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I believe it is wrong to believe in Christianity.

Then your definition of altruism is very different than how most define it. Most see it as giving something for nothing, a concept that does not exist.

I disagree. First of all, I doubt that most people put that much thought into it. Besides that, I don't see how giving something at great material expense for the good feeling you get is significantly different from giving something for nothing. The idea that altruism must mean giving something for literally nothing absurd and tautological. It's hardly even worth arguing against.

Altruism exists because people give at great material expense to themselves for rewards that are not material. Altruism isn't giving something for nothing, it is giving something material for nothing material (and something spiritual).
 
Not to be a definition-troll, but I disagree.

The common definition is to do something for the "benefit of others." The end result of which is "something," rather than"nothing." And while it's true that doing charity helps those other than the person donating their time or money, there are indirect benefits to living in a society that promotes selfless charity.

I'm not an altruist, but it seems that the basic belief is that if you do something that benefits others, it makes the community a better place to live in, therefore the person donating the benefit gets to enjoy living in a slightly better world. You could use logic to argue anything... since I just used it to argue that nothing is purely "selfless" but I think the basic idea of altruism is more fruitful and indirectly beneficial than your argument makes it out to be. But maybe I'm simply twisting words to be combative?

Correct me if I misunderstood your view point. Thanks.

:peace

No, I don't think you misunderstood my viewpoint. It is a bit more dogmatic then you presented it. My position is that there is nothing that is truly selfless. I agree, though, that altruism is beneificial, though I would not term it true altruism.
 
I disagree. First of all, I doubt that most people put that much thought into it.

Whether they put thought into it or not is not relevant. The unconscious desire that we have to feel good is all that is needed.

Besides that, I don't see how giving something at great material expense for the good feeling you get is significantly different from giving something for nothing.

It's the difference between something and nothing. Two very different concepts.

The idea that altruism must mean giving something for literally nothing absurd and tautological. It's hardly even worth arguing against.

Good, then we agree.

Altruism exists because people give at great material expense to themselves for rewards that are not material. Altruism isn't giving something for nothing, it is giving something material for nothing material (and something spiritual).

Like I said, our definitions are different.
 
No. Try this. Philosophically, 1+1 may not equal 2 because both in the past and in the future, the definition of the word "ONE" is not absolute... unrestricted, complete, total, and unchangeable.
So, basically 1+1 still equals 2.
 
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Whether they put thought into it or not is not relevant. The unconscious desire that we have to feel good is all that is needed.

What I meant is that I doubt most people put that much thought into defining the word altruism.

It's the difference between something and nothing. Two very different concepts.

But the definition of altruism is not "something for nothing." It is more properly "something for nothing material." Giving something for spiritual satisfaction is categorically different from giving something for material reward.

Good, then we agree.



Like I said, our definitions are different.

Exactly.
 
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Too bad it's not the basement, given smartass answers like this deserve a specific response.

If we were down under, you can be sure that I'd treat your inhumane and horrifying beliefs with all the respect they deserve.
 
I wasn't when I did it. Prayers for wealth and fame do not get answered. Prayers for health and well-being do. Of course you have to BELIEVE for this to work.

Except for all those cancer patients, children, etc, who die everyday. They must not have been praying right.


If you can demonstrate prayer has any beneficial physical effect beyond the placebo effect and a positive outlook on life (which are achievable by other means such as meditation) then there is $1million waiting for you. I'm serious.

If you don't want they money for yourself then you could donate to any charity you'd like (or give it to me :)).
 
If we were down under, you can be sure that I'd treat your inhumane and horrifying beliefs with all the respect they deserve.

Very unbecoming. Atheists have their fair share of horrors. Other than a bad disposition.
 
Very unbecoming. Atheists have their fair share of horrors. Other than a bad disposition.

I know. It's terrible how atheists require you to be rational. You are truly persecuted.
 
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Except for all those cancer patients, children, etc, who die everyday. They must not have been praying right.

The reasons for this are as follows:

1) Their prayers weren't phrased properly. God is a stickler for proper grammar.

2) God was busy helping a suburban housewife get a better deal on new tires for her SUV.

3) Those people's deaths were necessary to increase the faith of other human beings.

4) Those people needed to die for their own wellbeing.

5) God delights in tragedy and mayhem. His middle name is Loki.

6) God likes some people better than other people.

7) The people who died had some hidden unrighteousness for which they were being punished. Mostly, being brown/black and poor.

8) God was busy catching up on Glee episodes and didn't notice that famine in Ethiopia.

9) God just likes Americans and Europeans the best.

10) God just didn't give a crap on that particular day.
 
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Why does God have to respond to every prayer? I wouldn't expect God to answer my prayer to lift the remote off of the floor and float it into my hand. It's not exactly deism, but rather that we can't expect a miracle all the time.
 
Very unbecoming. Atheists have their fair share of horrors. Other than a bad disposition.

And so do people who have mustaches, or blue eyes, or squinty eyes, or red hair, or enjoy ice cream! They all have their fair share of horrors!!!


Atheists are not a cohesive group anymore than THEISTS are. Atheists share NOTHING in common than a disbelief in god(s) just as THEISTS share nothing in common but a belief in god(s).

I know you've heard this many times and apparently you keep forgetting or have memory problems.
 
Why does God have to respond to every prayer? I wouldn't expect God to answer my prayer to lift the remote off of the floor and float it into my hand. It's not exactly deism, but rather that we can't expect a miracle all the time.

The issue isn't about what a god can or can't do. The issue is determining if your preferred god is responsible or whether some other cause is responsible for what your prayed for.

If I have a headache, pray to god that my headache goes away then take an aspirin, then if my headache goes away is it gods doing?

Now apply this to other circumstances. If I have cancer and I pray that it goes away and it does, is that gods doing? How do you know?

Many religious have setup unfalsifiable claims. If what they prayed for happens then its gods doing. If it doesn't then god didn't want it to happen or some other excuse.

"A truly strange world is one where no coincidences ever occur".
 
The issue isn't about what a god can or can't do. The issue is determining if your preferred god is responsible or whether some other cause is responsible for what your prayed for.

If I have a headache, pray to god that my headache goes away then take an aspirin, then if my headache goes away is it gods doing?

Now apply this to other circumstances. If I have cancer and I pray that it goes away and it does, is that gods doing? How do you know?

Many religious have setup unfalsifiable claims. If what they prayed for happens then its gods doing. If it doesn't then god didn't want it to happen or some other excuse.

"A truly strange world is one where no coincidences ever occur".

Most who claim that God is behind natural events have are pretty loony. I'm not saying that God can't possibly ever be behind it, but is he always behind what happens in the weather? Doubtful.
 
Most who claim that God is behind natural events have are pretty loony. I'm not saying that God can't possibly ever be behind it, but is he always behind what happens in the weather? Doubtful.
How exactly does one discern when your preferred God is the cause of some event as opposed to some other god(s), nature, or something else entirely?
 
In "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins summarizes the results of what he calls "[A] horrifying study by the Israeli psychologist George Tamarin":

Tamarin presented to more than a thousand Israeli school children, aged between eight and fourteen, the account of the battle of Jericho in the book of Joshua:

Joshua said to the people, 'Shout; for the LORD has given you the city. And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction. . . But all silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are sacred to the LORD; they shall go into the treasury of the LORD.'. . . Then they utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and asses, with the edge of the sword. . . And they burned the city with fire, and all within it; only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

Tamarin then asked the children a simple moral question: 'Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted rightly or not?' They had to choose between A (total approval), B (partial approval) and C (total disapproval). The results were polarized: 66 percent gave total approval and 26 percent total disapproval, with rather fewer (8 percent) in the middle with partial approval. Here are three typical answers from the total approval (A) group:

In my opinion Joshua and the Sons of Israel acted well, and here are the reasons: God promised them this land, and gave them permission to conquer. If they would not have acted in this manner or killed anyone, then there would be the danger that the Sons of Israel would have assimilated among the Goyim.

In my opinion Joshua was right when he did it, one reason being that God commanded him to exterminate the people so that the tribes of Israel will not be able to assimilate amongst them and learn their bad ways.

Joshua did good because the people who inhabited the land were of a different religion, and when Joshua killed them he wiped their religion from the earth.

The justification for the genocidal massacre by Joshua is religious in every case. Even those in category C, who gave total disapproval, did so, in some cases, for backhanded religious reasons. One girl, for example, disapproved of Joshua's conquering Jericho because, in order to do so, he had to enter it:

I think it is bad, since the Arabs are impure and if one enters an impure land one will also become impure and share their curse.

Two others who totally disapproved did so because Joshua destroyed everything, including animals and property, instead of keeping some as spoil for Israelites:

I think Joshua did not act well, as they could have spared the animals for themselves.

I think Joshua did not act well, as he could have left the property of Jericho; if he had not destroyed the property it would have belonged to the Israelites.

Once again the sage Maimonides, often cited for his scholarly wisdom, is in no doubt where he stands on this issue: 'It is a positive commandment to destroy the seven nations, as it is said: Thou shalt utterly destroy them. If one does not put to death any of them that falls into one's power, one transgresses a negative commandment, as it is said: Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth.'

Unlike Maimonides, the children in Tamarin's experiment were young enough to be innocent. Presumably the savage views they expressed were those of their parents or the cultural group in which they were brought up. It is, I suppose, not unlikely that Palestinian children, brought up in the same war-torn country, would offer equivalent opinions in the opposite direction. These considerations fill me with despair. They seem to show the immense power of religion, and especially the religious upbringing of children, to divide people and foster historic enmities and hereditary vendettas. I cannot help remarking that two out of Tamarin's three quotations from group A mentioned the evils of assimilation, while the third one stressed the importance of killing people in order to stamp out their religion.

Tamarin ran a fascinating control group in his experiment. A different group of 168 Israeli children were given the same text from the book of Joshua, but with Joshua's own name replaced by 'General Lin' and 'Israel' replaced by 'a Chinese kingdom 3,000 years ago'. Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7 per cent approved of General Lin's behavior, and 75 percent disapproved. In other words, when their loyalty to Judaism was removed from the calculation, the majority of the children agreed with the moral judgments that most modern humans would share. Joshua's action was a deed of barbaric genocide. But it all looks different from a religious point of view. And the difference starts early in life. It was religion that made the difference between children condemning genocide and condoning it.
 
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