Hunger Games 1

[VanceMack]

Far too many people who own guns on this forum think the first answer is to shoot. I think these scenerios are great mind games -- the closest most of us will ever get to being in a position where we even draw a gun, much less use it in self-defense. IMO, those posters who continually talk about their "right to shoot" had better hope they never get into a situation where that's needed. I think many of them would end up in jail.

Your advice, in my humble and uneducated opinion, is spot on. Has been throughout this thread.

Thanks Maggie. All of this is speculation on scenario. Best case, worst case...and then it can all change when the whip comes down. I truly believe that 99% of the battle is mental. Dont present as a victim you arent likely to BECOME a victim. Thugs tend to prefer low hanging fruit and unarmed insecure victims make great targets. Dood doesnt agree with that...thats fine.

 

[MaggieD]

The ones with the mindset to "continually talk about it" as you say, are the ones that are ready at the drop of a hat to defend self and family.
Not the ones that bought a gun, then if something happens starts to question themselves or not know what to do at all.
Once you have that mindset, its second nature.

I'm ready to do the same. I've answered the door with my gun in my hand. (Midnight, young man at the door; I was home alone.) That's hopefully as close as I'll ever get to defending my home and family. I don't relish the idea. I don't practice loading/re-loading. I don't look into a mirror and practice verbal judo when no one's home. I don't think about "Make My Day" movie scenes; and I hope to God I never have to point my gun at another human being and pull the trigger.

When you look for trouble, you run a higher risk of finding it. No thank you.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Ironic you make that statement since it is the ESSENCE of my response which you seem to have such a hard time with.

Everyone does things different. My last statement is to stop things before they go in motion. Now once some scumbags surround you, like the OP's situation decribes, then you have to prepare for the worst case scenario in a heartbeat.
I dont know how old you are, but like I said. At 50, I am not inclined to take on 4 guys at once. When I was 25, hell yea. Not 50.
I also didnt say to draw and "blast away". Every situ is different. If it develops slow enough, maybe just the gun being seen is enough to get them to move on. Maybe not. If not, what then. You going to have a stand off for how long? Are you alone, or is your wife and or child with you?
Are these guys that look like they could play in the NFL or are just some skinny beat down meth punks? Situational awareness, know whats going on around you.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I'm ready to do the same. I've answered the door with my gun in my hand. (Midnight, young man at the door; I was home alone.) That's hopefully as close as I'll ever get to defending my home and family. I don't relish the idea. I don't practice loading/re-loading. I don't look into a mirror and practice verbal judo when no one's home. I don't think about "Make My Day" movie scenes; and I hope to God I never have to point my gun at another human being and pull the trigger.

When you look for trouble, you run a higher risk of finding it. No thank you.

The OP had nothing to do with "looking for trouble". You make alot of assumptions. Funny though, you dont practice loading/reloading.
I dont know what you carry, but no hand gun is going to take down every man every time and you may face more than one armed person.
You may want to start practicing tatical reloading of your weapon. Once the engagement is made, you dont always know how long its going to last.
Many rounds wont even penetrate a heavy enough jacket and body armor is very prevelent and easy to come by.
I dont relish having to shoot anyone much less kill them, but if its ever going to be me and my family OR them. I will do everything in my power to make it them.

 

[VanceMack]

Everyone does things different. My last statement is to stop things before they go in motion. Now once some scumbags surround you, like the OP's situation decribes, then you have to prepare for the worst case scenario in a heartbeat.
I dont know how old you are, but like I said. At 50, I am not inclined to take on 4 guys at once. When I was 25, hell yea. Not 50.
I also didnt say to draw and "blast away". Every situ is different. If it develops slow enough, maybe just the gun being seen is enough to get them to move on. Maybe not. If not, what then. You going to have a stand off for how long? Are you alone, or is your wife and or child with you?
Are these guys that look like they could play in the NFL or are just some skinny beat down meth punks? Situational awareness, know whats going on around you.

You must then continue to misinterpret my initial statement or miss the fact that I said I called the police and began taking photopgrahs AS SOON AS I RECOGNIZED A POTENTIAL THREAT...not after I have been surrounded by 5 bad people with evil intent. The goal would be for them to have a change of heart before it reaches that point. IF it reaches that point...me and the leader...and I only have eyes for him. Dont know what movies you watch, but criminals in general arent circling and engaging an armed citizen. They see gun, they typically have a change of (or rather lack of) heart. There are countless real world videos of what happens once a would be attacker realizes they have engaged an armed citizen. The vast majority of times, its assholes and elbows.

 

[MaggieD]

Thanks Maggie. All of this is speculation on scenario. Best case, worst case...and then it can all change when the whip comes down. I truly believe that 99% of the battle is mental. Dont present as a victim you arent likely to BECOME a victim. Thugs tend to prefer low hanging fruit and unarmed insecure victims make great targets. Dood doesnt agree with that...thats fine.

That victim thing. I really believe that. I've been marked for a purse snatching a couple of times. I'm a tall woman who doesn't present as a victim, in my opinion. Confident walk. Aware of surroundings. Both times, I made eye contact with the guy (both were guys) and they took off in another direction. Interestingly, both times I had a spidey sense they were coming -- and both times from 8 o'clock behind me.

I never would find myself in the situation the OP defined. My answer earlier was, that if I had a sudden brain lapse and did those risky things, I'd be walking to my car with my gun in my hand shielded from view and on full alert. But, really? I'd never put myself in that position.

 

[MaggieD]

The OP had nothing to do with "looking for trouble". You make alot of assumptions. Funny though, you dont practice loading/reloading.
I dont know what you carry, but no hand gun is going to take down every man every time and you may face more than one armed person.
You may want to start practicing tatical reloading of your weapon. Once the engagement is made, you dont always know how long its going to last.
Many rounds wont even penetrate a heavy enough jacket and body armor is very prevelent and easy to come by.
I dont relish having to shoot anyone much less kill them, but if its ever going to be me and my family OR them. I will do everything in my power to make it them.

I have a Taurus .38 revolver. When I can get my CCW, I'll probably get an automatic.

 

[CRUE CAB]

You must then continue to misinterpret my initial statement or miss the fact that I said I called the police and began taking photopgrahs AS SOON AS I RECOGNIZED A POTENTIAL THREAT...not after I have been surrounded by 5 bad people with evil intent. The goal would be for them to have a change of heart before it reaches that point. IF it reaches that point...me and the leader...and I only have eyes for him. Dont know what movies you watch, but criminals in general arent circling and engaging an armed citizen. They see gun, they typically have a change of (or rather lack of) heart. There are countless real world videos of what happens once a would be attacker realizes they have engaged an armed citizen. The vast majority of times, its assholes and elbows.

Your phone full of pics is not going to be doing you any good once its in the pocket of an attacker.
The OP had 4 guys, I think, making their way towards you. You think you can spot the "leader" in a group that may be working to get into a gang. You may be his initination victim. The leader may not say a word.
You lock on one out of 4 or 5 guys, you are done. Stick a fork in you.
You back up enough to keep all of them in your line of sight, I said that in my first post, and if they keep coming, you draw.
Once you draw though, there can be no quibbling about what you are willing to do.
Every one, everyones training, everyones mindset is different. I personally am not pulling my phone before my gun, if its a situation where my gun must come out. Its the first player in the game, then if there is time the phone. I believe that once the gun is in play, all of my attention is on my adversary and my gun. Letting other things in the mind at that point may get me killed.

 

[CRUE CAB]

That victim thing. I really believe that. I've been marked for a purse snatching a couple of times. I'm a tall woman who doesn't present as a victim, in my opinion. Confident walk. Aware of surroundings. Both times, I made eye contact with the guy (both were guys) and they took off in another direction. Interestingly, both times I had a spidey sense they were coming -- and both times from 8 o'clock behind me.

I never would find myself in the situation the OP defined. My answer earlier was, that if I had a sudden brain lapse and did those risky things, I'd be walking to my car with my gun in my hand shielded from view and on full alert. But, really? I'd never put myself in that position.

Never say never. You may not, but you dont know the intentions of others and how they may force your hand.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I have a Taurus .38 revolver. When I can get my CCW, I'll probably get an automatic.

Get at least one speed loader.
And you will get a "semi" automatic. LOL
I like the new Sig P239, slightly larger then the P238 but in 9mm instead of .380.

 

[VanceMack]

Your phone full of pics is not going to be doing you any good once its in the pocket of an attacker.
The OP had 4 guys, I think, making their way towards you. You think you can spot the "leader" in a group that may be working to get into a gang. You may be his initination victim. The leader may not say a word.
You lock on one out of 4 or 5 guys, you are done. Stick a fork in you.
You back up enough to keep all of them in your line of sight, I said that in my first post, and if they keep coming, you draw.
Once you draw though, there can be no quibbling about what you are willing to do.
Every one, everyones training, everyones mindset is different. I personally am not pulling my phone before my gun, if its a situation where my gun must come out. Its the first player in the game, then if there is time the phone. I believe that once the gun is in play, all of my attention is on my adversary and my gun. Letting other things in the mind at that point may get me killed.

The OP says there was a leader and yeah...I think i can usually pick out the 'leader' from a block away.

Revisit the scenario. They didnt jump out at you. They didnt swarm you from out of a dark alleyway. Prior to their action and surrounding you you have NOTHING to act on. Me...Im taking advantage of that time. If I'm on the phone with the cops and they know it, there is much less motivation to attack. If I've taken a picture and sent it to someone...Its not 'just' on my phone and there is much less motivation to attack. If I have a legally owned and carried weapon, drawn and at the ready and demonstrated a willingness to use it, they are less likely to engage. I guess in your mind the 5 thugs are straight off a Hollywood set and they are still going to attack even after their intended victim has presented a weapon and a will. Not likely.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

That victim thing. I really believe that. I've been marked for a purse snatching a couple of times. I'm a tall woman who doesn't present as a victim, in my opinion. Confident walk. Aware of surroundings. Both times, I made eye contact with the guy (both were guys) and they took off in another direction. Interestingly, both times I had a spidey sense they were coming -- and both times from 8 o'clock behind me.

I never would find myself in the situation the OP defined. My answer earlier was, that if I had a sudden brain lapse and did those risky things, I'd be walking to my car with my gun in my hand shielded from view and on full alert. But, really? I'd never put myself in that position.

It seems you have a guardian angel. :thumbs:

 

[CRUE CAB]

The OP says there was a leader and yeah...I think i can usually pick out the 'leader' from a block away.

Revisit the scenario. They didnt jump out at you. They didnt swarm you from out of a dark alleyway. Prior to their action and surrounding you you have NOTHING to act on. Me...Im taking advantage of that time. If I'm on the phone with the cops and they know it, there is much less motivation to attack. If I've taken a picture and sent it to someone...Its not 'just' on my phone and there is much less motivation to attack. If I have a legally owned and carried weapon, drawn and at the ready and demonstrated a willingness to use it, they are less likely to engage. I guess in your mind the 5 thugs are straight off a Hollywood set and they are still going to attack even after their intended victim has presented a weapon and a will. Not likely.

Hope your way works for you, if you ever need it. I will stick to my experience and determinations.
And the mouthy one is not always the leader, all the time. No two situations are going to present the same way and unfold the same way.
You have to be ready anything, at anytime and respond accordingly.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

I have a Taurus .38 revolver. When I can get my CCW, I'll probably get an automatic.

You still haven't gotten your CCW permit? What are you waiting for? It's worth every penny you spend to have to get it.

 

[MaggieD]

You still haven't gotten your CCW permit? What are you waiting for? It's worth every penny you spend to have to get it.

I'm waiting for Illinois.

They tell us that it'll take maybe six months before everything is in place to accept applications. *shrug*

 

[BretJ]

I think you are stretching things a bit with that comment

I can see this ballooning out of control.

 

[molten_dragon]

You accepted an invitation to a birthday party in your home town.

View attachment 67151238


The evening of the party, you make a series of mistakes leading to a bad situation you must now deal with.

You park on the only available street with a space within a reasonable distance to a party. The street is quite dark and near an area of crime. That night as you walk back towards you car after leaving the party, still half a block away from your car, 4 guys walk quickly towards you appearing around one corner. They begin to yell out insults and when near, their seeming "leader" stands in front of you blocking your way forward on the sidewalk and says something like: "Hey my friends Mr Suit and Tie here looks like he has some good money on him" and all 4 begin to joke about your fine clothes and money you must have on you - as the same time each slowly moves into a circle around you, one either side, one behind and the original guy in front.

At this point you sense an attack that could be moments away. It's not happening nor is anyone actually threatened you directly. Their taunting talk about your money and physical moves into a circle around you feels very threatening to you.

What do you do?

*****
Thinking and Self-Defense
Boyd

I'd have turned around and headed back to a more well-lit and civilized area as soon as they started shouting out insults. If I was confronted anyway, and they started talking about how I looked like I had money, I'd draw my gun before letting them surround me, tell them that all I wanted was to get back to my car in peace and hope they decided to move on to an easier target. If they did anything aggressive at that point, I'd shoot.

 

[Jerry]

Your phone is not a weapon. Nothing about your phone that will stop people in their tracks, and they know how long its going to be to get cops to you. You will be on the ground and beaten to a pulp and robbed of everything you have long before the cops even roll.
Sure, you may get a good lick in on one of them. Big deal when you got 4 people to contend with.
Start screaming on the phone to the police you have a gun, you will be viewed as a nut case more than likely be cuffed and stuffed until the cops "figure it all out".
Stop watching Jack Reacher and get some training.

Just to offer some perspective, I have a Motorola Elite Sliver, and I usually put it back in my ear whenever I leave a building going back to my car. It's just habbit, so that I can call and take calls while driving.

If I were walking out of a party I would likely have my Sliver in my ear. In low light my calling the police would look like me touching my ear and saying "call 911". The 4 perps would probably think I were talking to them or myself, since that's what people in stores generally assume when I'm on a call while shopping (the few who notice the Sliver assume it's a hearing aid and move to the other side of me to talk to me).

You're right, a phone call isn't a weapon, but it's such an easy thing to do in the lead-up to an incident; and hands-free.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

I'm waiting for Illinois.

They tell us that it'll take maybe six months before everything is in place to accept applications. *shrug*

Wow, that is truly unacceptable. What on earth do you have to do that takes 6 months just to submit an application?

 

[MaggieD]

Wow, that is truly unacceptable. What on earth do you have to do that takes 6 months just to submit an application?

This is from the Illinois State Police website:

The ISP will make applications available to the public by January 5, 2014. The ISP intends to have applications available via the ISP webpage.

To answer your question specifically? Who the hell knows??

 

[joko104]

My wife was specifically trained and situationally rehearsed in such regards over and over and over. 1 or more men in an isolated setting she doesn't know approaching her - menacing or not (bad guys don't tend to announce their intent.) At 30 feet she rages out for him/them to stop. At 20 feet she draws (she's amazingly fast) and levels her laser sight on him or the closest man while roaring out "stop or I will kill you!" If he doesn't at 10 feet she fires.

She had twice drawn at 20 feet since then in parking lots. You know what happened then? Absolutely nothing. Both times the guy backed away - she'll never know what his intentions were. And she got in her vehicle and drove off. Mission accomplished in the goal of absolutely nothing happening.

Yeah, the guy probably thinks she's some we wacked out crazy blonde with a gun - EXACTLY the impression she wanted to make.

 

[Goshin]

You accepted an invitation to a birthday party in your home town.

View attachment 67151238


The evening of the party, you make a series of mistakes leading to a bad situation you must now deal with.

You park on the only available street with a space within a reasonable distance to a party. The street is quite dark and near an area of crime. That night as you walk back towards you car after leaving the party, still half a block away from your car, 4 guys walk quickly towards you appearing around one corner. They begin to yell out insults.... (Edit STOP HERE!)

Having spotted them early and classified them as "potential threat" I would not wait any longer; I would do what I have done in the past in such situations... pick my ground and take a tactically sound position. There's probably some kind of cover nearby where I can keep them from encircling me, and provide some cover if they are armed and shoot back.


Given that there are four of them, I'm not interested in going HTH if that can be avoided. In most such scenarios I will be armed, so I will have my hand on my pistol, having already secured a proper grip will be ready to draw and if need be fire in under a second. (Clearing and securing a proper grip is one of the most time-expensive portions of a drawstroke, so it pays to do it early if you feel threatened. A little strategic body positioning can hide this from others if that is desired; sometimes making it obvious is your best bet---- perps know what a man with his hand on a gun looks like.)


I would then say "Guys, I don't have anything on me worth your life, and that's the price tag."

If the situation escalated any further I'd drop behind my cover and draw, taking aim at the worst threat first and prepared to open fire.


So I don't really need the rest of this scenario, because I'm not likely to ever let it get that far....

and when near, their seeming "leader" stands in front of you blocking your way forward on the sidewalk and says something like: "Hey my friends Mr Suit and Tie here looks like he has some good money on him" and all 4 begin to joke about your fine clothes and money you must have on you - as the same time each slowly moves into a circle around you, one either side, one behind and the original guy in front.

At this point you sense an attack that could be moments away. It's not happening nor is anyone actually threatened you directly. Their taunting talk about your money and physical moves into a circle around you feels very threatening to you.

What do you do?

*****
Thinking and Self-Defense
Boyd

 

[joko104]

This is from the Illinois State Police website:



To answer your question specifically? Who the hell knows??

This is the police defying the law in a way they can get away with.

 

[joko104]

As for myself, if off duty it very likely I'm not armed. My history was of conflicts myself unarmed.

I would make a fast decision of whether I could successfully flee (run away). If so, I would. If not, I would draw them in. Granted I am a few years older than when such analogously similar situations was virtually my life style, but not very many years. 6ish. And I was up against weapons in the past not that rarely. I wanted in close if that a potential. The 4 may learn they have miscalculated. Badly.

HOWEVER, that's me now. As the years continue to come I will more and more rely upon being armed, unless my wife is with me. Then I'm covered. Since her firearms training, roles have somewhat reversed and she has become MY body guard. I'm just fine with that.

 

[blackjack50]

Gun would have been concealed in my hand behind my back as they had acknowledged my existence...and the phone in the other while the police were on their way.