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How The Second Amendment Was Reinterpreted To Protect Individual Rights....Less Than 50 Years Ago

RIP U.S. Democracy

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The vast majority of Republicans aren't elected officials.
If you have a point, then spit it out. This is more gibberish.

Show me something from the 1970s where Republicans and Democrats differed significantly on gun control during Nixon's and Ford's time in office. Until you do that, you have lost this debate.

So both parties were similar in their split views?
Yep.
 

Rucker61

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If you have a point, then spit it out. This is more gibberish.

Show me something from the 1970s where Republicans and Democrats differed significantly on gun control during Nixon's and Ford's time in office. Until you do that, you have lost this debate.
"Q: Twice you have been the intended victim of would-be assassins using handguns, yet you remain a steadfast opponent of substantive handgun control. Why?
FORD: The record of gun control, whether it's in one city or another or in some States does not show that the registration of a gun, handgun, or the registration of the gun owner has in any way whatsoever decreased the crime rate or the use of that gun in the committing of a crime. The record just doesn't prove that such legislation or action by a local city council is effective. What we have to do--and this is the crux of the matter--is to make it very difficult for a person who uses a gun in the commission of a crime to stay out of jail. I don't believe in the registration of handguns or the registration of the handgun owner. That has not proven to be effective. And, therefore, the better way is to go after the criminal, the individual who commits a crime in the possession of a gun and uses that gun for a part of his criminal activity."

"I had always opposed federal registration of guns or the licensing of gun owners, and as President, I hadn't changed my views. At the same time, I recognized that handguns had played a key role in the increase of violent crime. Not all handguns-just those that hadn't been designed for sporting purposes. I asked Congress to ban the manufacture and sale of these "Saturday night specials.""

HCI wanted to ban all handguns.

"A major threat to every American's person and property is the criminal carrying a handgun. The way to cut down on the criminal use of guns is not to take guns away from the law-abiding citizen, but to impose mandatory sentences for crimes in which a gun is used, make it harder to obtain cheap guns for criminal purposes, and concentrate gun control enforcement in high crime areas.
My budget recommends 500 additional Federal agents in the 11 largest metropolitan high-crime areas to help local authorities stop criminals from selling and using handguns"

Dang, it's not just the gun it's the criminals, too.

 

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"Q: Twice you have been the intended victim of would-be assassins using handguns, yet you remain a steadfast opponent of substantive handgun control. Why?
FORD: The record of gun control, whether it's in one city or another or in some States does not show that the registration of a gun, handgun, or the registration of the gun owner has in any way whatsoever decreased the crime rate or the use of that gun in the committing of a crime. The record just doesn't prove that such legislation or action by a local city council is effective. What we have to do--and this is the crux of the matter--is to make it very difficult for a person who uses a gun in the commission of a crime to stay out of jail. I don't believe in the registration of handguns or the registration of the handgun owner. That has not proven to be effective. And, therefore, the better way is to go after the criminal, the individual who commits a crime in the possession of a gun and uses that gun for a part of his criminal activity."

"I had always opposed federal registration of guns or the licensing of gun owners, and as President, I hadn't changed my views. At the same time, I recognized that handguns had played a key role in the increase of violent crime. Not all handguns-just those that hadn't been designed for sporting purposes. I asked Congress to ban the manufacture and sale of these "Saturday night specials.""

HCI wanted to ban all handguns.

"A major threat to every American's person and property is the criminal carrying a handgun. The way to cut down on the criminal use of guns is not to take guns away from the law-abiding citizen, but to impose mandatory sentences for crimes in which a gun is used, make it harder to obtain cheap guns for criminal purposes, and concentrate gun control enforcement in high crime areas.
My budget recommends 500 additional Federal agents in the 11 largest metropolitan high-crime areas to help local authorities stop criminals from selling and using handguns"

Dang, it's not just the gun it's the criminals, too.


Did you miss this? -- I asked Congress to ban the manufacture and sale of these "Saturday night specials.""

If Obama or Biden had said something like this, then your head would have exploded.

Again, you have no point.
 

Rucker61

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Did you miss this? -- I asked Congress to ban the manufacture and sale of these "Saturday night specials.""
You mean the type of firearm most used in crime and with no sporting purpose?
If Obama or Biden had said something like this, then your head would have exploded.
No, my head exploded when Biden said to fire both barrels of a shotgun through the front door and that 9mm bullets will blow your lungs out of your body.
Again, you have no point.
You have no point.
 

RF667799

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Did you miss this? -- I asked Congress to ban the manufacture and sale of these "Saturday night specials.""

If Obama or Biden had said something like this, then your head would have exploded.

Again, you have no point.

Myself, I would note it as a law intended to infringe the civil rights of the less well off citizens...and quite possibly racist in its intent.

Would Obama or Biden propose such a law?
 

natman

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None of this refutes my point. There are all kinds of obscure Supreme Court cases that nobody remembers. In fact, the Second Amendment has been rarely addressed by the Supreme Court, compared to many other sections of the Constitution.

IHere's the bottom line -- Nobody cared about the Second Amendment for the first 200 years of this country's history. It was one of the least mentioned rights in the Bill of Rights for the first 200 years of this country's history. None of the old-timers on this board were talking about the freaking Second Amendment in the 1960s and early 1970s.

All of the gun-obsessed zealots have been victims of NRA and Repug propaganda for the past 45 years. Sad, but true.

There are all kinds of Supreme Court cases you desperately want to ignore, merely because they don't support your ridiculous premise. Cruickshank clearly shows you are wrong; you don't get to blow it off by calling it "obsucure". The Second Amendment has rarely been addressed by the Supreme Court because for almost two centuries there was little question what it meant. It's true that the NRA has been more active in the last 50 years, but that was only in response to NEW anti-gun sentiment. Before that there was little need.

Democratic President John F. Kennedy was a Life Member of the NRA. Here are some of his quotes on the Second Amendment:

By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia,' the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms,' our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason I believe the Second Amendment will always be important.
Know Your Lawmakers, Guns Magazine, April 1960, p. 4

In my own native state of Massachusetts, the battle for American freedom was begun by the thousands of farmers and tradesmen who made up the Minute Men -- citizens who were ready to defend their liberty at a moment's notice. Today we need a nation of minute men; citizens who are not only prepared to take up arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as a basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. The cause of liberty, the cause of American, cannot succeed with any lesser effort.
 

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I really don't GS WHEN it happened. It happened.
In other words, you believed the NRA hysteria about the 2nd Amendment before the Democrats even did anything about gun control.

You've acknowledged that you're a victim of NRA propaganda.
 

RIP U.S. Democracy

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There are all kinds of Supreme Court cases you desperately want to ignore, merely because they don't support your ridiculous premise.
The problem is you don't understand my premise. You can't point to any difference between the Republicans and Democrats when it comes to gun control in the 1960s and 1970s. The Democrats did absolutely nothing when it comes to gun control in the 1970s, so there was no reason for the NRA to make the Democrats their boogeyman.

Therefore, the whole NRA 2nd Amendment propaganda movement that started in the late 1970s and early 1980s was all bullshit from the beginning for small-minded unsophisticated Republican goobers.
 

TurtleDude

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SCOTUS was.


In US v Cruikshank,1876, SCOTUS recognized that "The right there specified is that of "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence." The decision recognized the right of two former slaves to keep a bear arms, two men who were not in the militia, would not have been allowed to be in the militia, in a state where the militia had been disbanded.

Without the recognition of an individual right to keep and bear arms, Miller, whose entire appeal was based upon that right, would have no standing to have his case reviewed by SCOTUS.

There have been six major pieces of gun control legislation passed by Congress, all prior to Heller: NFA 1934, Gun Control Act of 1968, Firearm Owners Protection Act (including the Hughes Amendment) of 1986, the Brady Act, the Assault Weapons Ban and the Lautenburg Amendment.


The word militia isn't mentioned a single time in any of them. The words "individual", "person" and "citizen" are repeated hundreds of times.


In 1982 the Senate published a bipartisan report entitled "the right to keep and bear arms report" that affirmed an individual rights viewpoint.

In 1990 in US v Verdugo-Urquidez SCOTUS affirmed: "...it suggests that "the people" protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community."

The same state legislatures who ratified the 2nd Amendment ratified state constitutions affirming an individual right. Why do you keep ignoring this?
Nice schooling there. It has always been an individual right-even the pathetically eager to please FDR Miller court had to essentially agree to that
 

TurtleDude

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How many efforts were there between 1968 and 1986 to pass "common sense" laws like "ban all handguns"?
the reason why Josh Sugarman-thrown out of the Brady gang for being too extreme (too honest about the desire to ban all guns) told the media to start pretending semi auto rifles were the same as machine guns. He knew that the 20 year effort of the democrats to ban handguns was a losing crusade and they had to attack gun ownership from another angle
 

TurtleDude

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In July 1976, Shields estimated that it would take seven to ten years for NCCH to reach the goal of "total control of handguns in the United States." He said: "The first problem is to slow down the increasing number of handguns being produced and sold in this country. The second is to get handguns registered. And the final problem is to make the possession of all handguns and all handgun ammunition – except for the military, policemen, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs, and licensed gun collectors – totally illegal.


I watched Shields get immolated by a black conservative at the Yale Political Union about 43 years ago. I was amazing. Shields became a bannerrhoid when the racist black Zebra killer murdered Shields son. The black student noted that since a black male killed Shields' son why wasn't Shields demanding all young black males be locked up or at least closely monitored by law enforcement. Shields said THAT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL and the student said-YEAH IT IS but unlike the other bit of unconstitutional bullshit (that you want) this one will actually prevent some crimes. The entire political union was LOL for minutes after that
 

TurtleDude

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Where did I say I supported him? I'm saying there is no space between the Republicans and Democrats on this gun control issue in the 1970s.

You're on the ropes, reeling badly.
really-his scholarly incineration of your idiotic posts has been delicious. You were relegated to trying to dismiss some seminal supreme court cases as "obscure" because you were unaware (or didn't understand them). It is your stupid hysterical posts that have been completely schooled on this thread
 

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As I've stated repeatedly, nobody was talking about the Second Amendment being an unequivocal right to own guns until the late 1970s. So for the first 200 years of this country's history, no Republicans (or Democrats) were talking this stupid shit.

This is nothing but propaganda cooked-up by the NRA less than 50 years ago and it has brainwashed unsophisticated Republican goobers ever since, as this article explains. --





And here is why all of the Republican Constitution "Originalist scholars" are so full of shit as well. --





Sorry, but you are wrong. Research the judicial rulings as to the above.
 

trixare4kids

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Until Dems went off the cliff.

They didn't. You've been lied to.

Total nonsense. Do you know greater percentages of Republicans voted for Voting Rights Act AND Civil Rights Act then Dems? Dems are the party of racism, dude.

And in modern times, the party of the race card!
 

trixare4kids

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How long have we been hearing "assault weapons" mantras from the Dems? Are you paying attention?

Guess again; African Americans are drifting rightward.

So are Hispanics. I am so happy to see this trending in my lifetime as I am sure that you are as well.
 

Bullseye

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So are Hispanics. I am so happy to see this trending in my lifetime as I am sure that you are as well.
The dems let the loonies take over control; they gave up their "party of the people" platform and adopted wokism and victim politics.
 

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The dems let the loonies take over control; they gave up their "party of the people" platform and adopted wokism and victim politics.

As you know and because you've known me almost forever, since 2008, ;), it was the primary reason I say, my party the Democrats, left me behind.
 

Bullseye

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As you know and because you've known me almost forever, since 2008, ;), it was the primary reason I say, my party the Democrats, left me behind.
Wow, has it been that long? :eek: Yeah, my story is much the same.
 

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The problem is you don't understand my premise.
Your premise is quite simple. You want to turn history upside down and reverse cause and effect. Which you yourself illustrate in your next line:

You can't point to any difference between the Republicans and Democrats when it comes to gun control in the 1960s and 1970s. The Democrats did absolutely nothing when it comes to gun control in the 1970s, so there was no reason for the NRA to make the Democrats their boogeyman.
It's true that the NRA didn't get involved in politics during the 60s and early 70s. There was no need. There were few gun control laws. You could buy a gun at Sears, Montgomery Wards or J.C. Penney. You could walk in, pay for your purchase and walk out with a guna and ammo. Yet random shootings were virtually unheard of. Nobody questioned that the Second Amendment referred to an individual right, just like the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Their involvement in politics was in response to Democratic gun control efforts in the late 70s.
 

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Sorry, but you are wrong. Research the judicial rulings as to the above.

I cited Constitutional legal scholars who know more a lot more than you do.

You cited...yourself. Therefore, you lose.
 

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really-his scholarly incineration of your idiotic posts has been delicious. You were relegated to trying to dismiss some seminal supreme court cases as "obscure" because you were unaware (or didn't understand them). It is your stupid hysterical posts that have been completely schooled on this thread

Ding Dong. The wicked witch is dead. A bright new day on this forum.
 

RIP U.S. Democracy

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Your premise is quite simple. You want to turn history upside down and reverse cause and effect. Which you yourself illustrate in your next line:


It's true that the NRA didn't get involved in politics during the 60s and early 70s. There was no need. There were few gun control laws. You could buy a gun at Sears, Montgomery Wards or J.C. Penney. You could walk in, pay for your purchase and walk out with a guna and ammo. Yet random shootings were virtually unheard of. Nobody questioned that the Second Amendment referred to an individual right, just like the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Their involvement in politics was in response to Democratic gun control efforts in the late 70s.
Yeah? What? I'm waiting....

The Democrats did absolutely nothing regarding gun control in the late 1970s.

Here's what really happened -- The White Power movement that took over the NRA in the late 1970s did not like the civil rights movement, the feminist movement, or the gay rights movement. The Democrats supported all of these movements, which was enough for the NRA to start a "white man's rights" bullshit movement regarding guns and the Second Amendment.

And you and millions of other Republican suckers bought this NRA propaganda hook, line, and sinker for the past 40 years.
 

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Yeah? What? I'm waiting....

The Democrats did absolutely nothing regarding gun control in the late 1970s.

Here's what really happened -- The White Power movement that took over the NRA in the late 1970s did not like the civil rights movement, the feminist movement, or the gay rights movement. The Democrats supported all of these movements, which was enough for the NRA to start a "white man's rights" bullshit movement regarding guns and the Second Amendment.

And you and millions of other Republican suckers bought this NRA propaganda hook, line, and sinker for the past 40 years.
Complete nonsense. Since you're unable to refute hard evidence like the Cruikshank Supreme Court decision and John F Kennedy quotes, you've stooped to calling your opponent racist. Pitiful.
 

RIP U.S. Democracy

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Complete nonsense. Since you're unable to refute hard evidence like the Cruikshank Supreme Court decision and John F Kennedy quotes, you've stooped to calling your opponent racist. Pitiful.
History isn't racist. And I provided you a history lesson as to why the NRA and the Republican Party joined forces in the late 1970s.

It wasn't for the nonsense reasons you claimed. -- I'm still waiting for you to tell me about the Democratic gun controls efforts in the late 1970s.

You've got absolutely nothing. None of you Republicans do, except for your NRA propaganda that has poisoned your minds for over 40 years.
 
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