How many Pro Life people Have had an Abortion.

[Felicity]

And where is your evidence?

My evidence for what? Steen's area of "expertise?"

 

[Stace]

My evidence for what? Steen's area of "expertise?"

That, and everything else you claim as "fact"....

 

[tecoyah]

I was giving you a hint at the scope and level of his medical "expertise". Do I need to spell it out for you?

Just an FYI....Childbirth is not a difficult thing.....my last two kids were born at home....with me as the midwife (yes I am certified), we had unattended homebirths with few complications. Pregnancy is not a sickness....it is a natural process that we needlessly complicate. A doctor is rarely "required"....and often gets in the way of what is a wonderful thing.

 

[Felicity]

That, and everything else you claim as "fact"....

In this thread--what are you referring to? I support my claims very thoroughly when I have discussions and I puposefully avoid using sources that would be attacked as biased by the pro-choice side (although nearly every other source has a bias toward abortion). If there is something specific you require, I'd be happy to provide. As for evidence of steen's profession--why can't he just verify it? I will send you a link with the info if I must, but don't you think if steen feels pediatric psychiatry makes him an expert in OB matters...why wouldn't he admit his position.

What is really going on here, stace, is that steen has said he was a doctor and you believe him--others have verified that they too believe he is a doctor and you believe them. You believe what steen is saying is true because you WANT to believe what he says and you give credence to him based on hearsay because you WANT it to be medically sound. It fits your world view and supports your narrow perspective of reality. If you were truly interested in actual discussion rather than partisan posing--you would offer some opinion of your own and support it with your own citations of valid research rather relying on the say-so of a say-so doctor.

Why won't steen provide peer reviewed medical sources that unequivocally state that the products of conception are NOT an individual human being? Why not--if his position is so medically sound? Because the support DOES NOT EXIST. That is why he relies on the flaming "liar-liar" mantra and the string of adverbial criticisms that have become cliche at this point.

Ask him--stace--and while your at it--ask him to support his "expertise" in the area of OBGYN. I took a class in economics once--but no one expects me to run the FED.

 

[Felicity]

Just an FYI....Childbirth is not a difficult thing.....my last two kids were born at home....with me as the midwife (yes I am certified), we had unattended homebirths with few complications. Pregnancy is not a sickness....it is a natural process that we needlessly complicate. A doctor is rarely "required"....and often gets in the way of what is a wonderful thing.

Wonderful! And concratulations! The joys of childbirth are beautiful and natural and indeed can progress without complication. Can a midwife perform a home abortion with as much ease? No? perhaps because it is the polar opposite of the naturalness of birth--it is not a joy, not natural, not without complication.


By the way...although a birth can progress withour complications--it is far from "not difficult"--maybe from the man's perspective as he stands there and coaches--but the woman faces many things that are indeed "difficult" that as a man you can never "know."

 

[Stace]

In this thread--what are you referring to? I support my claims very thoroughly when I have discussions and I puposefully avoid using sources that would be attacked as biased by the pro-choice side (although nearly every other source has a bias toward abortion). If there is something specific you require, I'd be happy to provide. As for evidence of steen's profession--why can't he just verify it? I will send you a link with the info if I must, but don't you think if steen feels pediatric psychiatry makes him an expert in OB matters...why wouldn't he admit his position.

What is really going on here, stace, is that steen has said he was a doctor and you believe him--others have verified that they too believe he is a doctor and you believe them. You believe what steen is saying is true because you WANT to believe what he says and you give credence to him based on hearsay because you WANT it to be medically sound. It fits your world view and supports your narrow perspective of reality. If you were truly interested in actual discussion rather than partisan posing--you would offer some opinion of your own and support it with your own citations of valid research rather relying on the say-so of a say-so doctor.

Why won't steen provide peer reviewed medical sources that unequivocally state that the products of conception are NOT an individual human being? Why not--if his position is so medically sound? Because the support DOES NOT EXIST. That is why he relies on the flaming "liar-liar" mantra and the string of adverbial criticisms that have become cliche at this point.

Ask him--stace--and while your at it--ask him to support his "expertise" in the area of OBGYN. I took a class in economics once--but no one expects me to run the FED.

Who are you to say what I want, what my world views are, and what my perspective on reality is? Do you know anything about me? I really don't think so.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but I HAVE posted many responses to what others have said in these, and other, threads. I have provided sources when citing something other than my own opinion. I'm not interested in the partisan bull****, because most issues have nothing to do with whether or not you're a conservative, a liberal, or other.

Until you can stop these petty ad hominem posts, I have nothing further to say to you. I will NOT be attacked by someone that doesn't know me, or by someone that won't take the time to actually read my posts and THINK about what I'm saying.

 

[tecoyah]

Wonderful! And concratulations! The joys of childbirth are beautiful and natural and indeed can progress without complication. Can a midwife perform a home abortion with as much ease? No? perhaps because it is the polar opposite of the naturalness of birth--it is not a joy, not natural, not without complication.


By the way...although a birth can progress withour complications--it is far from "not difficult"--maybe from the man's perspective as he stands there and coaches--but the woman faces many things that are indeed "difficult" that as a man you can never "know."

Excuse me felicity....but here I must correct you. Though I cannot claim to have experienced the pain of birth...I WAS THERE, and experienced it in ways YOU can never know. I knelt before the waters and was saturated....I sucked the Muck from my sons throat with my mouth....I AM the doctor who brought my children firmly into this world. every aspect of these births were shared ...including the pain....I watched it and felt it. For YOU to tell ME what this is like.....if you have not been in my shoes, is insulting to say the least.
I have been coated in the broken waters of the womb, and have birthed the placenta. I have pulled the cord from a childs skull to allow its progression down the biorht Canal, I have reached inside my wife to free a limb from damage.....DO NOT try to tell me about birth from your little drug induced hospital bed.....tell me of the pain...fine....not of the process.
I studied the process purposefully, to save my wife the grief of another hospital birth. I understand the possible complications, as well as the time to get doctors involved. I tested the placenta for RH reaction.....I KNOW. If you actually profess to have the open minded thought process of an enlightened soul....I have a challenge for you....an easy one which requires no more than ten minutes of your time.

Read this....and tell us your opinion....it is an article by a world renound scientist and Philosopher....of some standing:

http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml

 

[Felicity]

Excuse me felicity....but here I must correct you. Though I cannot claim to have experienced the pain of birth...I WAS THERE, and experienced it in ways YOU can never know. I knelt before the waters and was saturated....I sucked the Muck from my sons throat with my mouth....I AM the doctor who brought my children firmly into this world. every aspect of these births were shared ...including the pain....I watched it and felt it. For YOU to tell ME what this is like.....if you have not been in my shoes, is insulting to say the least.
I have been coated in the broken waters of the womb, and have birthed the placenta. I have pulled the cord from a childs skull to allow its progression down the biorht Canal, I have reached inside my wife to free a limb from damage.....DO NOT try to tell me about birth from your little drug induced hospital bed.....tell me of the pain...fine....not of the process.
I studied the process purposefully, to save my wife the grief of another hospital birth. I understand the possible complications, as well as the time to get doctors involved. I tested the placenta for RH reaction.....I KNOW. If you actually profess to have the open minded thought process of an enlightened soul....I have a challenge for you....an easy one which requires no more than ten minutes of your time.

Read this....and tell us your opinion....it is an article by a world renound scientist and Philosopher....of some standing:

http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml

Tecoyah--I do not understand why you get so damned defensive at the drop of a hat. I did not insult you...I simply disagreed that your characterization of birth as "not difficult" was erroneous and it seems that you now recind that perspective. I said nothing of pain or your lack of sharing in the experience or belittled any part of your experience. I merely said the woman faces many things that are indeed "difficult" that as a man you can never "know." Do you disagree?


BTW--if anyone was insulting--this line could be considered to have an insulting tone "DO NOT try to tell me about birth from your little drug induced hospital bed"--you know even LESS of my experiences than I do of yours and yet you assume you have some idea of what I have gone through. You do not.

I have not yet, but I will look at your link.

 

[Felicity]

Okay--I read your Carl Sagan link--which, BTW, I have read before--though I did read it again to see if maybe there was something that might strike me this time as somehow addressing what I believe to be the most reasoned position. But I did not see anything new. He does cover most of the fodder that gets bandied about on these threads, but since I believe the Essence and the Nature of man is the categorical definition of what it means to be a human person and the nature of a human person includes all that man is, was, and will be--I find that Carl's essay does not address this philosophical perspective. In fact—he denies the existence of a position such as that I hold in this particular passage:

Those who assert a "right to life" are for (at most) not just any kind of life, but for--particularly and uniquely—human life. So they too, like pro-choicers, must decide what distinguishes a human being from other animals and when, during gestation, the uniquely human qualities--whatever they are--emerge.


I believe the uniquely human qualities do NOT emerge at any point during gestation. The uniquely human qualities EXIST from the moment the individual human entity comes into existence. There is not “development” of humanity for an individual human—he simply IS a human from the moment he begins.

Is there something that you thought I might find particularly enlightening considering the position I hold and I think you have an understanding of?

 

[Felicity]

Who are you to say what I want, what my world views are, and what my perspective on reality is? Do you know anything about me? I really don't think so.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but I HAVE posted many responses to what others have said in these, and other, threads. I have provided sources when citing something other than my own opinion. I'm not interested in the partisan bull****, because most issues have nothing to do with whether or not you're a conservative, a liberal, or other.

Until you can stop these petty ad hominem posts, I have nothing further to say to you. I will NOT be attacked by someone that doesn't know me, or by someone that won't take the time to actually read my posts and THINK about what I'm saying.

Gimme a break....:violin:

 

[tecoyah]

Is there something that you thought I might find particularly enlightening considering the position I hold and I think you have an understanding of?

Nope....just wanted your opinion....as I always do. Clarification is the meaning behind debate, and now I can understand your position, I do not agree with it, but I understand it. My apologies for assuming you had a hospital birth....and thus the fogging drugs involved therein....I plead emotional reaction, as this is something very dear to my heart. My bad.

 

[vergiss]

What's his specialty? If it's not OB--he's the same as you and me--I've had 5 kids....that's a few rotations on the OB unit!

So you've got a medical degree and had to work several compulsory years in general medicine? I know I haven't.

 

[Felicity]

Nope....just wanted your opinion....as I always do. Clarification is the meaning behind debate, and now I can understand your position, I do not agree with it, but I understand it. My apologies for assuming you had a hospital birth....and thus the fogging drugs involved therein....I plead emotional reaction, as this is something very dear to my heart. My bad.

I appreciate that--and I did have hospital births but no drugs of any kind on the last 4 because the first one, when I was quite young and didn't know any better, the drugs they did give me were EXACTLY the fog you described. Your experience with your wife and children sounds very precious and moving and something I'm sure you all cherish.