• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Hypothetical scenario

Hypothetical scenario

  • Stop the abortion.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Stop the killing of the born child.

    Votes: 10 66.7%
  • Neither.

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • Total voters
    15

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
10,405
Reaction score
5,004
Location
Southeast Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Let's say that for whatever you find yourself in a situation where you have a choice to make.

You have an opportunity to do one of the following:

1. Stop a woman who is 5 months pregnant from having an abortion. If you choose this option, she will not have an abortion at a later date, and nature will take its course in terms of the development of the fetus.

2. Stop the mother of a month-old infant from killing it. If you choose this option, she will not later kill the child, and nature will take its course in terms of the child's development.

The whys and hows don't really matter, only the outcome. For whatever reason, choosing both outcomes is not an option. You must choose one or the other (or neither). Feel free to expound on why you chose what you did.
 

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
10,405
Reaction score
5,004
Location
Southeast Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Crap, I meant to add a poll to this. Would one of the mods mind adding a poll with the following options?

1. Stop the abortion.
2. Stop the killing of the born child.
3. Neither
 

mac

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
22,499
Reaction score
4,266
Location
DC Metro
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Let's say that for whatever you find yourself in a situation where you have a choice to make.

You have an opportunity to do one of the following:

1. Stop a woman who is 5 months pregnant from having an abortion. If you choose this option, she will not have an abortion at a later date, and nature will take its course in terms of the development of the fetus.

2. Stop the mother of a month-old infant from killing it. If you choose this option, she will not later kill the child, and nature will take its course in terms of the child's development.

The whys and hows don't really matter, only the outcome. For whatever reason, choosing both outcomes is not an option. You must choose one or the other (or neither). Feel free to expound on why you chose what you did.

I'll choose neither, unless by stop, you mean getting this woman the help she obviously needs.
 

Aunt Spiker

Cheese
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
28,431
Reaction score
16,987
Location
Sasnakra
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
That's not enough to net an answer from me.

I would never encourage someone not to have an abortion unless they are quite capable of taking care of a child. . . so the circumstances do matter.
If it's my sister then I'd intervene.
If it's someone I sort of know (from school or work) then perhaps I'd intervene - it depends on their life situation.
Someone I don't know at all - not my business and odds are that I wouldn't know if they were going to have an abortion.

Per the 2nd situation:
If someone's getting ready to murder their child right in front of me then of course I'd intervene.
if I 'heard it through the grapevine' that someone was bitter with their motherhood then, depending on the validity of the rumor or if I know the person and if I feel it's legitimate - I might intervene.

Most PPP sufferers suffer in silence - don't discuss their issues with *anyone* - and usual don't give any sign that they're thinking of killing their kids until it's too late. On the other hand - I've known some women who have, at times, felt they hated their kids an would like to be rid of them - but they sought help for these issues and are ideal parents, now, and have stirred no worries in me that they might do so.
 

Missed AB

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
1,714
Reaction score
363
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Let's say that for whatever you find yourself in a situation where you have a choice to make.

You have an opportunity to do one of the following:

1. Stop a woman who is 5 months pregnant from having an abortion. If you choose this option, she will not have an abortion at a later date, and nature will take its course in terms of the development of the fetus.

2. Stop the mother of a month-old infant from killing it. If you choose this option, she will not later kill the child, and nature will take its course in terms of the child's development.

The whys and hows don't really matter, only the outcome. For whatever reason, choosing both outcomes is not an option. You must choose one or the other (or neither). Feel free to expound on why you chose what you did.

Neither... I would choose to not get involved. History leads me to believe that one who is homicidal, is not the type of person I would want to confront.
 

jamesrage

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
34,987
Reaction score
16,581
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
So is this question some lame ass attempt to prove that the pro-lifers do not view the unborn child and the born child as equal?
 
Last edited:

Missed AB

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
1,714
Reaction score
363
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
So is this question some lame ass attempt to prove that the pro-lifers do not view the unborn child and the born child as equal?
I agree with you. The funny thing is under what circumstance would an individual be placed with both situations and only have the ability to stop one.
 

jamesrage

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
34,987
Reaction score
16,581
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
I agree with you. The funny thing is under what circumstance would an individual be placed with both situations and only have the ability to stop one.

The question is a hypothetical. So it does not matter if this would actually happen or not. Just a if you were placed in this situation and did not have a choice what would you chose to do..
 

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
10,405
Reaction score
5,004
Location
Southeast Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
So is this question some lame ass attempt to prove that the pro-lifers do not view the unborn child and the born child as equal?

Many pro-lifers say they think a fetus is fully equivalent to a born child. I'm interested to see how far that goes, and whether it's really true or not, or if it's just a talking point.
 

jamesrage

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
34,987
Reaction score
16,581
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Many pro-lifers say they think a fetus is fully equivalent to a born child. I'm interested to see how far that goes, and whether it's really true or not, or if it's just a talking point.

Seeing how I view a unborn and born child as both equal and many prolifers share this view then perhaps the only solution is to flip a coin, roll a dice, or some other method for randomly choosing.
 

Demon of Light

Bohemian Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,544
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If it was a now-or-never situation in both cases and both had equal chances of success I would probably end up stopping neither out of an inability to choose. On the other hand, as abortion is legal and infanticide is not I might feel more compelled to stop the latter as the consequences will go beyond one life. That is to say, the woman killing her newborn may ruin her own life while this is less likely to happen with the abortion.
 

jamesrage

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
34,987
Reaction score
16,581
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
If it was a now-or-never situation in both cases and both had equal chances of success I would probably end up stopping neither out of an inability to choose. On the other hand, as abortion is legal and infanticide is not I might feel more compelled to stop the latter as the consequences will go beyond one life. That is to say, the woman killing her newborn may ruin her own life while this is less likely to happen with the abortion.

Kind of hard to have sympathy for someone trying to kill their own kid regardless if that child is born or has yet to be born.
 

Missed AB

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
1,714
Reaction score
363
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Seeing how I view a unborn and born child as both equal and many prolifers share this view then perhaps the only solution is to flip a coin, roll a dice, or some other method for randomly choosing.

You call it an UNBORN child because you do NOT view them the same. If there was no difference it would not need a qualifier; it would be a child.
 

jamesrage

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
34,987
Reaction score
16,581
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
You call it an UNBORN child because you do NOT view them the same. If there was no difference it would not need a qualifier; it would be a child.

If I simply just said child then how would you know if I was talking about the 1 month old or the one still in the womb? Would I call the one in the womb a -4 month old?
 
  • Like
Reactions: mac

Demon of Light

Bohemian Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,544
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Kind of hard to have sympathy for someone trying to kill their own kid regardless if that child is born or has yet to be born.

You may find it hard, but I do not. People kill most often out of fear and I can sympathize with that fear. I also understand that what people do in times of despair is probably not something they will feel fine about later. At least an abortion will not lead to the other woman being locked up whether in a prison or a mental institution and losing years of her life.

Now, if the scenario is that the consequences for the two women will not be different it gets right back to indecision.
 

jamesrage

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
34,987
Reaction score
16,581
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
You may find it hard, but I do not. People kill most often out of fear and I can sympathize with that fear.

There are many justified reasons to kill someone. Like to defend yourself,others and property or to stop a known killer. However someone taking a innocent human life should have no sympathy.

I also understand that what people do in times of despair is probably not something they will feel fine about later. At least an abortion will not lead to the other woman being locked up whether in a prison or a mental institution and losing years of her life.

Now, if the scenario is that the consequences for the two women will not be different it gets right back to indecision.
Often times the Abortionist will play the sympathy card by arguing that if abortion became illegal except in the most extreme cases then women would be dying back ally abortion procedures. Would your sympathy extend to those who suffer due to back ally abortions?
 

Demon of Light

Bohemian Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,544
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
There are many justified reasons to kill someone. Like to defend yourself,others and property or to stop a known killer. However someone taking a innocent human life should have no sympathy.

That is just one of those ways people makes themselves comfortable. However, failing to have sympathy for someone just makes it harder to understand them and stop them.

Often times the Abortionist will play the sympathy card by arguing that if abortion became illegal except in the most extreme cases then women would be dying back ally abortion procedures. Would your sympathy extend to those who suffer due to back ally abortions?

My sympathy would still extend to them, though it would not change my perspective on the issue.
 

OscarB63

Farts in Elevators
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
26,526
Reaction score
9,462
Location
Alabama
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
typical logical fallacy of "the loaded question". sets the answerer up for the "ah ha, gotcha" no matter how they answer. so I will answer the question with a question:

Have you stopped molesting children? no qualifiers..just answer the question, yes or no.
 

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,586
Reaction score
50,204
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Many pro-lifers say they think a fetus is fully equivalent to a born child. I'm interested to see how far that goes, and whether it's really true or not, or if it's just a talking point.


It's not really a fair equivalence. There's nothing to choose between the two scenarios, as both end the life of a child.


This is more like "have you quit beating your wife, answer yes or no," push-poll kind of thing.
 

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
10,405
Reaction score
5,004
Location
Southeast Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
typical logical fallacy of "the loaded question". sets the answerer up for the "ah ha, gotcha" no matter how they answer. so I will answer the question with a question:

Have you stopped molesting children? no qualifiers..just answer the question, yes or no.

While I don't agree that it's a loaded question, I realize now that it's not really that useful for finding out the information that I want to know. It's easy to say that you would have trouble choosing between the two. In order to really prove or disprove my theory, I would need to actually put people in the situation that I proposed in my hypothetical question.
 

Dezaad

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
5,057
Reaction score
2,424
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
So is this question some lame ass attempt to prove that the pro-lifers do not view the unborn child and the born child as equal?

All you have to do is state that you would flip a coin, if you consider them to be equal. It really is simple. As for me, I would choose to save the person, that is, the born child.
 

Dezaad

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
5,057
Reaction score
2,424
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
While I don't agree that it's a loaded question, I realize now that it's not really that useful for finding out the information that I want to know. It's easy to say that you would have trouble choosing between the two. In order to really prove or disprove my theory, I would need to actually put people in the situation that I proposed in my hypothetical question.
Or people could just be intellectually honest and imagine themselves in the situation. It really is not difficult, unless you are avoiding the question.
 

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
10,405
Reaction score
5,004
Location
Southeast Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Or people could just be intellectually honest and imagine themselves in the situation. It really is not difficult, unless you are avoiding the question.

It's not that I feel people are lying. I think they truly believe that they would be unable to decide, feeling that the two choices were equivalent. My suspicion though, is that if actually faced with the choice, most would choose to save the born child. I could be wrong though.
 

Your Star

Rage More!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 15, 2010
Messages
27,241
Reaction score
19,930
Location
Georgia
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
You save the being that is alive, it's that simple.
 
Top Bottom