical advancements that would not dry up as swiftly as oil has.

I am an Alaskan and I have not missed the fact that year after year my state is conveniently placed in the back pockets of every republican administration that supports oil development. I would miss my dear PFD but still I think it a sacrifice I am willing to make. Sadly though I don't think other Alaskans would be as happy as i am to give up there anual cash flow.
How much is the PFD now?

And yes, I think we need to get in front of this oil shortage situation and soon. To me there are too many unknowns with the ANWR proposal. How much is really there? No one knows but the est. keeps going up. How long is it going to take to get it out? Again, no certainties. But that number keeps going down. It was going to take 10 years. Now I think it's down to two or three. What is the cost going to be? This number too is going down and fast. It's going to be so inexpensive now that fuel costs are going to go down dramatically once we get the oil pumping. When was the last time you heard about any large construction project that came in under budget? Or even at budget?

Hum, seems like I heard something else was going to make oil prices go down. What was it? Oh yeah, now I remember the Iraq war. We we're going to go in free an entire civilization and they were going to welcome us like the troops that liberated Paris. This would stabilize the region and oil prices would drop. How's that working out? "Mission Accomplished?"
 
This years PFD was 980 dollars aprox.

It seems to me that someone at some level of govornment must have a fairly acurate idea of how much oil will come out of ANWR. Still I find it hard to believe all of the numbers that come out of the govornment. Is someone hiding something? I may just be an untrusting individual but I don't think that we are hearing everything there is to be told.

Once we're done with Iraq then where to next? Iran? Saudi Arabia? We know that Iran poses such a huge nuclear threat isn't it our duty as one of the greatest nations on the planet to take them out? How far is all of this going to go?
 
Rhadamanthus said:
This years PFD was 980 dollars aprox.

It seems to me that someone at some level of govornment must have a fairly acurate idea of how much oil will come out of ANWR. Still I find it hard to believe all of the numbers that come out of the govornment. Is someone hiding something? I may just be an untrusting individual but I don't think that we are hearing everything there is to be told.

Once we're done with Iraq then where to next? Iran? Saudi Arabia? We know that Iran poses such a huge nuclear threat isn't it our duty as one of the greatest nations on the planet to take them out? How far is all of this going to go?
980? That's it? Did it go down I thought it used to be something like 1200.

I too don't trust the numbers. I find it hard to buy into anything that changes based on what they want to do. It's not a GOP thing either. Clinton did the same as have every administration in my lifetime.

What about Korea? They already have nukes. Oh, wait W's plan is to remove troops from there. So they must be being good now. Right?
 
The PFD changes from year to year.

I have been unaware that Korea posses oil (if it does please correct me) and as long as it does not I think it shall be moved to a lower level on the Bushes priority list. After all countries don't actualy have to posses nuclear weapons for us to atack them. Look at Iraq.
 
Rhadamanthus said:
The PFD changes from year to year.

I have been unaware that Korea posses oil (if it does please correct me) and as long as it does not I think it shall be moved to a lower level on the Bushes priority list. After all countries don't actualy have to posses nuclear weapons for us to atack them. Look at Iraq.
Perhaps you can enlighten me. When was the discovery made that Iraq had no WMD?
 
Was it not said that it was the location of the WMD's were obviouse? And yetn have we not occupied Iraq for a considerable time and still no weapons have been found. We can deduce that no weapons have been located by the fact that if they were it would have been trumpeted in the news as one of our presidents greatest achievments yet.
 
Rhadamanthus said:
Was it not said that it was the location of the WMD's were obviouse? And yetn have we not occupied Iraq for a considerable time and still no weapons have been found. We can deduce that no weapons have been located by the fact that if they were it would have been trumpeted in the news as one of our presidents greatest achievments yet.
Perhaps my question was not sufficiently clear. At some point, it was determined that Iran didn't have any WMD? When was this? When was it decided that there was nothing there?
 
I believe that Iraq was the country in question. I never said that Iran had no WMD.
 
Rhadamanthus said:
I believe that Iraq was the country in question. I never said that Iran had no WMD.
Your are correct. I apologize for my typographical error. I had intended to use the word Iraq.

Let me repeat the question which I believe was along the lines of, when was it discovered that Iraq had no WMD?

Can you tell me?
 
Do you think we would not have heard if Iraq had WMD? That would be one of Bushes greatest triumphs yet.
 
Rhadamanthus said:
Do you think we would not have heard if Iraq had WMD? That would be one of Bushes greatest triumphs yet.
I have given you two opportunities to answer the question but you have not done so. I'll try once more. Here is the question.

When was it determined that Iraq did not possess WMD?
 
It was determind when we occupied Iraq and there WHERE NO WEAPONS FOUND! we have the some of the greatest spy technology on the planet. Face it. There are no nuclear war heads burried in the sand.

Is this unsatisfactory to you? should i refrase is?
 
Rhadamanthus said:
It was determind when we occupied Iraq and there WHERE NO WEAPONS FOUND! we have the some of the greatest spy technology on the planet. Face it. There are no nuclear war heads burried in the sand.

Is this unsatisfactory to you? should i refrase is?
Your response is perfectly satisfactory. Don't change a single letter.

Now, think for a moment what this means. In terms that an attorney might use, it is 'ex post facto'. How so? Read on to find out.

On January 27, 2003, 'Shock & Awe' was triggered and the race to Baghdad began. In early April, Baghdad fell. Murmurs began to be heard; where are the WMD? Days passed. Still no WMDs. Murmurs grew progressively louder, rising, as more days passed, to the level of shouts. Still no WMDs.

Sometime in May, perhaps early June, prominent persons inside and outside the US were beginning to say; There are no WMDs.

Now rewind about a year. Prior to the commencement of hostilities, is there a single person of prominence who publicly said that Iraq had no WMDs? The intelligence services of France, Germany, Great Britain, Israel, and other countries all advised their heads of state that their investigation, information, and sources convinced them that Iraq did possess WMDs and would not hesitate to use them. When this information was passed to the administration, it was found to confirm what US intelligence services believed.

During the extended Congressional debate on the subject, members from both parties spoke on the dangers posed by Iraq by virtue of the WMDs it possessed. Members of the previous administration, right up to and including its President had spoken publicly about Iraq's possessing WMDs. The UN inspection team wanted to continue it's search. Why was that?

In the end, Congress voted to invade Iraq and bring about a regime change. The only decision left to President Bush was to determine the precise plan of attack, which, of course, he was bound to delegate to military planners, and the date on which hostilities would commence.

You might find it interesting to read the language of the Iraq War Resolution, which, by the way had bi-partisan support, paying particular attention to the various and sundry dates contained therein and noting how they spanned several administration. You can find a copy at:

http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArticle.asp?article_id=2686

My point, which you have made for me, is that well intentioned persons, acting on information which was universally accepted as being valid and actionable, did what they considered best in the circumstances and had all of the support that could be required. Rather than being castigated, they should be commended.

Subsequently, when no WMDs were found, the opposition and its media supporters, siezed upon this as an opportunity to roll out the smear tactics. It was believed that this would provide the nails that could be used to seal the coffin of fate for the president's re-election bid.

However, reasonable persons, understanding the facts outlined above, ignored the 20/20 hindsight of the Monday morning quarterbacks and decided that irrespective of the question of WMDs, the president did the right thing.

They rewarded him with a second term. Considering the margin of victory, it is apparent that quite a few registered Democrats shared that view.

Did Iraq possess WMDs? I believe so. Where are they? Several possibilities exist. They were shipped to Syria, Iran, or some other sympathetic state. More plausible, however, is this. Considering that they could amount to a few truckloads of 55 gallon drums, and considering that US forces have uncovered operational jet fighters, wrapped, sealed, and buried under the desert sands in Iraq, they likewise buried the WMD.

Will we ever know? I believe so. Eventually, everything comes out. Perhaps, after the upcoming election, some knowledgable Iraqi, believing that it would then be safe to do so, will speak up. Will it make a difference then? Not at all.

If this explanation is not to your satisfaction, I trust you will let me know.
 
This person did not seem to think that the evidense for WMD was so great.

"nuclear chief Mohamed ElBaradei, told the council that inspectors found no evidence Iraq had resumed its nuclear weapons program"

There is at least one person.

I find that seeing as your internet source does not seem to be accurate with the affiliation betwean al Qaeda and Iraq that i have trouble believeing the rest of what it says.
 
Fantasea> Now rewind about a year. Prior to the commencement of hostilities, is there a single person of prominence who publicly said that Iraq had no WMDs? The intelligence services of France, Germany, Great Britain, Israel, and other countries all advised their heads of state that their investigation, information, and sources convinced them that Iraq did possess WMDs and would not hesitate to use them. When this information was passed to the administration, it was found to confirm what US intelligence services believed. <Fantasea

Poppycock.

The Bush administration picked and chose only the intelligence they wanted to use to justify war with Iraq.

Our very own NIE (National Intelligence Estimate) in October of 2002 , had such weak evidence against Iraq that the Select Intelligence Committee voted 5-4 against giving Bush authorization to use force.

(it's interesting to note that the Senate, who voted overwhelmingly to give Bush authorization to use force against Iraq, never got to see the classified version of the NIE's report.)

Bush lied when he said that Congress saw the same intelligence.
Bush lied when he said the intelligence supported the use of force against Iraq.
Bush lied when he said Iraq was an ally of AlQueda.
I could go on.....

>>The UN inspection team wanted to continue it's search. Why was that?<<

The UN inspection team stated...in so many words...."There's nothing here...we can't find anything."

The UN Inspectors, including the IAEA ( International Atomic Energy Agency) asked for 4 more measly months to finish their inspections...just to be sure there were no WMD, but Bush refused because he wanted to start bombing.

After aprx 12 years of inspections and sanctions against Iraq, Bush couldn't wait 4 more months to allow the inspectors to do their jobs?!

Bush couldn't wait 4 more months before taking our nation to war?

Bush couldn't wait 4 more months before the United States, for the first time in it's history, attacks and invades a nation that never attacked us?!

Inexcusable.

If you're President and you have even one bit of evidence that says Iraq has no WMD...this should give any sane man pause before taking our nation to war and risking the lives of our sons and daughters.

Iraq was no immediate threat, the sanctions were working... Iraq had no chem/bio or nuclear capacity. If truth be known, we probably controlled more of Iraq before the war, with the no-fly zones, then we do today.

>>Did Iraq possess WMDs? I believe so. Where are they?<<

Of course they did...they were all destroyed in the First Gulf War.

Chem and bio weapons only have a shelf life of a few years, and that's if the elements are kept separate. Once the two or more elements are mixed, thus creating the lethal dose, the shelf life can be measured in weeks before they rapidly lose potency.

It's never been proven that Saddam had any kind of nuclear capability, other then a few blueprints, which can be found by anyone over the internet.

>>Several possibilities exist. They were shipped to Syria, Iran, or some other sympathetic state.<<

Our satellite imagery and surveilance photos do not support this conclusion.

An interesting sidenote about Saddam....

He knew he would have a few people defect from his ranks...many of these he deliberately showed false weapons plans...plans showing his chem/bio and nuclear capacity.

Saddam knew if one defected, even under polygraph tests, it would prove to any foreign intelligence agency that the "defector" was telling the truth about Saddam's weapons.

Why would Saddam deliberately lie about having WMD?

Because he wanted his neighbors and his enemies to believe he was one bad dude, and not to be messed with...plus it gave him prestige in much of the Middle East as one who stood up to the West.

Saddam had dreams of becoming the Grand Caliph of a United Middle East.

>> Considering that they could amount to a few truckloads of 55 gallon drums, and considering that US forces have uncovered operational jet fighters, wrapped, sealed, and buried under the desert sands in Iraq, they likewise buried the WMD. <<Fantasea

The only thing buried in the sand are the minds of the people that voted for Bush and believed his lies.

Hoot
 
Rhadamanthus said:
This person did not seem to think that the evidense for WMD was so great.

"nuclear chief Mohamed ElBaradei, told the council that inspectors found no evidence Iraq had resumed its nuclear weapons program"

There is at least one person.

I find that seeing as your internet source does not seem to be accurate with the affiliation betwean al Qaeda and Iraq that i have trouble believeing the rest of what it says.
Are you able to provide evidence of this, and the date on which it occurred?
 
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