How many Pro Life people Have had an Abortion.

[FISHX]

Through lies, deceptions, misrepresentations, revisionist linguistics, hyperbole and other dishonesty?
Through lies, deceptions, misrepresentations, revisionist linguistics, hyperbole and other dishonesty? I guess that for prolife, the goal justifies the means.

That's as bad as the creationists, and they lie A LOT.

Eh where did that come from i was actualy being nice saying that you had pride honesty and integrity and you could educate someone on certian points if not all ie breast cancer and termination.

That was in reply to your why should we bother with debate and evidence btw.

 

[steen]

Ah, my misunderstanding, then. Sorry about that

 

[goligoth]

That would be more than 99% of abortions. And that last percent, that deals with medical isues and/or the woman's life or health.

O.k. so that last percent has a good reason...how many of the 99% of abortions have a good reason...

I know that you have stated in the past that the reasons don't matter but should they?

Do you know whether it is "silly" in HER life? Are you the expert in her life, to know this?

I don't know her, I don't know her story, or her history but I believe that many teenage abortions( that is that the woman is a teenager) are done because the woman simply doesn't want to deal with a kid because it would mess with her grades or popularity or something like that....I can't think of a scenario where her history or her story would make this a good reason...

Well, we have done this many times, with prolifers utterly and completely ignoring it. So as there is no real debate, why should we put the effort into debate and evidence?

......*humph*......ever heard the saying two wrongs don't make a right...:shrug:

 

[steen]

O.k. so that last percent has a good reason...how many of the 99% of abortions have a good reason...

YOU yourself said that they didn't need a reason. Did you forget? here is what you said:
Abortions before the fetus is developed enough to survive aren't bad....or they might be bad but they should be allowed....the fetus is just a clump of cells until that point

So obviously, their reason is not sufficient to in any way restrict their access to abortion PER YOUR OWN WORDS.

I know that you have stated in the past that the reasons don't matter but should they?

No. The ONLY reason needed is that it is her body and she doesn't want to give of her bodily resources against her will. That is the only reason needed.

I don't know her, I don't know her story, or her history but I believe that many teenage abortions( that is that the woman is a teenager) are done because the woman simply doesn't want to deal with a kid because it would mess with her grades or popularity or something like that....I can't think of a scenario where her history or her story would make this a good reason...

How do YOU know how her life will be impacted (other than that only 25% of pregnant girls end up graduating Highschool).

......*humph*......ever heard the saying two wrongs don't make a right...

Sure. I have no intention to time after time go to great effort in providing evidence when it is wholy and utterly ignored.

 

[goligoth]

YOU yourself said that they didn't need a reason. Did you forget? here is what you said:
Abortions before the fetus is developed enough to survive aren't bad....or they might be bad but they should be allowed....the fetus is just a clump of cells until that point

So obviously, their reason is not sufficient to in any way restrict their access to abortion PER YOUR OWN WORDS.

Sorry this issue is a little fuzzy in my head so there is a good chance that I will cross over myself as I did with that...
When I said that I meant it how I said it because I didn't think of the whole "having a reason' thing.

I suppose that I believe that abortions before the fetus is in second tri-mester should be allowed with any reason because then the fetus is just a lump of goo with form. Abortions in second should have a decent reason as I've described. In third tri-mester the reason should be because the mother is going to have extreme medical problems with the birth.

basically as the pregnancy progresses it becomes harder and harder to get an abortion....

No. The ONLY reason needed is that it is her body and she doesn't want to give of her bodily resources against her will. That is the only reason needed.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen but......honestly, how many woman think about sharing their resources when they think about pregnancy?? Or is this one of those B.S. page fillers that I use in school papers?

How do YOU know how her life will be impacted (other than that only 25% of pregnant girls end up graduating Highschool).

I don't know how her life will get impacted but if we asked high school girls who had abortions why they did it....what would your guess as to the most common answer be? I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that it would be because they want to protect their resources...(sarcasm)

What does that say about girls who get pregnant during Highschool???? Pregnancy doesn't stop girls from graduating it is the girls themselves who don't graduate...I have seen two girls in my high school go through with a pregnancy both have graduated....of course they might be part of 25%.....but 25% is really really low and I would like a link to prove that one...(I'll actually click on that link).

 

[Stace]

What does that say about girls who get pregnant during Highschool???? Pregnancy doesn't stop girls from graduating it is the girls themselves who don't graduate...I have seen two girls in my high school go through with a pregnancy both have graduated....of course they might be part of 25%.....but 25% is really really low and I would like a link to prove that one...(I'll actually click on that link).

Whatever the actual number, those girls probably had supportive parents that were willing to help them out.....the other 75% (or whatever it is) probably had no support system at all.

 

[doughgirl]

Goligoth said, "Abortions before the fetus is developed enough to survive aren't bad....or they might be bad but they should be allowed....the fetus is just a clump of cells until that point

Until what point? Be specific. When does the clump of cells become something?


"The thing about abortions being used for birth control is bad.....I think that the woman should have a reason for the abortion....health, or medically related , but not because she doesn't want the kid or because it would be a scandal, or any other silly reason along those lines."

Ok you just stated that abortions are not bad. That aborting just a clump of cells isnt bad. So why is using an abortion for birth control bad? ha ha


"Yes it is sad when a pro-lifer rants on and on about their god and about emotions"

I rarely talk about faith and God in my posts about abortion. Not unless the whole debate is about religion and abortion. I have stated many times that even the godless........can see that abortion is murder.

I see the pro-abortion side as emotionless, cold and unfeeling.

"but it is also sad when all of the pro-choicers rant on about the pro-lifers 'silly positions' without ever supporting their own position..."

They have to do something, the medical facts aren't on their side what else do they have?

goligoth you said, "I suppose that I believe that abortions before the fetus is in second tri-mester should be allowed with any reason because then the fetus is just a lump of goo with form. Abortions in second should have a decent reason as I've described. In third tri-mester the reason should be because the mother is going to have extreme medical problems with the birth."

You suppose? You aren't sure? We are dealing with life and death and you are just not sure? You say that the fetus is just goo in the second tri-mester. You really have no clue about fetal development do you?
Because you're statement is absolutely false. You really need to do some reading and educate yourself on this one.

Ok here we go..........you say its only a lump of goo?



The Second Trimester
By the end of the first trimester, a fetus has a beating heart, has brainwaves, moves on its own, and has many complete organs. During the second trimester organs complete their formations.
Twenty weeks after conception, babies begin to respond to small stimulations. Earlier during the pregnancy a fetus will respond to pain, however at this time the begins to respond "to a brush on its lips by sucking."(1)
Twenty-three weeks (5 months) after conception, the baby is able to think. It begins to dream and is capable of learning.(2) A week later, the baby learns to respond to sound. 40% of babies born at this time will reach adulthood.(3)
Twenty-eight weeks (6 months) after conception, the baby can breath air, and its eyes are open. By this time the fetus can hear. 90% of babies born at this time will reach adulthood.(2) There is no question that the baby is now its own person, not a part of its mother. It can learn, think, and live its own life without its mother.

Sources:

1. "Do You Hear What I Hear?" Newsweek Special Issue, Summer 1991
2. National Department of Health and Human Services
3. Ohio Department of Health

I can give you hundreds and hundreds of sites that show that you are wrong.

 

[steen]

I suppose that I believe that abortions before the fetus is in second tri-mester should be allowed with any reason because then the fetus is just a lump of goo with form. Abortions in second should have a decent reason as I've described. In third tri-mester the reason should be because the mother is going to have extreme medical problems with the birth.

basically as the pregnancy progresses it becomes harder and harder to get an abortion....

It already is like that. Now, you talked about sentience, which is not possible until THIRD trimester. So what is your reason regarding 2nd trimester?

 

[steen]

They have to do something, the medical facts aren't on their side what else do they have?

More prolife lies. We have provided plenty of medical facts; you just choose to ignore them.

The Second Trimester
By the end of the first trimester, a fetus has a beating heart, has brainwaves,

A falsehood. There are no brainwaves until after the 26th week of pregnancy. You have been provided the medical evidence for this, yet you repeat the lie. Shame ion you.

moves on its own,

Only by reflexes.

and has many complete organs.

False.

During the second trimester organs complete their formations.

False.

Twenty weeks after conception, babies begin to respond to small stimulations.

There are no babies until birth, your revisionist linguistic hyperbole none withstanding. It is a fetus.

Earlier during the pregnancy a fetus will respond to pain, however at this time the begins to respond "to a brush on its lips by sucking."(1)

ALL of these are reflexes. There is absolutely no consciousness behind it.

Twenty-three weeks (5 months) after conception, the baby is able to think.

An outright lie. And there still is no baby yet.

It begins to dream and is capable of learning.(2)

An outright lie.

A week later, the baby learns to respond to sound. 40% of babies born at this time will reach adulthood.(3)

It still is not a baby until birth.

Twenty-eight weeks (6 months) after conception, the baby can breath air,

The lungs of the FETUS (there is still no baby until birth) don't have capacity of function on their own until 30 weeks after conception.

and its eyes are open. By this time the fetus can hear.

Glad you realized now that it is a FETUS. By the way, you are now also way into 3rd trimester.

90% of babies born at this time will reach adulthood.(2) There is no question that the baby

It still is not a baby.

is now its own person,

It is not a person until birth. Your claim is false.

not a part of its mother.

Sure it is, until the umbilical cord is cut.

It can learn, think, and live its own life without its mother.

In later 3rd trimester, yes.

Sources:

1. "Do You Hear What I Hear?" Newsweek Special Issue, Summer 1991

Not exactly a scientifically accurate source.

2. National Department of Health and Human Services

They have many million publications. You need to narrow that down a bit. Or are you trying to hide something?

3. Ohio Department of Health

Again to vague. Please provide the detailed reference or retract.

I can give you hundreds and hundreds of sites that show that you are wrong.

Probably thousands and thousands. And they are all prolife lie-sites. As I have stated before, prolifers are big on lying.

 

[Felicity]

Not exactly a scientifically accurate source.
They have many million publications. You need to narrow that down a bit. Or are you trying to hide something?
Again to vague. Please provide the detailed reference or retract.
Probably thousands and thousands. And they are all prolife lie-sites. As I have stated before, prolifers are big on lying.

At least she provides sources--where are your sources? Or rather...where are your retractions? Or are you trying to hide something?

 

[Stace]

At least she provides sources--where are your sources? Or rather...where are your retractions? Or are you trying to hide something?

Seeing as how Steen is actually a doctor, I'd take his word before that of any website.

 

[Felicity]

Seeing as how Steen is actually a doctor, I'd take his word before that of any website.

Sure--I'm aware steen is a doctor as he frequently reminds us...perhaps you ought to inquire as to the good doctor steen's area of specialty. I mean--you wouldn't go to a dermatologist for advise on how to best deal with your lung cancer. You would see an oncologist--actually you would see an oncologist and a pulmonologist--and if surgery were necessary you would see a thoracic surgeon--in fact...depending on your particular medical condition, you would probably run into a few other specialties on your way to wellness. Ask steen what his specialty is....I'll wager it's NOT OBGYN....

Lastly...doctors are not "gods" (though some think they are)--they certainly DON'T have all the answers and you would be foolish to worship at that temple.

 

[vergiss]

Sure--I'm aware steen is a doctor as he frequently reminds us...perhaps you ought to inquire as to the good doctor steen's area of specialty. I mean--you wouldn't go to a dermatologist for advise on how to best deal with your lung cancer. You would see an oncologist--actually you would see an oncologist and a pulmonologist--and if surgery were necessary you would see a thoracic surgeon--in fact...depending on your particular medical condition, you would probably run into a few other specialties on your way to wellness. Ask steen what his specialty is....I'll wager it's NOT OBGYN....

Lastly...doctors are not "gods" (though some think they are)--they certainly DON'T have all the answers and you would be foolish to worship at that temple.

Don't be stupid. A dermatologist would still know more about cancer, diabetes, schizophrenia and leg fractures than a store clerk or kindergarten teacher.

 

[Felicity]

Don't be stupid. A dermatologist would still know more about cancer, diabetes, schizophrenia and leg fractures than a store clerk or kindergarten teacher.

More then documented and researched resources? If he's so learned...it should be simple to site the sources of his wisdom. Furthermore, even a store clerk could research and become quite learned in any particular issue without letters after his or her name. One of the supposed talents a "doctor" is supposed to possess is the ability to explain in detail to any lay person the medical intricacies so that the patient can make a reasoned and informed decision. The "He's a doctor so he knows what's best" position is an exercise in ignorance. Look to sources and a "good" doctor isn't afraid to give them.


What's his specialty? If it's not OB--he's the same as you and me--I've had 5 kids....that's a few rotations on the OB unit!

 

[Stace]

More then documented and researched resources? If he's so learned...it should be simple to site the sources of his wisdom. Furthermore, even a store clerk could research and become quite learned in any particular issue without letters after his or her name. One of the supposed talents a "doctor" is supposed to possess is the ability to explain in detail to any lay person the medical intricacies so that the patient can make a reasoned and informed decision. The "He's a doctor so he knows what's best" position is an exercise in ignorance. Look to sources and a "good" doctor isn't afraid to give them.


What's his specialty? If it's not OB--he's the same as you and me--I've had 5 kids....that's a few rotations on the OB unit!

Sure, anyone can go do research. Doesn't make them an expert. Doesn't matter how many kids you've had - doesn't make you an expert. I'd rather take Steen's information (which seems pretty clear to me) at face value than trust a bunch of pro-life and/or Christian websites as sources.

 

[Felicity]

Sure, anyone can go do research. Doesn't make them an expert. Doesn't matter how many kids you've had - doesn't make you an expert. I'd rather take Steen's information (which seems pretty clear to me) at face value than trust a bunch of pro-life and/or Christian websites as sources.

Well...you have that option...I personally would prefer documented resources and an informed opinion rather than someone who "claims" undeserved expertise....if you'd like having a baby delivered or an abortion performed by someone like steen...it’s my opinion that perhaps you should have your head examined--if you're under 18 perhaps steen's actual expertise may be of use to you in that endeavor.

and remember--his attending would need to okay it...

 

[Stace]

Well...you have that option...I personally would prefer documented resources and an informed opinion rather than someone who "claims" undeserved expertise....if you'd like having a baby delivered or an abortion performed by someone like steen...it’s my opinion that perhaps you should have your head examined--if you're under 18 perhaps steen's actual expertise may be of use to you in that endeavor.

and remember--his attending would need to okay it...

Well, if you'd bothered to look at my profile, you'd see that I passed 18 a few years ago.....


And as far as having my baby delivered, I'd rather have Steen do it than certain other people on this site....I'd rather have my husband do it, someone with no knowledge of childbirth whatsoever, than certain doctors I can think of, as well.

 

[Felicity]

Well, if you'd bothered to look at my profile, you'd see that I passed 18 a few years ago......

I was giving you a hint at the scope and level of his medical "expertise". Do I need to spell it out for you?

 

[FISHX]

Well, if you'd bothered to look at my profile, you'd see that I passed 18 a few years ago.....


And as far as having my baby delivered, I'd rather have Steen do it than certain other people on this site....I'd rather have my husband do it, someone with no knowledge of childbirth whatsoever, than certain doctors I can think of, as well.

Sorry guys steen will not be delvering any of your babies it isn,t his specialist field Although he is very learned and knows a lot about this feild.

 

[Stace]

I was giving you a hint at the scope and level of his medical "expertise". Do I need to spell it out for you?

Well, when you say "If you're under 18....", most people would understand that to mean your age.......if you meant something else, perhaps you should have worded it differently.

 

[steen]

Sorry, I have felicity on ignore per the inane deceptions she always spewed, but it kind of looks like some form of personal attack/vendetta or that she is trying to make me an issue in her faulty info. Am I right in that perception?

Sure seems like she is running out of actual scientific information to support her ongoing false claims. Am I right in that impression?

 

[Stace]

Sorry, I have felicity on ignore per the inane deceptions she always spewed, but it kind of looks like some form of personal attack/vendetta or that she is trying to make me an issue in her faulty info. Am I right in that perception?

Sure seems like she is running out of actual scientific information to support her ongoing false claims. Am I right in that impression?

I'm not Felicity, so I can't say for sure, but it does appear that way....

 

[steen]

Good Heavens. How does that nonsense prove any of her false points?

That is as bad as the creationists and their "<insert favorite strawman> is wrong and therefore evolution is wrong" illogical claptrap.

 

[Felicity]

she is trying to make me an issue in her faulty info

No--I'm suggesting YOU should back up YOUR faulty info with actual sources..

Good Heavens. How does that nonsense prove any of her false points?

That is as bad as the creationists and their "<insert favorite strawman> is wrong and therefore evolution is wrong" illogical claptrap.

Just suggesting you back up your claims, steen--with evidence other than your first year resident pediatric psychiatry say-so.

 

[Stace]

No--I'm suggesting YOU should back up YOUR faulty info with actual sources..
Just suggesting you back up your claims, steen--with evidence other than your first year resident pediatric psychiatry say-so.

And where is your evidence?