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How should the problems with religious historical accounts be dealt with?

tererun

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Since there is a good now flame rule in effect perhaps we can get a decent discussion going on this.

many religions tell stories that are simply factually not true. There are reasons for this. perhaps it is parable, or perhaps it is ignorance. My personal belief is that, especially in the case of big religions, school should educate our children on the basic beliefs and history of religion as it has been a huge influence in society. Even an atheist who doesn't believe in god knows that the idea has had massive effects.

So right here we have a non-offensive open discussion. How do we include religion in education, which is important to understanding the world we live in, while also dealing with the ideas that conflict with reality and science? For example at what point do you put aside the adam and eve story and start looking at historical records.
 

mak2

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I took my kids to church. I dont see the need for schools to educate them on religion beyond religious studies classes because religions in general have had a great impact on the world to date.
 

LowDown

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Since there is a good now flame rule in effect perhaps we can get a decent discussion going on this.

many religions tell stories that are simply factually not true. There are reasons for this. perhaps it is parable, or perhaps it is ignorance. My personal belief is that, especially in the case of big religions, school should educate our children on the basic beliefs and history of religion as it has been a huge influence in society. Even an atheist who doesn't believe in god knows that the idea has had massive effects.

So right here we have a non-offensive open discussion. How do we include religion in education, which is important to understanding the world we live in, while also dealing with the ideas that conflict with reality and science? For example at what point do you put aside the adam and eve story and start looking at historical records.
Religions have and are having a significant impact on world events and can be studied in that historical context. It is simple enough to talk about what people believe without getting that mixed up with verifiable historical fact.
 

Captain Adverse

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Since there is a good now flame rule in effect perhaps we can get a decent discussion going on this.

many religions tell stories that are simply factually not true. There are reasons for this. perhaps it is parable, or perhaps it is ignorance. My personal belief is that, especially in the case of big religions, school should educate our children on the basic beliefs and history of religion as it has been a huge influence in society. Even an atheist who doesn't believe in god knows that the idea has had massive effects.

So right here we have a non-offensive open discussion. How do we include religion in education, which is important to understanding the world we live in, while also dealing with the ideas that conflict with reality and science? For example at what point do you put aside the adam and eve story and start looking at historical records.
Why should any American public school educate children about any aspect of any religious belief regardless of ths size of the religious group? That is the sole purview of each religious organization as requested by their constituent members. Parents can always take their children to their place of worship and have such things taught to them, and there are also private religious schools to enroll their kids in if they so choose.

Aside from a simple lesson concerning the basic tenets and the spread of each religion in history classes there is no reason for a public school to make further mention of any religion as part of the educational process. In college students are free to study whatever religious issues they wish, if courses are available.

I don't understand why you would think anything more is necessary.
 

WCH

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Why should any American public school educate children about any aspect of any religious belief regardless of ths size of the religious group? That is the sole purview of each religious organization as requested by their constituent members. Parents can always take their children to their place of worship and have such things taught to them, and there are also private religious schools to enroll their kids in if they so choose.

Aside from a simple lesson concerning the basic tenets and the spread of each religion in history classes there is no reason for a public school to make further mention of any religion as part of the educational process. In college students are free to study whatever religious issues they wish, if courses are available.

I don't understand why you would think anything more is necessary.
It's been awhile since our children were in school but, IIRC, there are now electives classes in many religions that made be taken at the HS level. (public school)

Otherwise, if you wish you kids to be immersed in more of a religious environment, there are private schools a plenty. (least in our area)
 

WCH

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Just for curiosity's sake, I wonder which biblical stories the OP finds to be "simply not true"?
 

Artevelde

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Since there is a good now flame rule in effect perhaps we can get a decent discussion going on this.

many religions tell stories that are simply factually not true. There are reasons for this. perhaps it is parable, or perhaps it is ignorance. My personal belief is that, especially in the case of big religions, school should educate our children on the basic beliefs and history of religion as it has been a huge influence in society. Even an atheist who doesn't believe in god knows that the idea has had massive effects.

So right here we have a non-offensive open discussion. How do we include religion in education, which is important to understanding the world we live in, while also dealing with the ideas that conflict with reality and science? For example at what point do you put aside the adam and eve story and start looking at historical records.
I disagree with some of your presmises.
First of all, religious beliefs have nothing to do with being "factually" accurate or not and it is a fallacy to want to disprove religious beliefs.
Second, I agree with you that a good education inevitably also teaches children about religion because it belongs to the foundations of our society, art, history, culture, chronology, etc. But that is something very different from "teaching religion". That is a seperate area of education which will be different for every religious (or non-religious) group, and here I would let the parents choose whether or not their children should receive instruction in what religion.
 

mak2

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My beleifs are based on faith. I dont much care about fact.
 

afr0byte

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Just for curiosity's sake, I wonder which biblical stories the OP finds to be "simply not true"?
How about the flood story? There's no way he had two of every animal on the boat, and there's no evidence for a global flood.
 

Captain Adverse

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It's been awhile since our children were in school but, IIRC, there are now electives classes in many religions that made be taken at the HS level. (public school)

Otherwise, if you wish you kids to be immersed in more of a religious environment, there are private schools a plenty. (least in our area)
Perhaps, but if I were a member of the community and an issue of budget were to come up, I'd delete such electives before I got rid of Music, Gym, or even Home Economics.
 

Artevelde

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How about the flood story? There's no way he had two of every animal on the boat, and there's no evidence for a global flood.
And you have proof of this?
 

WCH

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WCH

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Perhaps, but if I were a member of the community and an issue of budget were to come up, I'd delete such electives before I got rid of Music, Gym, or even Home Economics.
I suppose you could get rid of all the college preparatory classes for advanced students also.

FWIW, our local schools are generally well funded through property taxes.
 

greyhat

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Tangent alert!

I think as long as you teach the history of a religion without the dogma then your fine. In HS our world history class gave us a pretty good understanding of the world's major religions within a historical context. This information is critical to understanding the geopolitics of the world.
 

Captain Adverse

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I suppose you could get rid of all the college preparatory classes for advanced students also.

FWIW, our local schools are generally well funded through property taxes.
Lucky you. Some school districts don't do so well in the funding area. As for college prep? I prefer skipping grades and letting the smart kids go to college early.
 

afr0byte

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And you have proof of this?
That there's no evidence of a global flood or that he couldn't have had two of every animal on the boat? As far as animals. There are many things that would make it seem pretty unlikely. For example, how would one collect the penguins that live on Antarctica? If the penguins supposedly walked to Noah, how did they not die in the heat? Surely one would freeze to death if they went there to collect them. We can barely go there today. This article has some other good points: Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition .
 

afr0byte

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WCH

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Lucky you. Some school districts don't do so well in the funding area. As for college prep? I prefer skipping grades and letting the smart kids go to college early.
Many schools are way over funded but don't get their money's worth.

As for going to college early, we'd like to finish raising our children so they are mature enough to be out on their own.
 

Artevelde

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That there's no evidence of a global flood or that he couldn't have had two of every animal on the boat? As far as animals. There are many things that would make it seem pretty unlikely. For example, how would one collect the penguins that live on Antarctica? If the penguins supposedly walked to Noah, how did they not die in the heat? Surely one would freeze to death if they went there to collect them. We can barely go there today. This article has some other good points: Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition .
I note you have no proof.
 

WCH

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Yes, but the Noah story is supposed to include all of the animals in the world, not just in a small region of the middle east.
You misunderstand what 'world' meant even after I explained it.
 

afr0byte

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I note you have no proof.
I'd like to see your evidence that the ark existed (other than quoting the Bible). I gave reasons that would make the ark story unlikely. The link I provided includes many more.
 

afr0byte

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You misunderstand what 'world' meant even after I explained it.
I guess, then, that the story shouldn't mean much to those in other parts of the world (e.g. in the North/South America), since God was only mad enough to try to kill people in that area. Everyone else was OK.
 

Artevelde

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I'd like to see your evidence that the ark existed (other than quoting the Bible). I gave reasons that would make the ark story unlikely. The link I provided includes many more.
You are dancing around the question. The fact is that you have no proof for your assertion that what is in the bible can't be true. You say it is unlikely. If that is so, then it is - by definition - not impossible.

I am not arguing here for a literal interpretation of the bible. The point is that it is a fallacy to claim that one can definitively say that this or that part is not true.
 

afr0byte

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You are dancing around the question. The fact is that you have no proof for your assertion that what is in the bible can't be true. You say it is unlikely. If that is so, then it is - by definition - not impossible.

I am not arguing here for a literal interpretation of the bible. The point is that it is a fallacy to claim that one can definitively say that this or that part is not true.
We can't say, with 100% certainty, that Ents (talking trees from Lord of the Rings) never existed. It's a pretty safe bet to say that they never did, though.
 
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