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Huge Republican mistake

just about every retired person I know same with every widow I know who was a home maker


Bringing out the big guns? Widows, home makers? What does that have to do with anything? Most retirees are living on pensions and social security, not Wall Street investments.
And a number of them are still working, thanks to the market. Good thing GWB didn't get his way allowing people to invest part of their SS in the market....
 
Bringing out the big guns? Widows, home makers? What does that have to do with anything? Most retirees are living on pensions and social security, not Wall Street investments.
And a number of them are still working, thanks to the market. Good thing GWB didn't get his way allowing people to invest part of their SS in the market....

what do you think funds pensions
and yes most people who are intelligent and thrifty have investment incomes by the time they retire
SS is a ponzi scheme
I could make 8 times the money on what was taken from me if I had been allowed to invest it
 
a couple of points along the way.

1. the vast majority of America's wealthy are first-generation. mostly they are small business owners who have built their business from the ground up over a series of many years. the notion that when you take aim at 'the rich' you are hitting wall street fat cats and paris hilton simply isn't an accurate depiction of what you are doing.

2. pensions generally = investments, yes, of the wall street type. one of the more ironic examples of this would be when teachers unions were given the short shrift by the government during the GM meltdown. it is virtually impossible to tear down one part of the economy without tearing at all of the economy.

3. some level of social security privatization is coming; and that's a good thing. it will make growth more stable, increase the wealth of our retirees, and reduce their dependence upon our welfare state.

it would also put increased pressure on politicians not to villify our productive class, or attempt to turn one set of Americans against another.
 
There certainly are, just as there are Republicans who serve the common man.

I know lots of high ranking republicans. I grew up with one of the top Republicans in Ohio and his late mother threw an engagement party for my wife and I. four of my closest college friends founded the Federalist Society which is a leading mover and shaker in conservative legal circles. I have never met a republican who wanted people to stay poor. In fact the GOP is best served when LESS people are on welfare or addicted to government handouts


rich dems are equally well known to me. and many of them have a paternalistic attitude-the only thing that comes close to it is what I observed in Kenya many years ago speaking to British Colonialists about the "natives" or rich South Americans mainly of Spanish blood discussing the native indian-peasant population. An attitude that the poor are incapable of self governence without the "enlightened guidance" of the elite

anyone who believes that the ultra rich dems really want the poor to climb out of poverty is deluded. If somehow we were able to enact policies (or get rid of many laws) that would drastically reduce the number of people dependent on the government, the dems would take massive electoral losses. Not only would they lose tons of voters, their appeal to soft headed utopiansa would be undercut with so many less people "needing" government handouts.
 
from an earlier post:

The median income in the United States is about 50,000 annually. FICA tax is 7.65%. 1/3rd of that is 2.55%, but if you're throwing in 1/3rd to a private account, probably your employers' match will do the same, so you're throwing 5.1% of that income in. 5.1% of 50,000 is $2,550. Adjusting downward for both inflation and compounded annual growth rates, the average rate of return between Jan 1 1982 and Dec 31 2009 was 7.98%. So your average worker, entering the workforce at (say) 22, and making an income that averages out to the median over the course of his life is going to invest an average of $2,550 a year at an average of 7.98% return. Retiring at a higher age of (say) 68, he will have about 1.2 million dollars in that account. Moving it into a safer account with (say) a 5% guaranteed rate of return means that this retiree will be drawing $60,000 a year from the interest alone, and still have that 1.2 million (so long as they live on solely their interest) to pass on to their children upon their passing. What if the market tanks right as they are about to retire? well, the worst possible answer is it tanks right before they do, to the extent that it just did, which last occured about 80 years ago; so it's a pretty rare event. that tank took 40% off the market. that would put you at 720K, but the market doesn't and didn't stay there; dips are U-shaped. so let's say you withdraw 40K a year of principle during the two years in which the market recovers. now, over this last year of 2009 we continued the dive during the first part and began to rise during the second part; seeing a total 23% return over the course of the year from Jan 1 to Dec 31. So if you withdraw 40K from that 720 at the beginning of the year and then have the remaining 680 grow at 23% for a year you are now sitting on 853,000. do the same for year two, which we will say tapers off at a simple 20% increase (for simplicity); and your nest egg is now back up to $991,364. 5% of that would be an average income of that would be $49,568.20 annual income (all of this is adjusted for inflation); or, about 400 bucks shy of your usual annual income.

heck, if you made these private accounts exempt from capital gains tax; you could theoretically get the of the cap (IE; bring in alot more revenue) without seeing the negative effects such a move would typically had. you might possibly even get high-income earners pushing for this; how often does an entire class push to increase their taxes?
 
from an earlier post:

The median income in the United States is about 50,000 annually. FICA tax is 7.65%. 1/3rd of that is 2.55%, but if you're throwing in 1/3rd to a private account, probably your employers' match will do the same, so you're throwing 5.1% of that income in. 5.1% of 50,000 is $2,550. Adjusting downward for both inflation and compounded annual growth rates, the average rate of return between Jan 1 1982 and Dec 31 2009 was 7.98%. So your average worker, entering the workforce at (say) 22, and making an income that averages out to the median over the course of his life is going to invest an average of $2,550 a year at an average of 7.98% return. Retiring at a higher age of (say) 68, he will have about 1.2 million dollars in that account. Moving it into a safer account with (say) a 5% guaranteed rate of return means that this retiree will be drawing $60,000 a year from the interest alone, and still have that 1.2 million (so long as they live on solely their interest) to pass on to their children upon their passing. What if the market tanks right as they are about to retire? well, the worst possible answer is it tanks right before they do, to the extent that it just did, which last occured about 80 years ago; so it's a pretty rare event. that tank took 40% off the market. that would put you at 720K, but the market doesn't and didn't stay there; dips are U-shaped. so let's say you withdraw 40K a year of principle during the two years in which the market recovers. now, over this last year of 2009 we continued the dive during the first part and began to rise during the second part; seeing a total 23% return over the course of the year from Jan 1 to Dec 31. So if you withdraw 40K from that 720 at the beginning of the year and then have the remaining 680 grow at 23% for a year you are now sitting on 853,000. do the same for year two, which we will say tapers off at a simple 20% increase (for simplicity); and your nest egg is now back up to $991,364. 5% of that would be an average income of that would be $49,568.20 annual income (all of this is adjusted for inflation); or, about 400 bucks shy of your usual annual income.

heck, if you made these private accounts exempt from capital gains tax; you could theoretically get the of the cap (IE; bring in alot more revenue) without seeing the negative effects such a move would typically had. you might possibly even get high-income earners pushing for this; how often does an entire class push to increase their taxes?

What are the average return for the last decade? How much can you get on a CD today? Money Market? Bonds?
 
from an earlier post:

The median income in the United States is about 50,000 annually. FICA tax is 7.65%. 1/3rd of that is 2.55%, but if you're throwing in 1/3rd to a private account, probably your employers' match will do the same, so you're throwing 5.1% of that income in. 5.1% of 50,000 is $2,550. Adjusting downward for both inflation and compounded annual growth rates, the average rate of return between Jan 1 1982 and Dec 31 2009 was 7.98%. So your average worker, entering the workforce at (say) 22, and making an income that averages out to the median over the course of his life is going to invest an average of $2,550 a year at an average of 7.98% return. Retiring at a higher age of (say) 68, he will have about 1.2 million dollars in that account. Moving it into a safer account with (say) a 5% guaranteed rate of return means that this retiree will be drawing $60,000 a year from the interest alone, and still have that 1.2 million (so long as they live on solely their interest) to pass on to their children upon their passing. What if the market tanks right as they are about to retire? well, the worst possible answer is it tanks right before they do, to the extent that it just did, which last occured about 80 years ago; so it's a pretty rare event. that tank took 40% off the market. that would put you at 720K, but the market doesn't and didn't stay there; dips are U-shaped. so let's say you withdraw 40K a year of principle during the two years in which the market recovers. now, over this last year of 2009 we continued the dive during the first part and began to rise during the second part; seeing a total 23% return over the course of the year from Jan 1 to Dec 31. So if you withdraw 40K from that 720 at the beginning of the year and then have the remaining 680 grow at 23% for a year you are now sitting on 853,000. do the same for year two, which we will say tapers off at a simple 20% increase (for simplicity); and your nest egg is now back up to $991,364. 5% of that would be an average income of that would be $49,568.20 annual income (all of this is adjusted for inflation); or, about 400 bucks shy of your usual annual income.

heck, if you made these private accounts exempt from capital gains tax; you could theoretically get the of the cap (IE; bring in alot more revenue) without seeing the negative effects such a move would typically had. you might possibly even get high-income earners pushing for this; how often does an entire class push to increase their taxes?

So the lesson here is be male (50K median only applies to males), not have kids (because that divides income), and expect inflation to never occur (because 50K won't be worth **** in 40 years).

Also, don't account for student loans, losing your job, having to change careers, injury or sickness, buying a house, having to help your kids pay for school, or anything else.
 
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So the lesson here is be male (50K median only applies to males)

:) actually the rising generation of women are making more than men.

not have kids (because that divides income)

that doesn't divide income at all, it simply requires spending some of it. not really sure what this point was supposed to be.

and expect inflation to never occur (because 50K won't be worth **** in 40 years).

the 7.98% figure actually accounts for inflation. and combined annualized growth (ie, if the market plunges 50% one year, it has to rise 100% the next year to break even, etc.).

but you want to run the figure for if your income rises (we'll say at 3%) to stay even with inflation? :) i'm fine with that. that leaves our standard worker retiring with $1,557,261.14 in the bank. 5% of which is $77,863.06 for a monthly retirement income of $6,488.59 in constant 2010 dollars.

Also, don't account for student loans, losing your job, having to change careers, injury or sickness, buying a house, having to help your kids pay for school, or anything else.

??? how does any of this - outside of time periods where you aren't contributing to an account, where the effect would be minimal and, as you noted, more than made up for by the rise in compensation you would experience over time - have anything to do with personalized SS accounts?
 
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The wealthy already pay plenty. Why do liberals hate success?
Why do they think it's ok to take people's money to grow the government and make more people dependent?
Why do liberals want to kill jobs?
We are not in an economy that can take any tax hikes at this time.

Conservative Republicans, the prosperous elite, and Tea Party activists who are fond of criticizing taxes, despite paying a proportionally lower rate than do working and middle income Americans. These are individuals who proffer that they are being chastised for showing ingenuity and creating wealth. They pontificate this even as they cut jobs, decrease benefits, and export the jobs of their employees.

I tend to be uncomfortable with what appears to be a single focus approach of the right wing approach of the Republican Party with respect to any one problem that arises. This is particularly true with the economy. Their solution for the problem is lower taxes and less spending without any rational discussion. It’s time for some common sense to come into the discussion. Yes, we need to lower spending. Yes, we need to be concerned about taxation. But to me, the bigger concern is the overall outcome.

We can’t shut our eyes to the situation that we are facing in the United States. Coming into the 21st century we inherited a huge deficit, two wars (which were never included in the budget), an economic collapse not seen since the 1030’s, a global economy which we had never fully embraced, an outdated infrastructure, an increasing energy crisis, the largest environmental catastrophe the in the US history, and the ramifications on our society of each. As the Federal Government has spread itself thinner the states have continued to try to fill the gaps. The result is severe cutbacks in education, medical services, human services, and other services.
The obvious solutions are decreased taxes stimulus spending, decreased expenditures, increased taxes, or combinations of the aforementioned. When I hear people lamenting the re-emergence of higher taxes, I am dismayed for several reasons. We are not raising taxes, but allowing them to return to what existed prior to the Bush tax cuts. During the Clinton Administration tax decreases were focused on middle-class Americans. And should we fail to forget the Clinton Administration had a surplus of $230 Billon in the year 2000.

At a time when we need to put our country on a sounder footing why diminish that which could add money to our federal budget. Oh, that’s right, to do so, would malign business that is the thrust of what makes our country grow. How dare we ask them to contribute more to the government when they already contribute such a large percentage? In fact, both the Heritage Foundation and the Chamber of Commerce reports that the United States has the second largest highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world. The problem is that this statistic is disingenuous. The reason is that the rate is an overview that does not include those exemptions that have been disallowed all the loopholes, shelters, and special tax breaks. Once these are considered these rates are among the lowest in the world as a share of GDP. And what about tax breaks for individuals? According to ABC News, tax records show that T. Boone Pickens the Hurricane Katrina relief legislation. To contribute a one-time tax break of $165 million to the Oklahoma State University Men’s Golf Team. Within the hour of receiving the money it was wired back to Pickens’ hedge fund and Pickens waived all fee’s and profits on the investment. This is just one example of how those at the top of the income brackets and corporations can be deceptive in the amount of taxes paid. Unfortunately, these loopholes are primarily available to those on the upper-end of the income brackets.

I’m tired of hearing the one note Republicans talk about how any spending is bad and how, for example, an extension of unemployment will incite a continuation of unemployment. According to the Joint Economic Committee calculations using statistics from the Department of Labor there are five unemployed workers for every job. Perhaps they should visit the real world where jobs have been destroyed and where people who have barely gotten by on two pay checks must survive on one salary. I’m tired of hearing people who don’t understand that working does not insure that some one will not have enough to buy insurance or pay the co-pay to see the doctor. Additionally, the economic results of not providing such insurance are estimated to be $24.2 billion in disability funds. Providing the extension, would provide a multiplier of $1, 60 for every dollar spent. Not only is it the right thing to do, it is the economically feasible government action.

We do have do make legitimate and intelligent cut within the budget using common
It should be realized however, that there will be times that an initial spending is required to reduce the long term expenditures. To do so is expedient and wise. Energy conservation is one area that is appropriate. Not only would it provide new growth in industry/jobs it would allow America to become less dependent on foreign oil. Additionally, we must be willing to adequately consider open debates on where such cuts should be made. At the present time, out states are struggling to meet the needs of local education, medical services, infrastructure, and other areas of need. In the need of fiscal restraint can we continue to turn our backs on those who are an integral part of our society? There comes a point that we have to take a stand to invest in our own people.

This nation has gotten to a point where argument and strife mean more than consensus and constructive solution. I remember the old days in Congress when they fought viscously and then found a way to work together. I pray for the time when we elect adults to Congress who go there to do a job. Not to noticed, not to be elected/re-elected, but to do the work of the Nation.
 
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The Republican hard stand on not rolling back tax cuts for those who earn over $250,000 is a game changer, makes them look like the party of the rich, but only if the Democrats take advantage of it with a media blitz.

ricksfolly

Yeah, that's why Obama and his pals are doing so well.

.
 
The Bush tax cuts havent' been rolled back yet, you would think that jobs were being created all over the place just based on that, according to republicans speaking on the issue, but that is IF you beleive that tax cuts for the rich generates jobs in any real numbers.

What may have worked once in the past may not work today. This is a different recession, and our economy has been undermined in a different way. People are STILL losing their homes and jobs are still scarce.

And all we hear from the right is that when they get power back, they are going to undo as much as possilbe what Obama has done. They might be right, but who can tell, as we hear almost NOTHING about any plans from their side.

I do think that a new GOP contract with America could excite the public, but only if the public dictates the terms....by referendum.
 
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