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How to proof US citizenship?

marnix

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I am reading about both sides of the argument on the issue if voters should be legally required to show an ID before being able to vote for elections.

One of the arguments against requiring voters to show an ID is "it excludes legitimate voters who do not have documentary proof of citizenship, such as elderly people, students living away from home, or married people who adopt the surname of their spouses".

But if you are unable to proof your citizenship, yet are a citizen, how can you then fight an accusation brought against you that you should be deported because you are an illegal alien? You are a citizen, so you have no documents proofing you are a legal immigrant, because you are a citizen, so obviously you have no green card, etc. You also can not proof you are a citizen apparently (the quote above says some people just can't proof it). Then if you can not proof you are a citizen and you can not proof you are a legal immigrant, then how can you defend yourself against the accusation you are an illegal alien and should be deported?

If you are a citizen and can't proof it, shouldn't you be worried? Any person having a grudge against you can have you deported by lying to the government by telling them the lie that you are an illegal alien. He can put you in serious trouble because you can not proof otherwise.
 

Velvet Elvis

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I am reading about both sides of the argument on the issue if voters should be legally required to show an ID before being able to vote for elections.

One of the arguments against requiring voters to show an ID is "it excludes legitimate voters who do not have documentary proof of citizenship, such as elderly people, students living away from home, or married people who adopt the surname of their spouses".

But if you are unable to proof your citizenship, yet are a citizen, how can you then fight an accusation brought against you that you should be deported because you are an illegal alien? You are a citizen, so you have no documents proofing you are a legal immigrant, because you are a citizen, so obviously you have no green card, etc. You also can not proof you are a citizen apparently (the quote above says some people just can't proof it). Then if you can not proof you are a citizen and you can not proof you are a legal immigrant, then how can you defend yourself against the accusation you are an illegal alien and should be deported?

If you are a citizen and can't proof it, shouldn't you be worried? Any person having a grudge against you can have you deported by lying to the government by telling them the lie that you are an illegal alien. He can put you in serious trouble because you can not proof otherwise.

Social Security card? Driver's license? Visa? Green card? Passport? Even my 98 year old grandmother still has her driver's license.

The question isn't whether they should be worried. The question should be "why can't you prove your citizenship?" If you want the privilege to vote, have some freakin' responsibility with your citizenship documentation. Nobody seems to whine when they're carded for liquor sales. Nobody seems to whine about proving they're over 18 at the movie theaters. Nobody seems to whine when they need to provide the documentation for renewing their driver's license or registration.

Oh, but ask for proof of citizenship one day out of four years, and it's like cutting off their left arm with a rusty butter knife.
 

brothern

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If you are a citizen and can't proof it, shouldn't you be worried? Any person having a grudge against you can have you deported by lying to the government by telling them the lie that you are an illegal alien. He can put you in serious trouble because you can not proof otherwise.

Generally I believe the issue is photo IDs. So imagine elderly black woman who lives in Chicago:

Social Security card? Driver's license? Visa? Green card? Passport? Even my 98 year old grandmother still has her driver's license.

- Social Security : Not a photo ID.
- Driver's License : Many people don't drive in the city. Especially the elderly.
- Visa / Green Card : These documents prove that you are not a citizen. You wouldn't be able to vote.
- Passport : Only something like 30% of Americans have one.

So elderly, urban black woman is SOL.
 

marnix

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Social Security card? Driver's license? Visa? Green card? Passport? Even my 98 year old grandmother still has her driver's license.

Drivers license is no proof of citizenship since also legal immigrants in some states can get a drivers license. Social security numbers are also issued to legal immigrants who work in the USA and pay taxes there. So a social security card is also no proof of US citizenship. Green card is also no proof of citizenship. A passport is however. A birth certificate is also proof. But since the document you need in order to be able to receive a passport is the birth certificate, we only have the birth certificate (and in case of naturalization the naturalization papers) as proof of citizenship.

I wonder how in say 1820 citizens proofed it. There were no birth ceritificates then. Could you as a UK citizen in the year 1820, being on holiday in the USA, show up at a voting booth and vote? If not, why not? Who could proof you weren't a citizen?
 

Exquisitor

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Social Security card? Driver's license? Visa? Green card? Passport? Even my 98 year old grandmother still has her driver's license.

How about we start issuing voter ID, or my favorite: (verifiable) gun purchasing license. Then you have three photo IDs.

You can always get a state ID instead of a drivers license and you should be able to get a non-gun purchaser ID.

A gun safety course should be required to graduate High School and get the license.
 
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Ray410

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The test for proving citizenship to vote in English speaking countries should be to conjugate the verb "prove."
 

Socrates1

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I am reading about both sides of the argument on the issue if voters should be legally required to show an ID before being able to vote for elections.

One of the arguments against requiring voters to show an ID is "it excludes legitimate voters who do not have documentary proof of citizenship, such as elderly people, students living away from home, or married people who adopt the surname of their spouses".

But if you are unable to proof your citizenship, yet are a citizen, how can you then fight an accusation brought against you that you should be deported because you are an illegal alien? You are a citizen, so you have no documents proofing you are a legal immigrant, because you are a citizen, so obviously you have no green card, etc. You also can not proof you are a citizen apparently (the quote above says some people just can't proof it). Then if you can not proof you are a citizen and you can not proof you are a legal immigrant, then how can you defend yourself against the accusation you are an illegal alien and should be deported?

If you are a citizen and can't proof it, shouldn't you be worried? Any person having a grudge against you can have you deported by lying to the government by telling them the lie that you are an illegal alien. He can put you in serious trouble because you can not proof otherwise.

Having to hire a translator would be your first clue ! :lamo
 

Mithrae

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Are you familiar with use of the word "prove" in the English language?

It has to be acknowledged that your own grammar is impeccable. I love this one:
"...to support someone whom they believe will help them fulfill their difficult assigned mission more effectively than those whom they have served under in the past."

Nevertheless, it might be possible to be a little less of an ass in pointing these things out ;)
 

Thoreau72

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With the ease of hacking voting machines having been demonstrated many times including 60 Minutes, why are they ignoring that whilst chasing poor black people away from the voting booth?
 

Ray410

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It has to be acknowledged that your own grammar is impeccable. I love this one:
"...to support someone whom they believe will help them fulfill their difficult assigned mission more effectively than those whom they have served under in the past."

Nevertheless, it might be possible to be a little less of an ass in pointing these things out ;)

Don't start lying now, that quote isn't from me. I wouldn't think someone like you would know much about being less of an ass. If you're also having trouble with English grammer, I can see the reason for your hot eyed response.
 
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Grand Mal

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I am reading about both sides of the argument on the issue if voters should be legally required to show an ID before being able to vote for elections.

One of the arguments against requiring voters to show an ID is "it excludes legitimate voters who do not have documentary proof of citizenship, such as elderly people, students living away from home, or married people who adopt the surname of their spouses".

But if you are unable to proof your citizenship, yet are a citizen, how can you then fight an accusation brought against you that you should be deported because you are an illegal alien? You are a citizen, so you have no documents proofing you are a legal immigrant, because you are a citizen, so obviously you have no green card, etc. You also can not proof you are a citizen apparently (the quote above says some people just can't proof it). Then if you can not proof you are a citizen and you can not proof you are a legal immigrant, then how can you defend yourself against the accusation you are an illegal alien and should be deported?

If you are a citizen and can't proof it, shouldn't you be worried? Any person having a grudge against you can have you deported by lying to the government by telling them the lie that you are an illegal alien. He can put you in serious trouble because you can not proof otherwise.

Deported to where? The island of lost boys?
 

Mithrae

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Don't start lying now, that quote isn't from me. I wouldn't think someone like you would know much about being less of an ass. If you're also having trouble with English grammer, I can see the reason for your hot eyed response.

Wow. Well you've certainly lost any pretense of an intellectual high ground which you might have had. It was your second most recent post on the forum, for crying out loud, and you don't even know it!

...to support someone whom they believe will help them fulfill their difficult assigned mission more effectively than those whom they have served under in the past.
 

Fearandloathing

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Social Security card? Driver's license? Visa? Green card? Passport? Even my 98 year old grandmother still has her driver's license.

The question isn't whether they should be worried. The question should be "why can't you prove your citizenship?" If you want the privilege to vote, have some freakin' responsibility with your citizenship documentation. Nobody seems to whine when they're carded for liquor sales. Nobody seems to whine about proving they're over 18 at the movie theaters. Nobody seems to whine when they need to provide the documentation for renewing their driver's license or registration.

Oh, but ask for proof of citizenship one day out of four years, and it's like cutting off their left arm with a rusty butter knife.



Canada requires photo I.D., in cases where none is available the person can be "vouched for" as known to them etc. That vote, however is set aside and not counted unless the vote is so close an automatic recount kicks in.
 

Ray410

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Wow. Well you've certainly lost any pretense of an intellectual high ground which you might have had. It was your second most recent post on the forum, for crying out loud, and you don't even know it!

Nice try, but providing the link will allow a review of full context, which you slyly attempted to leave out. Always important to be honest in reposts, amigo.
 

Fearandloathing

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I am reading about both sides of the argument on the issue if voters should be legally required to show an ID before being able to vote for elections.

One of the arguments against requiring voters to show an ID is "it excludes legitimate voters who do not have documentary proof of citizenship, such as elderly people, students living away from home, or married people who adopt the surname of their spouses".

But if you are unable to proof your citizenship, yet are a citizen, how can you then fight an accusation brought against you that you should be deported because you are an illegal alien? You are a citizen, so you have no documents proofing you are a legal immigrant, because you are a citizen, so obviously you have no green card, etc. You also can not proof you are a citizen apparently (the quote above says some people just can't proof it). Then if you can not proof you are a citizen and you can not proof you are a legal immigrant, then how can you defend yourself against the accusation you are an illegal alien and should be deported?

If you are a citizen and can't proof it, shouldn't you be worried? Any person having a grudge against you can have you deported by lying to the government by telling them the lie that you are an illegal alien. He can put you in serious trouble because you can not proof otherwise.


Rather over the top in the speculation, but you have created a field full of straw men. Since when is it automatic that someone who, on the spot cannot verify their citizenship, and even if after seeking birth records etc., you kind of have to know where the alien came from. You cannot create a stateless person, no nation would recognize it and you would have no international support sending him anywhere.

The voting ID thing is easily solved as are most of the US problems, but I think you'd rather argue about it more than solve it.
 

Μολὼν λαβέ

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Generally I believe the issue is photo IDs. So imagine elderly black woman who lives in Chicago:



- Social Security : Not a photo ID.
- Driver's License : Many people don't drive in the city. Especially the elderly.
- Visa / Green Card : These documents prove that you are not a citizen. You wouldn't be able to vote.
- Passport : Only something like 30% of Americans have one.

So elderly, urban black woman is SOL.

Good point; get a valid picture ID before you are too old to obtain one, especially if you want to vote.

Identification Cards in Illinois

How to get a state ID card:

Visit an Illinois Driver Services office.
Provide proof of your signature, birth date, SSN, and residency.
Pay the $10 (Under 18) or $20 (18 and up) identification card fee.
For more information on other types of ID cards and how to renew/replace an ID, please read on



Apply for a New Illinois Identification Card | DMV.org
 

marnix

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Since when is it automatic that someone who, on the spot cannot verify their citizenship, and even if after seeking birth records etc., you kind of have to know where the alien came from. You cannot create a stateless person, no nation would recognize it and you would have no international support sending him anywhere.

Ok, so if an illegal immigrant destroys all documentation from his birth country, the USA can never prove he is an illegal immigrant, so he can remain in the USA forever? Because you say even if you can not prove citizenship, you cant be deported if the government doesn't know where you really come from. So it is very easy to remain forever in the USA?
 
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JoeTrumps

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If you are between 18 and 50 and don't have a photo ID then you have so many problems you shouldn't have TIME to vote.
 

Velvet Elvis

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How about we start issuing voter ID, or my favorite: (verifiable) gun purchasing license. Then you have three photo IDs.
I don't have a problem with a voter ID card. I don't have a problem with a driver's license that has a "voter" endorsement on it. The point is to have verifiable ID to prove who you are, and whether you're (legally) able to vote. One poster gave the lame excuse of a "old black woman in Chicago." Why is it acceptable to believe she can go out and vote, but unacceptable for her to go out and get registered with a driver's license/state ID? How's she going to go vote, if she's somehow unable to leave her house for a state ID?

It's very simple...no one is denying legal citizens the privilege to vote ("privilege," because there's no "right"). We want to deny those who shouldn't vote.
 

Mithrae

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It's very simple...no one is denying legal citizens the privilege to vote ("privilege," because there's no "right"). We want to deny those who shouldn't vote.

You don't think people have a right to their say in how they are governed?

You know what the word is for government without consent, don't you?
 

Socrates1

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I am reading about both sides of the argument on the issue if voters should be legally required to show an ID before being able to vote for elections.

One of the arguments against requiring voters to show an ID is "it excludes legitimate voters who do not have documentary proof of citizenship, such as elderly people, students living away from home, or married people who adopt the surname of their spouses".

But if you are unable to proof your citizenship, yet are a citizen, how can you then fight an accusation brought against you that you should be deported because you are an illegal alien? You are a citizen, so you have no documents proofing you are a legal immigrant, because you are a citizen, so obviously you have no green card, etc. You also can not proof you are a citizen apparently (the quote above says some people just can't proof it). Then if you can not proof you are a citizen and you can not proof you are a legal immigrant, then how can you defend yourself against the accusation you are an illegal alien and should be deported?

If you are a citizen and can't proof it, shouldn't you be worried? Any person having a grudge against you can have you deported by lying to the government by telling them the lie that you are an illegal alien. He can put you in serious trouble because you can not proof otherwise.

What a joke , where have you seen illegals being deported ? When they are released from prison they still don't get deported they have a stand down order ! :shock: We have hundreds of sanctuary Cities ALL over the USA , get real ! :roll:
 

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Generally I believe the issue is photo IDs. So imagine elderly black woman who lives in Chicago:



- Social Security : Not a photo ID.
- Driver's License : Many people don't drive in the city. Especially the elderly.
- Visa / Green Card : These documents prove that you are not a citizen. You wouldn't be able to vote.
- Passport : Only something like 30% of Americans have one.

So elderly, urban black woman is SOL.

Which of course is solved by Illinois very own state issued ID card. And bull**** that the elderly urban black woman doesn't have picture ID.
 

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You don't think people have a right to their say in how they are governed?

You know what the word is for government without consent, don't you?

Yeah, and we all think you should have a photo ID.
 

Velvet Elvis

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You don't think people have a right to their say in how they are governed?
It's a topic that has much debate, but no...I do not believe there is an inherent "right" to vote. There's a privilege. There's laws governing the fairness of voting from one race/religion/gender to another. But an actual "right" to vote? Sorry...it's not there.

You know what the word is for government without consent, don't you?
Modern Democrats?
 
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