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Hypocrites!

steen

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Fantasea said:
I contend that human life begins at conception and continues without change until natural death in old age, unless interrupted by sickness, accident, or abortion.
I contend that humal life is merely continuiing, that the sperm and egg are alive and as such, human life began 125,000 years ago (for H. sapiens) or 6-7 mill years ago (for hominids).
If you opine differently, let's see the facts which support your opinion.
sperm and egg are alive.
 

blogger31

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vergiss said:
Nup, wrong. I was just arguing about you altering the meaning of "100 percent" as it suits you, that's all.

and how exactly was that? The environment for the fetus does not belong 100% to the mother, and if the fetus is dependent upon itself for some of it's environment then it is not 100% dependent upon the mother. Now if the mother did not supply what was needed then the child would simply be 100% dead due to the lack of that assistance. If you still disagree please show how a child can be 100% dependent when it creates much of it's own environment.
 

vergiss

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Fantasea said:
Next time you come in contact with a person who grew up in the circumstances you describe, ask him whether he would have preferred that his mother condemned him to death instead of condemning him to a miserable upbringing.

Why not take a poll, tabulate the results, and publish them in this forum?

I vaguely knew a guy who was raised by a teenage single mother. He had a nasty childhood and he ended it himself, ten months short of adulthood, with the help of a car and a closed garage.

That kind of answers your question.
 

Fantasea

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steen said:
I contend that humal life is merely continuiing, that the sperm and egg are alive and as such, human life began 125,000 years ago (for H. sapiens) or 6-7 mill years ago (for hominids).
sperm and egg are alive.
Sperm is sperm and an egg is an egg. While they remain apart, neither is human life and neither, by themselves, will ever become human life. However, once they are joined in conception, whether inside a petri dish, or inside a woman, a new separate and distinct human life is created.

You have not addressed this point.
 

steen

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Fantasea said:
Sperm is sperm and an egg is an egg. While they remain apart, neither is human life
But they ARE human life. They are alive, they come from humans with DNA derived fro, humans. Are they dead? Are they some other species? Your claim simply has nothing to do with reality.
and neither, by themselves, will ever become human life.
They are already human life.
However, once they are joined in conception, whether inside a petri dish, or inside a woman, a new separate and distinct human life is created.
Yeah, so is a scraping from the bottom of your foot put in a petri dish and growing to a 5# blob.. So is a hydatidiform mole. So? All live human cells are human life.
 

Fantasea

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vergiss said:
I vaguely knew a guy who was raised by a teenage single mother. He had a nasty childhood and he ended it himself, ten months short of adulthood, with the help of a car and a closed garage.

That kind of answers your question.
The anecdotal true life experiences of one of your boy friends does not constitute a valid poll.
 

Fantasea

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steen said:
But they ARE human life. They are alive, they come from humans with DNA derived fro, humans. Are they dead? Are they some other species? Your claim simply has nothing to do with reality.
They are already human life.
Yeah, so is a scraping from the bottom of your foot put in a petri dish and growing to a 5# blob.. So is a hydatidiform mole. So? All live human cells are human life.
You still have not addressed the point. You continue to skirt the issue.
 

steen

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Fantasea said:
The anecdotal true life experiences of one of your boy friends does not constitute a valid poll.
How dishonest of you. What you specifically asked was this:

Next time you come in contact with a person who grew up in the circumstances you describe, ask him whether he would have preferred that his mother condemned him to death instead of condemning him to a miserable upbringing.

And Vergiss provided example. And your reply? Well, the above shows your dishonesty.
 

Fantasea

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steen said:
How dishonest of you. What you specifically asked was this:

Next time you come in contact with a person who grew up in the circumstances you describe, ask him whether he would have preferred that his mother condemned him to death instead of condemning him to a miserable upbringing.

And Vergiss provided example. And your reply? Well, the above shows your dishonesty.
She was off in the tense and she didn't ask the question. She simply referred back to a past incident for which she had now way of knowing the reason. She simply makes an assumption that could be just one of a hundred or more reasons why a teen ager goes off the deep end.

Perhaps he knocked up some other teen ager and was suffering from post abortion stress syndrome. Who knows?

Re-read the challenge. It requires two things; a question posed, and a response received. Neither requirement is present in that response.

I am honest. You simply have difficulty comprehending what you read. However, you have no difficulty making rash accusations.
 

jallman

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Fantasea said:
She was off in the tense and she didn't ask the question. She simply referred back to a past incident for which she had now way of knowing the reason. She simply makes an assumption that could be just one of a hundred or more reasons why a teen ager goes off the deep end.

Perhaps he knocked up some other teen ager and was suffering from post abortion stress syndrome. Who knows?

Re-read the challenge. It requires two things; a question posed, and a response received. Neither requirement is present in that response.

I am honest. You simply have difficulty comprehending what you read. However, you have no difficulty making rash accusations.

It has been my observation thus far that his accusations are well founded. Anyone who would believe you are a neuro surgeon would have to be deluded as you are dishonest. You HAVE been given evidence, but you simply dismiss every one of them as "opining". The very medical professionals you call on to prove your points betray your flawed logic with each turn. You come at this debate with nothing to show except pro life essays and political sites. You didnt even comprehend the posting from a sophomore text book on human development. Why would anyone waste their time giving you any further sources and information? You dont absorb information unless it fits with your pro oppression agenda. Hell, even your own sources concerning the law betrayed the fallacy of your stance. And now, a couple posts above, you are taking sources from battleax of all people?

In reference to your outlandish claim of being a neurosurgeon...this may be a small sampling but...the only two neuro surgeons I ever knew (one from Duke Hospital and the other From Bowman Grey) were way to busy to spend the time you do here on this message board because they were...well, I dunno, doing neuro surgery. If you are a neuro surgeon, are you just not very busy (aka successful)?

And to the other pro lifers...I definitely do not hold this blatant dishonesty by fantasea against you. I would love to continue this debate with you guys.
 

vergiss

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Fantasea said:
She was off in the tense and she didn't ask the question. She simply referred back to a past incident for which she had now way of knowing the reason. She simply makes an assumption that could be just one of a hundred or more reasons why a teen ager goes off the deep end.

Perhaps he knocked up some other teen ager and was suffering from post abortion stress syndrome. Who knows?

Re-read the challenge. It requires two things; a question posed, and a response received. Neither requirement is present in that response.

I am honest. You simply have difficulty comprehending what you read. However, you have no difficulty making rash accusations.

Well, the fact that he was forever troubled by his childhood (and has discussed it with his friends) kind of provides a motive as well as fulfilling the two requirements.

That was a nice theory, by the way, but he was a virgin when he died. What's next - you're going to ignore what the coroner concluded and say he just did it because he was bored? :roll:

Cute. I did what you asked and you're still not happy, because it proved you wrong.
 

Fantasea

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vergiss said:
Well, the fact that he was forever troubled by his childhood (and has discussed it with his friends) kind of provides a motive as well as fulfilling the two requirements.

That was a nice theory, by the way, but he was a virgin when he died. What's next - you're going to ignore what the coroner concluded and say he just did it because he was bored? :roll:

Cute. I did what you asked and you're still not happy, because it proved you wrong.
This is what I asked.

Originally Posted by Fantasea
Next time you come in contact with a person who grew up in the circumstances you describe, ask him whether he would have preferred that his mother condemned him to death instead of condemning him to a miserable upbringing.

Why not take a poll, tabulate the results, and publish them in this forum?


This is what you provided:

Originally posted by Vergiss
I vaguely knew a guy who was raised by a teenage single mother. He had a nasty childhood and he ended it himself, ten months short of adulthood, with the help of a car and a closed garage.

That kind of answers your question.


Not even close.
 

Fantasea

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jallman said:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
She was off in the tense and she didn't ask the question. She simply referred back to a past incident for which she had now way of knowing the reason. She simply makes an assumption that could be just one of a hundred or more reasons why a teen ager goes off the deep end.

Perhaps he knocked up some other teen ager and was suffering from post abortion stress syndrome. Who knows?

Re-read the challenge. It requires two things; a question posed, and a response received. Neither requirement is present in that response.

I am honest. You simply have difficulty comprehending what you read. However, you have no difficulty making rash accusations.


It has been my observation thus far that his accusations are well founded. Anyone who would believe you are a neuro surgeon would have to be deluded as you are dishonest. You HAVE been given evidence, but you simply dismiss every one of them as "opining". The very medical professionals you call on to prove your points betray your flawed logic with each turn. You come at this debate with nothing to show except pro life essays and political sites. You didnt even comprehend the posting from a sophomore text book on human development. Why would anyone waste their time giving you any further sources and information? You dont absorb information unless it fits with your pro oppression agenda. Hell, even your own sources concerning the law betrayed the fallacy of your stance. And now, a couple posts above, you are taking sources from battleax of all people?

In reference to your outlandish claim of being a neurosurgeon...this may be a small sampling but...the only two neuro surgeons I ever knew (one from Duke Hospital and the other From Bowman Grey) were way to busy to spend the time you do here on this message board because they were...well, I dunno, doing neuro surgery. If you are a neuro surgeon, are you just not very busy (aka successful)?

And to the other pro lifers...I definitely do not hold this blatant dishonesty by fantasea against you. I would love to continue this debate with you guys.
Still blowing smoke, I see.

Neurosugeon? Simply a sarcastic retort to an outlandish claim by another poster. Since you are connected with a pair of them, why not ask their "opinion" on what that thing is inside a womb?
:violin
 

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Fantasea said:
Still blowing smoke, I see.

Neurosugeon? Simply a sarcastic retort to an outlandish claim by another poster. Since you are connected with a pair of them, why not ask their "opinion" on what that thing is inside a womb?
:violin

That thing inside the womb is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of science and I do believe it has been proven time and again that it is a fetus, not to be mistaken for a baby. But that doesnt fit with your revisionist oppressionist agenda, so I dont expect you to get that anymore.
 

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Fantasea said:
This is what I asked.

Originally Posted by Fantasea
Next time you come in contact with a person who grew up in the circumstances you describe, ask him whether he would have preferred that his mother condemned him to death instead of condemning him to a miserable upbringing.

Why not take a poll, tabulate the results, and publish them in this forum?


This is what you provided:

Originally posted by Vergiss
I vaguely knew a guy who was raised by a teenage single mother. He had a nasty childhood and he ended it himself, ten months short of adulthood, with the help of a car and a closed garage.

That kind of answers your question.


Not even close.

Are you familiar with the term "anal retentive"?

I knew a person relevent those circumstances - crappy upbringing vs. abortion. His opinion on the matter was made plainly obvious by his self-inflicted demise and the views he'd expressed beforehand. Therefore, I have met those requirements.

Oh, wait. Except for the poll. Would you rather a bar or pie graph?
 
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Fantasea

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jallman said:
That thing inside the womb is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of science and I do believe it has been proven time and again that it is a fetus, not to be mistaken for a baby. But that doesnt fit with your revisionist oppressionist agenda, so I dont expect you to get that anymore.
That's what I've been trying to get across to you from day one. I am thankful that you have finally accepted that it is not a matter of opinion.

Here is a quote from a much longer discussion which I think you might find helpful. It runs quite long. Be sure to read both pages.

"It is quite clear that what was known more than 100 years ago, even intuitively before that, is that the fusion of sperm and oocyte begins the life of the new individual human being. In Human Embryology the terms understood to be integral in the common sense language are: human, being, person, individual, human being, life and human life. Unfortunately, every one of those terms has been parsed and corrupted to mean something it is not."

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kisc/kisc_04whenlifebegins1.html

The abortion question was settled, not upon scientific or medical fact. It was simply a political decision designed to quiet a vocal minority; much the same as the 1973 decision of the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders.
 

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Vocal minority? I think not. If the majority opposed it, don't you think people would have noticed around election time?
 

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vergiss said:
Are you familiar with the term "anal retentive"?
Yes, I have heard it. However, although it seems to be a perfect fit for you, I refrain from calling names or hurling insults.
I knew a person relevent those circumstances - crappy upbringing vs. abortion. His opinion on the matter was made plainly obvious by his self-inflicted demise and the views he'd expressed beforehand.
Your logic is lacking.
Therefore, I have met those requirements.
You have not.
Oh, wait. Except for the poll.
That, too.
Would you rather a bar or pie graph?
I believe the correct terminology is "bar graph"; "pie chart".

You may present the data in any format you wish.
 

Fantasea

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vergiss said:
Vocal minority? I think not. If the majority opposed it, don't you think people would have noticed around election time?
How does one vote opposition to a Supreme Court decision?
 

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Destroy! Kill! That baby named Phil! Against the war. BE IRRESPONSIBLE AND BE A WHORE!
 

jallman

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Fantasea said:
That's what I've been trying to get across to you from day one. I am thankful that you have finally accepted that it is not a matter of opinion.

Here is a quote from a much longer discussion which I think you might find helpful. It runs quite long. Be sure to read both pages.

"It is quite clear that what was known more than 100 years ago, even intuitively before that, is that the fusion of sperm and oocyte begins the life of the new individual human being. In Human Embryology the terms understood to be integral in the common sense language are: human, being, person, individual, human being, life and human life. Unfortunately, every one of those terms has been parsed and corrupted to mean something it is not."

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kisc/kisc_04whenlifebegins1.html

Oh well here we go again. I feel like I should just have a form response to your posts. Thanks for revising what I said...let me repeat again for your convenience. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of science. The science is that the fetus is not a baby...nothing fully developed about it until the latter stages of pregnancy (i.e. when the spinal cord and brain are developed enough to show awareness and sense pain). you have been given medical fact over and over again, but you have repeatedly dismissed fact and countered with opinion from pro life sources. Try looking at a medical journal sometime. Then come back with a stance you can support.

The abortion question was settled, not upon scientific or medical fact. It was simply a political decision designed to quiet a vocal minority; much the same as the 1973 decision of the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders.

Hmm, I dont even know what to say to such an absurd statement. I do know this, you are flailing and pummeling the air at this point. Though it was probably the only sign of intelligence I have seen so far in bringing the comparison with homosexuality in this. Makes it easier to demonize the opposing stance, but still just smoke and mirrors. Once again, try using some fact and logic to your argument instead of depending on bias to taint the issue to your advantage.
 

steen

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satanloveslibs said:
Let me get this straight. You have Pascal's Wager in your sig, as if it is meaningful?
:doh
 

steen

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jallman said:
Oh well here we go again. I feel like I should just have a form response to your posts.
Are you still dealing with that one? Why bother? Dishonesty doesn't change merely because you challenge it.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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ILikeDubyah said:
Anyone else think it's just a bit hypocritical of these liberals that are for animal rights, ("Oh, oh, you can't hurt the defenseless little animals") to be for abortion of Human Babies?!?!
This has been stuck in my mind since I heard someone bad-mouthing Bill O'Reilly (who's ok in my book, don't love him, don't hate him), for being OK with the Pit Bull ban in several states. I said "Bill O'Reilly's ok, I don't agree with him on this issue, but I do on many others."
They replied with "any man who thinks it's OK to take away my "right" to choose (referring to abortion) will never be on my good list....Yet, she was there to voice her opinion against the "murder" of puppies.....So it's OK to kill unborn Human Babies, but not unborn puppies? I cannot follow this logic, someone please enlighten me!

Another point I'd like to make is that if it's ok to do research on human stem cells why not research on animals, they are both to help human beings right? I'm against abortion but for stem cell research and also for animal research.
 

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How have I not met your requirements, Fantasea? I think you just wish I hadn't met them, and think that if you close your eyes and wish hard enough, they'll go away. :lol:

Supreme Court decisions are not untouchable. If the majority were anti-abortion, an anti-abortion candidate would have been elected to do something about it.
 
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