I am going to keep a close eye on this.

[Gaugingcatenate]

I understand Zimmermans concerns and I do not seek to dismiss them. But there are inherent problems with assuming that because SOME of a certain ethnic or social group are guilty of a behavior that ALL are guilty. (You addressed this with me early in my old white guy rant.) There are legitimate reasons for concern but we must force ourselves to judge, when we must, based on the individual and not the group.

I can also understand your point of view. However, it is not just some, it, unfortunately, is a lot. Not all by any means, and I feel for those that have to bear the brunt for the others of their race that have brought this unfortunate cloud upon an entire community. But I think until the Black Community has rooted out this culture of glorifying gangsterism, where even the good kids dress like thugs, talk like thugs, give cover to those who are thugs, it is going to be tough.

I, as a survival mechanism, make assumptions about a group riding up on their noisy sputtering Harleys, brawny big white guys with shaved heads, spikes and all tattooed... I generally find a way out of that particular establishment pretty quick... should I make such assumptions? I am still alive and I still have all my front teeth [knock on wood]... and I, as do all others in a free society, have a right and, especially if you have children that could be harmed, an obligation to make some of those decisions myself, based on prior knowledge and experience. Some will disagree with me on that, some will be smiling, some may just be smiling with no front teeth... or replaced front teeth...

In any event, fear is a problem and it will not be overcome by government or certain groups influence telling us we should not fear what we might logically fear. The Black Community in this country gained, and is rightfully entitled, to a gigantic amount of respect for the way in which it conducted itself during the Civil Rights period. To take a non violent path when people were kicking, punching, some even calling the dogs on them, spitting on them, cursing them... that took a courage I cannot even imagine or fully understand... except in times of war, perhaps. The failure of the community to take that, subtly subverted by Johnson and the Great Society's good intentions as well as the race hustlers that have become the defacto spokespeople for the Black Community, and build upon it, upwards....well, its just sad and very disappointing.

We have put up with that turn of events for an awful long time now... and its time to quit accepting the unacceptable. Too many of the good people in that and other communities getting hurt by the bad ones.

I don't deny the reality of those stats. But I think I reach a different conclusion when I ask why. To me, this reality has evolved for a variety of reasons. Some have to do with poverty, some have to do with poor environment, some have to do with inherently destructive people making bad choices. All of these need to be addressed and all need to be addressed differently. The problem is when you treat every black man as a potential criminal instead of anything...literally anything else. If we, as white americans are going to effectively contribute towards a solution we have to stop doing this. We have to acknowledge that crime and self destructive choices are, for most, a product of environment not a product of our nature. If we want different results we must contribute towards creating a different environment. If we don't we lose the exceptional within those communities.

We have tried the enabling part of the solution, we have walked around this like we are walking on eggshells for long enough. Political correctness needs extinction and while we need to make sure of what we say, not try to be hurtful, we need to look at the facts, those in wrong need to be told and those doing wrong need to be punished. So the enabling door has to slam shut. Adults, no matter your upbringing no matter your race no matter your gender, must abide by the rules that we, the majority, set in an ordered society. Its time, no more PC, no more double standards, no more standing in solidarity just because of color or race... that is silly, we are all Americans [ obviously not talking to posters from other countries that may be here ] and we good folk need to stand up together against those who would do us harm.

I have made this point all along. We will never know if Zimmerman was racially motivated that night. We will never ever know. To state he was racially motivated as fact is unjust but to deny the possibility is also unjust. So instead of fighting over a detail we will never know, why don't we make an effort to understand all that stands behind the positions opposing sides take on this.

From what I can tell, especially when GZ was a minority himself, partnered in a business with an African American friend... I think to put this down as racially motivated is ignoring the facts, creating something bad when that something, besides all the experiences this neighborhood was going through, was not there for any reason besides the reality of the situation. If you disagree with that, well, we will just have to agree to disagree... unless you can provide any logical or factual information to the contrary.

 

[Caine]

If we want different results we must contribute towards creating a different environment. If we don't we lose the exceptional within those communities.

One cannot contribute towards creating a different environment when they are not welcome there. Police officers have been working to create a different environment for decades, instead they are turned into the bad guys, when in the end their goal is to get the "bad influences" off of the streets so the younger generations can grow up without that influence. Instead the fine officers working hard to do this just get called racists.

I have made this point all along. We will never know if Zimmerman was racially motivated that night. We will never ever know. To state he was racially motivated as fact is unjust but to deny the possibility is also unjust. So instead of fighting over a detail we will never know, why don't we make an effort to understand all that stands behind the positions opposing sides take on this.

Your statement that "to deny the possibility is also unjust" we could label ANYONE with that statement then, based upon your way of viewing it. Even though there is evidence that he was generally not a racist person, that is not enough for you to remove the consideration. Then I can say that to deny the possibility that Obama is a racist is also unjust. Or to deny the possibility that Ben Affleck is a racist is also unjust, etc, etc.

Your statement pretty much says, "If a person doesn't outright say they ARE a racist..... then there is a possibility they still are"

 

[opendebate]

I can also understand your point of view. However, it is not just some, it, unfortunately, is a lot. Not all by any means, and I feel for those that have to bear the brunt for the others of their race that have brought this unfortunate cloud upon an entire community. But I think until the Black Community has rooted out this culture of glorifying gangsterism, where even the good kids dress like thugs, talk like thugs, give cover to those who are thugs, it is going to be tough.

This seems a little like situational ethics to me. You feel for those ... but still expect them to why would that same rule not apply to old white guys. Seems like you expect to be judge based on who you actually are and what you actually do but somehow that courtesy is not passed on to others.

As for more of them being criminals, I assume you based this on prison populations. If so, you might want to look at what the majority of black americans have been incarcerated for; not just that they are incarcerated. You might also want to look at injustices in the system that make it much more likely for a young black man to be stopped more often received a harsher sentence than a white man that commits the same offense. This is not meant to imply that there is not a problem of violence criminality in these populations because clearly there is.

I, as a survival mechanism, make assumptions about a group riding up on their noisy sputtering Harleys, brawny big white guys with shaved heads, spikes and all tattooed... I generally find a way out of that particular establishment pretty quick... should I make such assumptions? I am still alive and I still have all my front teeth [knock on wood]... and I, as do all others in a free society, have a right and, especially if you have children that could be harmed, an obligation to make some of those decisions myself, based on prior knowledge and experience. Some will disagree with me on that, some will be smiling, some may just be smiling with no front teeth... or replaced front teeth...

Believe it or not I do understand. As a little white girl who had to go to Port Authority at 2am I understand the realities of making quick judgments when necessary. I am not referring to those moments. I am suggesting that outside of that moment, reserve judgment. If you can afford someone the opportunity to show who THEY are, do so.

The failure of the community to take that, subtly subverted by Johnson and the Great Society's good intentions as well as the race hustlers that have become the defacto spokespeople for the Black Community, and build upon it, upwards....well, its just sad and very disappointing. We have put up with that turn of events for an awful long time now... and its time to quit accepting the unacceptable. Too many of the good people in that and other communities getting hurt by the bad ones

Let's say you are right. Let's say a lot of well intentioned white guys went a mission to square things up and it backfired and has hurt the very community of people it was meant to help. Do we just walk away from the mess we had a hand in creating? Do just do what we do so well, go in **** everything up then walk away..? Good luck wiht that...we're outta here. ?? Why would we not just take what we have learned about the flaws in those well intended programs and fix them?

Adults, no matter your upbringing no matter your race no matter your gender, must abide by the rules that we, the majority, set in an ordered society.

I agree

and we good folk need to stand up together against those who would do us harm.

If the objective is to solve the problem then just pushing back will not work. A solution will take a partnership. We as white Americans must learn to recognize our racist behaviors, it is not easy to do because it is not always overt. We should acknowledge, and this is very difficult, the privileges we have had handed to us simply by virtue of our skin color and the inequities this has created. Just the acknowledgement, even without action, is a nod of respect to those who have had to go without it. We must reach into these communities in a truly constructive way. I always refer to the proverb "teach a man to fish..." This should serve as the foundation of any social program. Public schools should be equal in the quality of education they provide, the judicial system should treat everyone who passes through it the same etc. Then there needs to be leadership within the black community that redirects that community. What this boils down to is everyone taking responsibility for what they contribute to the problem and supporting one another in our efforts.

From what I can tell, especially when GZ was a minority himself, partnered in a business with an African American friend... I think to put this down as racially motivated is ignoring the facts, creating something bad when that something, besides all the experiences this neighborhood was going through, was not there for any reason besides the reality of the situation. If you disagree with that, well, we will just have to agree to disagree... unless you can provide any logical or factual information to the contrary.

I cant recall what I have said to you about this already so excuse me if I am repeating myself. I do believe that there is a possibility that GZ had some level of prejudice that influenced his behavior that night. Racism does not have to be as extreme as sporting a KKK hoodie and burning crosses to be destructive and dangerous, it can also be subtle and difficult to recognize. I believe that racially bias thinking is so deeply embedded in our thinking that we rarely recognize it even in ourselves. I am more inclined to see GZ as having acted on this level of racism. I would guess that he lost a little of his objectivity when it came to assessing TM as a threat.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

This seems a little like situational ethics to me. You feel for those ... but still expect them to why would that same rule not apply to old white guys. Seems like you expect to be judge based on who you actually are and what you actually do but somehow that courtesy is not passed on to others.

As I am off to the movies in a few, I have only the time to respond to this before I go.

I think if the numbers were anything similar, I could see you using that against the old white guys... but when half the murders in the US annually are committed a population group which represents only about 13% of the total...well, you have to start doing and not just wondering any more. 94% of those murdered are black people...when are we going to take control of the situation so as to help those may be innocent, being victimized by their own race? That is, to me, far more the tradgedy, but this point is stated but almost immediately forgotten, as tho, oh well, they are only killing each other...its just not right and something should be done to those creating an environment of fear and violence for so many others. We need fathers in the homes of American families, mothers as well... being productive and adding value to society... or else they feel worthless, kids grow up feeling worthless...if we really wanted to get rid of poverty we would work on getting rid of incentives, slim as they are, for mothers not to have fathers in the home and to make better choices about who they have children with. That would be a nice first step....

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Believe it or not I do understand. As a little white girl who had to go to Port Authority at 2am I understand the realities of making quick judgments when necessary. I am not referring to those moments. I am suggesting that outside of that moment, reserve judgment. If you can afford someone the opportunity to show who THEY are, do so.

I think a lot of people do allow for that opportunity. Already. In safe circumstances anyhow. When you are isolated one on one or two or three on one, you have to do the smart thing, the survival thing. Not just with young black males, but especially with young black males…something, as I said, young black males have brought upon themselves. I didn’t create this perception, you didn’t either, and I also cannot solve it for them, they will have themselves to take the steps to prove to the rest of us, or keep carrying the burden.

Let's say you are right. Let's say a lot of well intentioned white guys went a mission to square things up and it backfired and has hurt the very community of people it was meant to help. Do we just walk away from the mess we had a hand in creating? Do just do what we do so well, go in **** everything up then walk away..? Good luck wiht that...we're outta here. ?? Why would we not just take what we have learned about the flaws in those well intended programs and fix them?

Maybe we do, much better than continuing these programs that mess with families, destroy lives. I would say liberals caused it, you folks have the obligation to clean it up, but I know that would just lead to more messes. I say we cut back all the corporate welfare and the social welfare. Make people, all people, earn what they want… only support the kids somehow.

The programs cannot be fixed, they are the problem.

If the objective is to solve the problem then just pushing back will not work. A solution will take a partnership. We as white Americans must learn to recognize our racist behaviors, it is not easy to do because it is not always overt. We should acknowledge, and this is very difficult, the privileges we have had handed to us simply by virtue of our skin color and the inequities this has created. Just the acknowledgement, even without action, is a nod of respect to those who have had to go without it. We must reach into these communities in a truly constructive way. I always refer to the proverb "teach a man to fish..." This should serve as the foundation of any social program. Public schools should be equal in the quality of education they provide, the judicial system should treat everyone who passes through it the same etc. Then there needs to be leadership within the black community that redirects that community. What this boils down to is everyone taking responsibility for what they contribute to the problem and supporting one another in our efforts.

I will not particularly disagree with you except in your pushing of racist behaviors… I have asked several times for you to produce facts, or some semblance of a framework where you identify this overt/covert behavior and where/how it manifests itself. I would suggest that the American community as a whole has been too lenient on the Black Community, not expecting it to rise as have other immigrant and disregarded communities in the past. When you have low expectations and add give aways and incentives towards bad behavior, your low expectations will nearly always be met.

I cant recall what I have said to you about this already so excuse me if I am repeating myself. I do believe that there is a possibility that GZ had some level of prejudice that influenced his behavior that night. Racism does not have to be as extreme as sporting a KKK hoodie and burning crosses to be destructive and dangerous, it can also be subtle and difficult to recognize. I believe that racially bias thinking is so deeply embedded in our thinking that we rarely recognize it even in ourselves. I am more inclined to see GZ as having acted on this level of racism. I would guess that he lost a little of his objectivity when it came to assessing TM as a threat.

Truthfully, that just sounds like, while it might to some degree be true with all that was going on in his neighborhood at the hands of young black males, that you are trying to find racism where there is little or no evidence. One could assume the same things about these two young punks that killed the 88 year old white guy, you think they may have had a little bit of hatred way down deep… we know the guys who, out of boredom, shot the poor young Aussie baseball player in the back held this deep seated hatred…far more than ever expressed by GZ. Why must this angle be pushed? Especially if you do not want it pushed back from the other side? We need no excuses from anybody about what we know, in fact happened… Martin punched and broke Zimmerman’s nose, then jumped on him and started smashing his head against a side walk…you cannot think that Zimmerman was thinking, well, if this is a white guy, I will just let him spill my brains out here and now…no, that is when the gun came out and he acted as almost any sensible person would to save his life… the cops were not going to make it in time, that’s for sure.

 

[opendebate]

As I am off to the movies in a few, I have only the time to respond to this before I go.

I think if the numbers were anything similar, I could see you using that against the old white guys... .

Numbers have nothing to do with being consistent with your ethics. When you begin to draw the line somewhere else for yourself than you do for others you have a problem. Because if you can do that why can't someone else. Then who gets to decide where that line is drawn. Who will practice the best judgement and who decides what good judgment is. You? The white guys...the black guys....the green guys...the rich guys...the educated guys....? This seems to imply that one group may be inherently more trustworthy.

f we really wanted to get rid of poverty we would work on getting rid of incentives, slim as they are, for mothers not to have fathers in the home and to make better choices about who they have children with

I agree with much of what you say here except for this part. People are incentivised when the reward is something they WANT. Do you think people WANT to accomplish living at the poverty level?? I doubt that you understand what it means to live in poverty. It is a surrender of your dignity and surrender into hopelessness. No one aspires to it.

 

[opendebate]

I think a lot of people do allow for that opportunity. Already. In safe circumstances anyhow. When you are isolated one on one or two or three on one, you have to do the smart thing, the survival thing. Not just with young black males, but especially with young black males…something, as I said, young black males have brought upon themselves. I didn’t create this perception, you didn’t either, and I also cannot solve it for them, they will have themselves to take the steps to prove to the rest of us, or keep carrying the burden.

Maybe we do, much better than continuing these programs that mess with families, destroy lives. I would say liberals caused it, you folks have the obligation to clean it up, but I know that would just lead to more messes. I say we cut back all the corporate welfare and the social welfare. Make people, all people, earn what they want… only support the kids somehow.

The programs cannot be fixed, they are the problem.

I will not particularly disagree with you except in your pushing of racist behaviors… I have asked several times for you to produce facts, or some semblance of a framework where you identify this overt/covert behavior and where/how it manifests itself. I would suggest that the American community as a whole has been too lenient on the Black Community, not expecting it to rise as have other immigrant and disregarded communities in the past. When you have low expectations and add give aways and incentives towards bad behavior, your low expectations will nearly always be met.
.

You so oversimplify. Why do you think the thug culture evolved in the first place? Either it is innate to black men to be violent or the behavior is a product of the environment. What do you think would create an environment where young men believe that being a ruthless hard ass is what it means to be a man? If it is not innate how else could this understanding have evolved in this culture? Understanding does not lead to excuse mind you, understanding leads to making a distinction between blame and responsibility and assembling solutions that address the root of the problem instead of letting white establishment off the hook and placing the mess we helped to create squarely in the laps of the people we minimized. The responsibility for the damage done in these communities is shared.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Numbers have nothing to do with being consistent with your ethics. When you begin to draw the line somewhere else for yourself than you do for others you have a problem. Because if you can do that why can't someone else. Then who gets to decide where that line is drawn. Who will practice the best judgement and who decides what good judgment is. You? The white guys...the black guys....the green guys...the rich guys...the educated guys....? This seems to imply that one group may be inherently more trustworthy.

You are wrong here, if the overwhelming majority of people do not act in racist ways....not talking about the guy who only overtly acts out 50 percent of the time, talking about the overwhelming majority do not... and they do not. And if the numbers were anything similar to the murder percentage rate by African Americans compared to their race, you might have a convincing argument. We all tend to, as they say, flock together like birds of a feather... that is just natural even though even that is breaking down over time...as well it should as we are Americans, in this together. But we have a problem if the majority are doing something wrong... or in the case of the murder rate, a small minority are doing the majority of the wrong.

You still have not come through with any evidence of this white domination of African Americans thing...

I agree with much of what you say here except for this part. People are incentivised when the reward is something they WANT. Do you think people WANT to accomplish living at the poverty level?? I doubt that you understand what it means to live in poverty. It is a surrender of your dignity and surrender into hopelessness. No one aspires to it.

I talk with young folks almost everyday, and when we discuss this, they tell me the stories... so you are wrong here as well, I believe. A teenage girl wanting to get out from under her parents offered something that looks, to them at that age, a very good deal... and some do, indeed, add kids [ I have talked to some, and of course this is anecdotal, but nonetheless cannot be discounted as never happening ] to supplement their money situation. It is sad as they begin to realize they are stuck. Plenty of folks, too many, if offered a minimal amount to stay home and do nothing rather than working up from where they are, seem willing to take this pittance, unfortunately.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Democrat sociologist and well respected senator, did a study way back in the 60s, a paper titled The Negro Family: The Case For National Action, indicating that welfare, like the Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program, included rules for payments only if the man was out of the house. If he were in the house, he should take responsibility. Back at that point it seemed to be at a critical juncture as I believe the out of wedlock birth rate was around 25% ...now it is like triple that....Many felt that the nation was paying poor women to throw their husbands out of the house. We have inspired several generations of this and it has had untold ramifications, bad ones, for the the Black Community.

If many do not aspire to poverty, how come so many more are succumbing to it? These programs should stop for the sake of the children.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

You so oversimplify. Why do you think the thug culture evolved in the first place? Either it is innate to black men to be violent or the behavior is a product of the environment. What do you think would create an environment where young men believe that being a ruthless hard ass is what it means to be a man? If it is not innate how else could this understanding have evolved in this culture? Understanding does not lead to excuse mind you, understanding leads to making a distinction between blame and responsibility and assembling solutions that address the root of the problem instead of letting white establishment off the hook and placing the mess we helped to create squarely in the laps of the people we minimized. The responsibility for the damage done in these communities is shared.

White liberal establishment has been let off the hook. They put these things into action courting the race hustlers and the votes the race hustlers could ante up with the hand outs. Your side created this problem and will not even look at common sense resolutions to the problem. Now we will just have to jail the "hard asses" as they are past, for the most part, being properly taught to live with the rest of society...and we need to stop subjecting more children to this spiraling downwards vortex they get caught up in ...and then its too late.

That IS the ROOT of the problem.

So, LIBERALS, please get out of the way and let US solve the problem, you folks only know how to exacerbate the problems... we certainly do not need to add gas to this already raging fire. And we sure do not need excuses for those that are, undeniably, doing bad.

Poverty is not the root of the problem either...I visit and live part time in countries where there is real, what is know as absolute poverty. Americans at worst live in what is known as relative poverty, relative to the super rich. Almost anywhere else in the world our poor would be considered either middle class or rich with what they have and own.

 

[opendebate]

White liberal establishment has been let off the hook. They put these things into action courting the race hustlers and the votes the race hustlers could ante up with the hand outs. Your side created this problem and will not even look at common sense resolutions to the problem. Now we will just have to jail the "hard asses" as they are past, for the most part, being properly taught to live with the rest of society...and we need to stop subjecting more children to this spiraling downwards vortex they get caught up in ...and then its too late.

That IS the ROOT of the problem.

So, LIBERALS, please get out of the way and let US solve the problem, you folks only know how to exacerbate the problems... we certainly do not need to add gas to this already raging fire. We sure do not need excuses for those that are, undeniably, doing bad.

Poverty is not the root of the problem either...I visit and live part time in countries where there is real, what is know as absolute poverty. Americans at worst live in what is known as relative poverty, relative to the super rich. Almost anywhere else in the world our poor would be considered either middle class or rich with what they have and own.

You have stopped listening.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

You have stopped listening.

You stopped making sense.

 

[opendebate]

You stopped making sense.

ugh. When you pin a way of thinking on me that I do not own, you have stopped listening.

 

[opendebate]

You stopped making sense.

Here is a major difference between you and I. I am not telling you that you are wrong. I am trying to get you to understand that you are not COMPLETELY right.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

ugh. When you pin a way of thinking on me that I do not own, you have stopped listening.

I am not just talking to you, we are having a discussion, but others are listening as well...and you are avoiding the real problems, trying to pin it on some mythical beast that can never be actually pinned down. People who do bad need to have consequences commensurate with what they have done. They cannot blame it, validly, on society, if you break the rules, and all but the legally insane know the rules, you have consequences.

Where and how do you think this thug culture developed, at its roots? I think these young men grew up without good male role models in the house... how did that happen? Truthfully. I can tell you it was not a bunch of white conservative guys forcing black males out of their traditional households, family structures that were often in place during and most certainly after slavery all the way up until the about the 1960s... trace the line...it was white liberals who did this dirty deed. You didn't do it, I sure didn't do it, but it was sure from your side ...and your side has to own it. if for no other reason than to know what not to do in the future. But you seem to still be buying their, the liberal, story and by doing so giving them cover behind which to hide...why?

If you want solutions, you have to be able to see the problem as it is, not how you want it to be.

 

[opendebate]

...

I am not just talking to you, we are having a discussion, but others are listening as well

This conversation is between you and I. Others may or may not be listening in, I do not represent all Progressives and I am certain you do not represent all Conservatives.

and you are avoiding the real problems

What real problems am I avoiding. Are you saying that because I attribute an issues to more than one cause that I am "avoiding"?

People who do bad need to have consequences commensurate with what they have done. They cannot blame it, validly, on society, if you break the rules, and all but the legally insane know the rules, you have consequences.

Here is an example of you not listening. I agree with this. People must have consequences for their actions. I also believe that people are individuals. Two people can arrive at the same place in life for entirely different reasons and the solutions that will help them effect change, if they want to, are probably also entirely different. If you want to help someone to change their life you have to understand who they are and how they got there.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

This conversation is between you and I. Others may or may not be listening in, I do not represent all Progressives and I am certain you do not represent all Conservatives.

Well, being individuals we can look at this differently as well. However, this is not a private conversation and others do get to hear and, hopefully, some may go away with something to think about at times.

What real problems am I avoiding. Are you saying that because I attribute an issues to more than one cause that I am "avoiding"?

Well, for one, you have avoided giving me facts or evidence of all this overbearing white domination that I asked you about and you confirmed you believed in... you want to lay blame where you have been asked and provided no evidence of blame. That is avoiding a real problem.

Secondly, I laid out for you where there is provable white culpability, white liberal blame, and you just kind of meander off dodging that by saying I am pinning that on you. The fact of the matter is the liberal blame is true. And the papable destruction after the preponderance of black males were removed from their proper place, the misery this has caused and how young black males have responded negatively to this absence... you have avoided that as you only took these points above to answer... and avoided that last one especially. What you are trying to do is blame pretty much all white America for what white liberals have caused... and what the black community has acquiesced to for too long.

There... are we straight on what we are talking about now?

Here is an example of you not listening. I agree with this. People must have consequences for their actions. I also believe that people are individuals. Two people can arrive at the same place in life for entirely different reasons and the solutions that will help them effect change, if they want to, are probably also entirely different. If you want to help someone to change their life you have to understand who they are and how they got there.

I think the military model, just as one notable example, proves you wrong. They don't really care where you came from or how you got there, they have a program and know where they want to go from there, the program being one of success and not programmed failure, one that is based on doing things, positive things, getting into good habits... they are not sitting down in a circle, harping and whining about the woe is me's of life which do absolutely nothing positive and only serve to take one downwards. Very rarely good to wallow in your pain. Leave the crap behind, do the good of the future.

 

[MaggieD]

If two white men beat an 88 year old black man to death as he sat in his car it would be all over the network news and the word hate crime would be front and center. This just happened so I'll cut the media some slack but I'm betting this never makes the national news. Anyway it's a very sad and tragic event.

SPOKANE, Wash. -- New security photos were released by officials showing the two suspects in Wednesday's deadly beating of an 88-year-old World War II Veteran.
Witnesses described the suspects as 16 to 18-year-old African American males of average build, according to authorities.
The 88-year-old victim, Delbert "Shorty" Belton, had been taken to the Intensive Care Unit after the assault at the Eagles Ice-A-Rena at Francis near Lidgerwood around 8:15 p.m. Officials said they found him with serious head injuries. He died Thursday morning at a local hospital. He's one hell of a guy," said Ted Denison, a friend of Belton. "He'll do anything in the world for anybody."
Investigators said Belton was attacked in the parking lot behind the arena, belonging to the Fraternal Order of Eagles. He had just arrived in his car to play pool with a female friend. A witness said she saw two young men run away from Belton's car. She found him by his vehicle badly beaten.

Photos show men accused of fatally beating WWII veteran | KREM.com Spokane

Googled and found it on ABC and CNN. Both stories state, "Race did not appear to be a factor." So I guess race is only a factor if it's a black victim and a nonblack perp. *shrug*

 

[opendebate]

.

I honestly think that it is a little adolescent to keep arguing about who's fault it is, not to mention a little arrogant because I don't know about you...but I'm a little white girl and I can't honestly say I know **** about what it means to grow up a young black male in the inner city or anywhere else for that matter and frankly, neither do you. And I really don't care as much about who's to blame as I do about being a part of solutions.

While I agree that for some young men what you call the "military solution" is effective, it would not work for all. I honestly believe that for some that approach does more harm than good. Whether you recognize it or not people are individuals and cramming them all into the same tiny little mold that suits you is ultimately destructive to many. But then I happen to embrace people uniqueness not find it threatening. (not accusing you)

Lastly, I have a hard time believing that anyone does not see the oppression that remains in this country. If I was able to provide you examples (which I can if you really want it) would you believe it? If you were to recognize a hint of racism in yourself, would you care?

 

[P. Kersey]

..........But then I happen to embrace people uniqueness not find it threatening.

.........If you were to recognize a hint of racism in yourself, would you care?

You mention "racism"...I Also noticed you said you were a white female. If you really want to experience "racism" first hand, I'd suggest you walk to the corner of W. Chicago St. and Livernois St in Detroit around midnight some night.( for example)

Top 25 Most Dangerous Neighborhoods in America

Then you'd get to experience the wonders of "diversity" and "multiculturalism" first hand, up close and personal.

 

[opendebate]

You mention "racism"...I Also noticed you said you were a white female. If you really want to experience "racism" first hand, I'd suggest you walk to the corner of W. Chicago St. and Livernois St in Detroit around midnight some night.( for example)

Top 25 Most Dangerous Neighborhoods in America

Then you'd get to experience the wonders of "diversity" and "multiculturalism" first hand, up close and personal.

I've been around, I do get it. I have probably in tougher situations with more threatening people than you ever have. I get it. I just don't take an entire race of people and paint them with the same brush. I don't think that because they are black they are this. I don't think that because you are white you are that.

 

[P. Kersey]

I've been around, I do get it. I have probably in tougher situations with more threatening people than you ever have. I get it.

Unless you've been to iraq/afghan or some other hot war zone, I dunno.It's doubtful.....but that's not really relevant.

I just don't take an entire race of people and paint them with the same brush. I don't think that because they are black they are this. I don't think that because you are white you are that.

That's right....but yet you make excuses for all blacks by alleging they are all oppressed by white people.

It's a hard fact that blacks commit disproportionate amounts of crime. They commit over half of ALL violent crime in america. Of course not every single one of them is a criminal.

We aren't judging them by "the color of their skin" We are judging them, based on evidence, "by the content of their character" and they are disproportionately found to be lacking.
Judgements made about a definable group (such as race) based on empirical evidence, scientific inquiry and proven historical facts (FBI crime data for instance) is "profiling". It is also called "threat recognition".
All animals including humans are conditioned to recognize and avoid proven threats. They ignore those traits at their own peril.

When blacks disproportionately and repeatedly fail at intellectual challenges and engage in violent criminal behavior...and it is proven that they do... they are reinforcing not only widely held stereotypes (including amongst blacks, BTW), but also the empirical data underpinning similar scientific conclusions.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

I honestly think that it is a little adolescent to keep arguing about who's fault it is, not to mention a little arrogant because I don't know about you...but I'm a little white girl and I can't honestly say I know **** about what it means to grow up a young black male in the inner city or anywhere else for that matter and frankly, neither do you. And I really don't care as much about who's to blame as I do about being a part of solutions.

as I stated earlier...

“…if for no other reason than to know what not to do in the future.” That is why we need to identify who has miscarried what was a great Civil Rights victory for the US and the world. All the good that was done has been squandered and we need to understand that so we can go into the future without any misgivings, any wondering if we are going in the right direction… at least we know which is the wrong direction. I liken the Black Community’s continuing to stick with the Democrat party to domestic abuse victims who have been fooled into thinking they love their abuser, that they cannot live without them.

Your solution seems, as far as I can determine, basically to be that we should hold the individuals doing the evils responsible but white racism, overt and subtle, is to blame. That is not a solution.

While I agree that for some young men what you call the "military solution" is effective, it would not work for all. I honestly believe that for some that approach does more harm than good. Whether you recognize it or not people are individuals and cramming them all into the same tiny little mold that suits you is ultimately destructive to many. But then I happen to embrace people uniqueness not find it threatening. (not accusing you)

Ask the mountains of victims that have been crammed into boxes and buried six feet under if they might like the perpetrators to have been more coming out of the good molds, tiny or not. People who go through our military are strong folk generally, they are still individuals, that is just a, no offense, silly viewpoint. Besides, I would rather we cram all the evil doers into the small little boxes instead.

Lastly, I have a hard time believing that anyone does not see the oppression that remains in this country. If I was able to provide you examples (which I can if you really want it) would you believe it? If you were to recognize a hint of racism in yourself, would you care?

Well, if you see racism everywhere whether it is there or not, do not expect everyone else to go willingly into that belief system. Maybe you see it in the folks you hang out with and should possibly reconsider who you call friends and fellow ideologues? As stated earlier, most of us seem to enjoy the company of people who are most similar to us. I enjoy all kinds of people when I travel outside the country. Generally I end up liking the Americans I meet outside the US the best. Not all Americans of course, many I avoid. But you would call that racist would you, my liking Americans best?

I find that, despite your protestations to the contrary, you do find blame, you seem to find fault in white people generally. I know you to be wrong and would refer you to one of the best thinkers about such things, Stanford economist Thomas Sowell. Pick up his books addressing race, particularly race in the USA. Probably my favorite overall author. He is Black by the way, not that that should matter one bit.

But go ahead, give me your evidence of widespread domination of Black people here by white people. I am open to truth, but only if it is truth.