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How would this go over?

rjay

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We start by assuming that the debt ceiling is not under threat by House Republicans and that their plan is just to submit a bill raising the debt ceiling for the next 12 months.


We know that in the coming days/months negotiations will go on try to marry the Congress's proposed budget, the Senate's proposed budget and the Presidents desired budget into a budget that no one is in love with but that elected officials can live with.


The President takes a position 'I will veto any attempt to raise the debt ceiling, unless Congress agrees to my budget'


Would anyone in the country wonder if the President was off his rocker?

Is the Tea Party faction off of it's rocker?
 

Quag

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soot

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We know that in the coming days/months negotiations will go on try to marry the Congress's proposed budget, the Senate's proposed budget and the Presidents desired budget into a budget that no one is in love with but that elected officials can live with.

I would argue that we don't actually know that Congress is going to do that, and that given their recent track record of not passing budgets we'd be pretty foolish to assume it.

The President takes a position 'I will veto any attempt to raise the debt ceiling, unless Congress agrees to my budget'

Would anyone in the country wonder if the President was off his rocker?

Yes.

Is the Tea Party faction off of it's rocker?

Yes.

I don't think that one side being off its rocker precludes the other side also being off its rocker.

The President and Congress, collectively the U.S. government, is completely off its rocker as things stand.

I wouldn't surprise me at all of one or both parties derail the debt limit talks deliberately in order to crash the economy for the sole purpose of trying to blame it on the other side in order to score political points.



If you're not voting third party yet, you're not paying attention.
 

iguanaman

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We start by assuming that the debt ceiling is not under threat by House Republicans and that their plan is just to submit a bill raising the debt ceiling for the next 12 months.


We know that in the coming days/months negotiations will go on try to marry the Congress's proposed budget, the Senate's proposed budget and the Presidents desired budget into a budget that no one is in love with but that elected officials can live with.


The President takes a position 'I will veto any attempt to raise the debt ceiling, unless Congress agrees to my budget'


Would anyone in the country wonder if the President was off his rocker?

Is the Tea Party faction off of it's rocker?

The debt ceiling is not a hostage since you can't default. There will be no ultimatums based on not raising it.
Any "deal" will be based on normal give and take with no one will get all they want. That's the way our Govt. works.
The last deal included half of the cuts coming from Defense so I expect a similar deal this time.
There's still plenty of room for defense cuts don't you think?
 

rjay

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The debt ceiling is not a hostage since you can't default. There will be no ultimatums based on not raising it.
Any "deal" will be based on normal give and take with no one will get all they want. That's the way our Govt. works.
The last deal included half of the cuts coming from Defense so I expect a similar deal this time.
There's still plenty of room for defense cuts don't you think?

Oh.

So the debt ceiling hasn't and will not be used for negotiation purposes. Got it.

I thought I heard the Speaker say something about raising the limit temporarily (6 weeks) in exchange for passing a few budget items related to funding some areas effected by the shutdown. The areas in which Republicans (and Democrats too I suspect) are feeling the heat.
 

iguanaman

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Oh.

So the debt ceiling hasn't and will not be used for negotiation purposes. Got it.

I thought I heard the Speaker say something about raising the limit temporarily (6 weeks) in exchange for passing a few budget items related to funding some areas effected by the shutdown. The areas in which Republicans (and Democrats too I suspect) are feeling the heat.

You didn't get the memo from the Koch Bros. huh? They are calling the shots and they say no default.
 

rjay

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You didn't get the memo from the Koch Bros. huh? They are calling the shots and they say no default.

I did get that memo. It made me laugh too. I noticed that the memo did not mention any of the entities that are funded by those same brothers.
 

iguanaman

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I did get that memo. It made me laugh too. I noticed that the memo did not mention any of the entities that are funded by those same brothers.

I agree it was pretty funny. I reminded me of Dr. Frankenstein and his monster.
 

Carjosse

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How about getting rid of it entirely?
 

jonny5

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We start by assuming that the debt ceiling is not under threat by House Republicans and that their plan is just to submit a bill raising the debt ceiling for the next 12 months.


We know that in the coming days/months negotiations will go on try to marry the Congress's proposed budget, the Senate's proposed budget and the Presidents desired budget into a budget that no one is in love with but that elected officials can live with.


The President takes a position 'I will veto any attempt to raise the debt ceiling, unless Congress agrees to my budget'


Would anyone in the country wonder if the President was off his rocker?

Is the Tea Party faction off of it's rocker?

The Tea Party faction is small. They dont have the equivelant of a veto. Theres about 20 House members, and 5 Senators who claim to be Tea Party, but dont neccesarily vote with them.
 

rjay

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The Tea Party faction is small. They dont have the equivelant of a veto. Theres about 20 House members, and 5 Senators who claim to be Tea Party, but dont neccesarily vote with them.

The point isn't the veto, The point is that no one should be threatening to hurt the country, as a whole, trying to make the entire government bend to your will. If you want your views to be the way of the land, make a good enough argument that you can convince the majority of voters. Then win majorities in the house and the senate and have a President elected that espouses those same views.

Anything less than that means negotiation and compromise on budget negotiations. It does not mean you tank the economy and hurt all of your fellow countryman if you do not get your way.

Tea Party representitives come to Washington with the attitude that of all the people in the U.S., the only ones who count are their own electorate.

The way government functions is by fighting for your electorate, and getting whatever budgetary and legislative concessions you can.
In order to get those concessions you have to allow others to get concessions too.

It would be crazy if the President did it - it is crazy that the Tea Party is trying to do it.

When budget negotiations happen, all sides will have to give a little on some things so that they get some of what they want. Will the Tea Party allow the Republican party to negotiate and to comprimise?

It certainly does not look like it.
 

rjay

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How about lowering it?

Lowering the debt ceiling? You can do that after you have a few years of surplus budgets.
There is a long way to go before that happens.
 

Carjosse

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How about lowering it?

No that is the worst idea ever, the debt ceiling serves no purpose other than being a political tool:

This video explains what it is actually is.
 

jonny5

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The point isn't the veto, The point is that no one should be threatening to hurt the country, as a whole, trying to make the entire government bend to your will. If you want your views to be the way of the land, make a good enough argument that you can convince the majority of voters. Then win majorities in the house and the senate and have a President elected that espouses those same views.

Anything less than that means negotiation and compromise on budget negotiations. It does not mean you tank the economy and hurt all of your fellow countryman if you do not get your way.

Tea Party representitives come to Washington with the attitude that of all the people in the U.S., the only ones who count are their own electorate.

The way government functions is by fighting for your electorate, and getting whatever budgetary and legislative concessions you can.
In order to get those concessions you have to allow others to get concessions too.

It would be crazy if the President did it - it is crazy that the Tea Party is trying to do it.

When budget negotiations happen, all sides will have to give a little on some things so that they get some of what they want. Will the Tea Party allow the Republican party to negotiate and to comprimise?

It certainly does not look like it.

No, the point is youre blaming the Tea Party. It doesnt matter what they allow of dont allow. They dont have the power to do anything but talk.
 

jonny5

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No that is the worst idea ever, the debt ceiling serves no purpose other than being a political tool:

This video explains what it is actually is.

Exactly, a politicial tool with the purpose of making sure the govt doesnt borrow too much. I agree with Obama

“Mr. President, I rise today to talk about America’s debt problem. The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills.”“It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our government’s reckless fiscal policies. Over the past five years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion. That is ‘‘trillion’’ with a ‘‘T.’’ That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers.”
 

Carjosse

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Exactly, a politicial tool with the purpose of making sure the govt doesnt borrow too much. I agree with Obama

No, did you watch he video? It isn't about limiting how much government spends it is about debts already incurred.
 

jonny5

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No, did you watch he video? It isn't about limiting how much government spends it is about debts already incurred.

No, im not going to. Im interested in your opinion, not someone elses. And it obviously IS about limiting spending, or at least limiting borrowing. As you say its a tool, and the way in which the tool is used is determined by those who use it. Congress has the power to borrow money, and they get to decide how much, and when its enough. As the congressional research service points out

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL31967.pdf

the debt limit expresses a national devotion to the idea of thrift and to economical management of the fiscal affairs of the government. You might have a point if the use of borrowing was for valid purposes, emergencies, financial management, debt service. But its not. The only reason they want the debt limit raised is to continue spending more than they have, on mostly unessential and wastful programs. Democrats raised spending in 2008-2009 by 25% at a time when revenue was declining, which directly lead to massive borrowing. And that spending wasnt even on emergency bailout measures or even emergency welfare. It was spread out through the entire govt. Billions on everything from energy to transportation to science, agriculture, general govt, even over 100bn on Defense.

Thats why we need a debt limit, as a political tool.
 

Carjosse

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No, im not going to. Im interested in your opinion, not someone elses. And it obviously IS about limiting spending, or at least limiting borrowing. As you say its a tool, and the way in which the tool is used is determined by those who use it. Congress has the power to borrow money, and they get to decide how much, and when its enough. As the congressional research service points out

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL31967.pdf

the debt limit expresses a national devotion to the idea of thrift and to economical management of the fiscal affairs of the government. You might have a point if the use of borrowing was for valid purposes, emergencies, financial management, debt service. But its not. The only reason they want the debt limit raised is to continue spending more than they have, on mostly unessential and wastful programs. Democrats raised spending in 2008-2009 by 25% at a time when revenue was declining, which directly lead to massive borrowing. And that spending wasnt even on emergency bailout measures or even emergency welfare. It was spread out through the entire govt. Billions on everything from energy to transportation to science, agriculture, general govt, even over 100bn on Defense.

Thats why we need a debt limit, as a political tool.

That isn't his opinion it's fact he explains what it actually is. It's educational not opinion. It has nothing to do with liming spending.
 
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Dittohead not!

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We start by assuming that the debt ceiling is not under threat by House Republicans and that their plan is just to submit a bill raising the debt ceiling for the next 12 months.

That's a pretty safe assumption, but if they don't start ranting about the debt ceiling now, they'll lose a great opportunity for leaping, ranting, hooting, and pointing fingers at the Democrats. No one wants that to happen, except, perhaps, for the voters.


We know that in the coming days/months negotiations will go on try to marry the Congress's proposed budget, the Senate's proposed budget and the Presidents desired budget into a budget that no one is in love with but that elected officials can live with.

which is a likely outcome of negotiations, after all of the hooting, ranting, and pointing of fingers.

The President takes a position 'I will veto any attempt to raise the debt ceiling, unless Congress agrees to my budget'


Would anyone in the country wonder if the President was off his rocker?

Only the committed partisan Democrats would wonder. The rest of us would know that he was.

Is the Tea Party faction off of it's rocker?

Yes, absolutely.
 

Carjosse

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If you have an argument to make, make it.

The debt limit does not limit spending it limits debts already incurred which something no other country has because it is stupid idea. It doesn't stop congress form making a budget with multi-trillion dollar deficits or contorting spending. Like the video points out it it is terrifying for everyone watching so please get rid of it.
 

rjay

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That's a pretty safe assumption, but if they don't start ranting about the debt ceiling now, they'll lose a great opportunity for leaping, ranting, hooting, and pointing fingers at the Democrats. No one wants that to happen, except, perhaps, for the voters.


which is a likely outcome of negotiations, after all of the hooting, ranting, and pointing of fingers.



Only the committed partisan Democrats would wonder. The rest of us would know that he was.



Yes, absolutely.

Thanks Dittohead - I needed a chuckle
 
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