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Hurray for these Christians!

God is sovereign, he works his will. You can think of Orlando or 9/11 as hints. Calling a group a "church" doesn't make it Godly.

So, Orlando and 9/11 was the work of your god. Your vile creed means nothing to me. Calling your 'God' a deity doesn't make him less evil.
 
I've often contributed to threads condemning fundamentalist religious bigotry. Wahhabism, WBC, Haredi and Moral Majority types have all had my condemnation. If you criticise wildly reactionary Christian morals strongly, then I think you also have the obligation to recognise when other Christian denominations do something that demonstrates love, acceptance and moral tolerance.

I was heartened to read this article about one such Christian church doing something positive and progressive. Good for the URC (Presbyterian/Congregationalist) if and when they make this momentous decision, and congratulations to the happy couple, whenever they tie the knot.

Gay marriage vote: The couple hoping to marry in church - BBC News

They're little-known outside Canada, but this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Canada

...is pretty much the face of Protestantism in Canada. Their head is called a 'Moderator' and a few years ago an openly gay guy held the office. They've got to be about the most peaceful, palatable Prods in the world.
 
And yet you leave it unanswered. I'm aware of the differences between Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant attitudes to scripture, tradition and mystery.

And I'm aware of that position too.


And yet you respect him? A heretic? So, how come you used the word 'heretic' as an insult with which to dismiss the URC?

Did Tertullian do that too? or was he perhaps a heretic because he was the first to interpret scripture in a particular way that contradicted tradition, not contradicted scripture itself, which is, after all, clearly open to interpretation.

I see, so their acceptance of gay marriage, which they DID indeed approve today, is secondary to the fact that they are scriptural Christians, rather than 'traditional' Christians.

Actually I did answer it.

This isn't a "position" this is a fact.

I said I respected him? When? He was a heretic because he taught (concerning remarriage of widows and fleeing persecution) that which was against what the Church taught. Like homosexuals can marry. Which is a contradiction of both scripture and tradition.

Their acceptance of gay marriage is indeed a testament to how far the apple has fallen from the tree. It's merely a symptom, a natural progression of a continued errancy of thought which has accumulated with time.

I think you have this simple notion of heresy. To be in full communion with the Church means that every jot and tittle you believe is as the Church has taught. As the jots and tittles pile up that you've thrown by the way side in accepting your own version of things, your own interpretation that doesn't align with the Church the less you are in communion with Her.

So, for instance, while I subscribe whole-heartedly and believe what is dogma and doctrine concerning the Church's social teaching (with the exception of one aspect of which I am still open to accepting), me being in communion with the Church there, I have ontological arguments that I feel need to be addressed, revisited, explored et al. that do not align with the Church's teaching. Therefore (oh, wonderful! therefore!) I can be considered a heretic in that regard. I'm not wholly in communion with the Church.

As it pertains to these individuals, their dogmas, doctrines, beliefs, etc etc... they are so far removed from communion with the Church that they can be called heretics on any number of issues not the least of which would be gay marriage.

It's not a case of you are either a True Believer or you are a Heretic. In or Out. It's a matter of degrees.
 
Actually I did answer it.

This isn't a "position" this is a fact.

I said I respected him? When? He was a heretic because he taught (concerning remarriage of widows and fleeing persecution) that which was against what the Church taught. Like homosexuals can marry. Which is a contradiction of both scripture and tradition.

Their acceptance of gay marriage is indeed a testament to how far the apple has fallen from the tree. It's merely a symptom, a natural progression of a continued errancy of thought which has accumulated with time.

I think you have this simple notion of heresy. To be in full communion with the Church means that every jot and tittle you believe is as the Church has taught. As the jots and tittles pile up that you've thrown by the way side in accepting your own version of things, your own interpretation that doesn't align with the Church the less you are in communion with Her.

So, for instance, while I subscribe whole-heartedly and believe what is dogma and doctrine concerning the Church's social teaching (with the exception of one aspect of which I am still open to accepting), me being in communion with the Church there, I have ontological arguments that I feel need to be addressed, revisited, explored et al. that do not align with the Church's teaching. Therefore (oh, wonderful! therefore!) I can be considered a heretic in that regard. I'm not wholly in communion with the Church.

As it pertains to these individuals, their dogmas, doctrines, beliefs, etc etc... they are so far removed from communion with the Church that they can be called heretics on any number of issues not the least of which would be gay marriage.

It's not a case of you are either a True Believer or you are a Heretic. In or Out. It's a matter of degrees.

I hear you. I'm just not sure that a self-confessed 'heretic', using the word as an insult, is being entirely ingenuous, in spite of talk of 'a matter of degrees'. I also don't think that the condemnation of protestant 'heresy' by a papist still imparts the sting it did in, say the year 1600. You are not disagreeing with the United Reformed Church because of their newly adopted, inclusive marriage policy, but because they are the United REFORMED Party. I guess that for a traditionalist, any sign of change can be used as a weapon in the counter-reformational struggle.

As an aside, it amuses me enormously that some Christian anti-Islamicists rightly condemn the retrogressive teachings of mainstream Islam, but go on to argue that the big difference between Islam and Christianity is the fact that Christianity had a reformation and that what Islam needs today is one of its own. Hilarious, given that followers of unreformed Christianity (Catholic, Oriental and Eastern Orthodox) outnumber the reformed by an order of 2-to-one.
 
I've often contributed to threads condemning fundamentalist religious bigotry. Wahhabism, WBC, Haredi and Moral Majority types have all had my condemnation. If you criticise wildly reactionary Christian morals strongly, then I think you also have the obligation to recognise when other Christian denominations do something that demonstrates love, acceptance and moral tolerance.

I was heartened to read this article about one such Christian church doing something positive and progressive. Good for the URC (Presbyterian/Congregationalist) if and when they make this momentous decision, and congratulations to the happy couple, whenever they tie the knot.

Gay marriage vote: The couple hoping to marry in church - BBC News

This is an abomination.

Gay sex is clearly a sin in the Bible. And thus, gay marriage would be nothing more than institutionalized sin.

The following quote from your article also was an exercise in folly: ""I don't think we're there yet, but I'm optimistic that we will get there. I think there has been a monumental societal shift within the LGBT community and that everybody widely accepts that this is about love," she says.

So, if it's all about love then two adulterers in love must be okay too. Nope, not a chance.

For the record,

"Love does not rejoice in iniquity" - 1 Corinthians 13

And,

"Love does no harm to a neighbor" - Romans 13:10 (Love does no harm to a neighbor, like enticing one's neighbor into a sinful relationship for which there are negative temporal and eternal consequences)

So, nice try but no cigar.
 
Tertullian, the father of latin Christianity, the one who is credited with the development of the Trinity as it is known today was branded a heretic for some of his thoughts.

I'd have to disagree. The "Trinity" was clearly evident in scripture long before Tertullian. He might have advanced what was already in scripture, but he didn't 'develop' it. There were others who commented on the concept before Tertullian.

https://carm.org/early-trinitarian-quotes
 
I've often contributed to threads condemning fundamentalist religious bigotry. Wahhabism, WBC, Haredi and Moral Majority types have all had my condemnation. If you criticise wildly reactionary Christian morals strongly, then I think you also have the obligation to recognise when other Christian denominations do something that demonstrates love, acceptance and moral tolerance.

I was heartened to read this article about one such Christian church doing something positive and progressive. Good for the URC (Presbyterian/Congregationalist) if and when they make this momentous decision, and congratulations to the happy couple, whenever they tie the knot.

Gay marriage vote: The couple hoping to marry in church - BBC News
Lol. So you celebrate Christians, as long as they behave the way you wish them to. How magnanimous of you. :roll:
 
This is an abomination.

Gay sex is clearly a sin in the Bible. And thus, gay marriage would be nothing more than institutionalized sin.

The following quote from your article also was an exercise in folly: ""I don't think we're there yet, but I'm optimistic that we will get there. I think there has been a monumental societal shift within the LGBT community and that everybody widely accepts that this is about love," she says.

So, if it's all about love then two adulterers in love must be okay too. Nope, not a chance.

For the record,

"Love does not rejoice in iniquity" - 1 Corinthians 13

And,

"Love does no harm to a neighbor" - Romans 13:10 (Love does no harm to a neighbor, like enticing one's neighbor into a sinful relationship for which there are negative temporal and eternal consequences)

So, nice try but no cigar.

A purported follower of a fgure who was so concerned about "an abomination" he never mentioned it? His message of universal love passed YOU by!
 
Lol. So you celebrate Christians, as long as they behave the way you wish them to. How magnanimous of you. :roll:

I'm hardly going to celebrate them doing something I deem despicable, now am I? I'm guessing you aren't celebrating this development because they aren't doing what you'd wish them to do. Circular logic.
 
He gave credit where it was due. Get in the sack with Chez and Logicman.

No he didn't. He praised Christians for behaving as he wished. Not surprised at the idiotic, childish, vulgar, ad hominem attack though, it's about all you've got.
 
I'm hardly going to celebrate them doing something I deem despicable, now am I? I'm guessing you aren't celebrating this development because they aren't doing what you'd wish them to do. Circular logic.

Why would I celebrate those who adopt heresy as an official part of their doctrine? It has nothing to do with what I wish them to do, it concerns what the God they claim to worship wishes them to do.


Do you applaud fellow leftists who are pro gun rights?
 
Why would I celebrate those who adopt heresy as an official part of their doctrine? It has nothing to do with what I wish them to do, it concerns what the God they claim to worship wishes them to do.
I suspect that their judgement of what constitutes heresy, and interpretation of what they believe their God wishes is different from yours. Who knows, perhaps it's not even the same God that you worship.


Do you applaud fellow leftists who are pro gun rights?
No. I don't have a pony in your gun control debate. None of my business.
 
Believers should recognise that your god is man-made when he hates the same people you do.
 
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Why would I celebrate those who adopt heresy as an official part of their doctrine? It has nothing to do with what I wish them to do, it concerns what the God they claim to worship wishes them to do.


Do you applaud fellow leftists who are pro gun rights?

Heretic is the Christian word for Infidel.

You know where that leads us to Brother.
 
A purported follower of a fgure who was so concerned about "an abomination" he never mentioned it?

Tsk tsk. I suppose you're talking about Jesus. And it's typical of you that you don't have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to the Bible.

FYI, Jesus is God (many scriptures). As God, Jesus is the one who gave Moses the Leviticus law against gay sexual relations to begin with; and he’s the one who inspires all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16), including prohibitions against gay sexual relations in Romans 1:26-27 and I Corinthians 6:9-10, etc.

It’s also worth noting that Jesus didn’t mention wife beating or other sins such as pedophilia either, and there are not many folks who would argue he approved of those behaviors. So Jesus was under no obligation to reiterate the moral laws against homosexual sin that already existed, unless there were clarifications to be made.

So, do try to incorporate those things into your theological handbook.

His message of universal love passed YOU by!

The truth has evidently passed YOU by.

So get your story straight. He didn't approve of sinful behaviors, Manc. That's a fact.
 
Changing the fundamental ethics offers a religion is always tempting to attract more payers. Finance is a strong motivator.

This is interesting at a time, when the Christian population is growing faster than the global population. You see, it is continuity of law that is a major atractor of religions. Jettisoning it is risky stuff as beliefs generally loose legitimacy, when they go relativistic.

How do you know that it isn't the changes in policies, rules, edicts, ethics, whatever you want to call it, that isn't attracting more Christians? That could be the very thing that is increasing those numbers, particularly in either developed countries or in countries where the dominate religion is even more hostile.


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Heretic is the Christian word for Infidel.

You know where that leads us to Brother.

Where does it lead? Orthodox teaching? Obedience to God?

Its one thing to have doctrinal differences of opinion, it's another thing entirely to eschew doctrine altogether.
 
Where does it lead? Orthodox teaching? Obedience to God?

Its one thing to have doctrinal differences of opinion, it's another thing entirely to eschew doctrine altogether.

That would lead to executing all who are not rightous in the name of Jesus Christ.

This has been tried before.
 
That would lead to executing all who are not rightous in the name of Jesus Christ.

This has been tried before.

Oh good grief, gimme a break. Talk about heresy. :roll:
 
How do you know that it isn't the changes in policies, rules, edicts, ethics, whatever you want to call it, that isn't attracting more Christians? That could be the very thing that is increasing those numbers, particularly in either developed countries or in countries where the dominate religion is even more hostile.


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That is not, what I have read nor is it the general opinion I have heard from people in the Catholic or Lutheran churches. But, if you have links to long term studies, it is a subject that I am interested in.
 
Oh good grief, gimme a break. Talk about heresy. :roll:

Blasphemy might get you excommunicated, while heresy is a death sentence.

Shirley, you know this.
 
Blasphemy might get you excommunicated, while heresy is a death sentence.

Shirley, you know this.

Yeah, modern Christians are executing heretics left and right. :roll:
 
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