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How Many Abortions Does "God" Perform????

"out of biblical context". You know, if murder is to "ILLEGALLY kill", then I would have to ask you then, who did God kill, illegally? Just read the bible, God has his own law that was given 3000 years ago. Secular law on such matters is....new. You would, at the very least, have to apply God's law to say that he "murdered".

And even then, there is a second objection. Does the fact that God killed children mean that WE are allowed to kill children? If we are to believe God's law, then that would seem to be a no. He proved his strength and mastery of all elements of the universe, if it's against his law to murder, then it's against the law, it doesn't matter what he's done or whether you like it or not. He's the master of the universe, not you. You are merely his creation.

All I am pointing out is how this doesn't apply to abortion and god isn't morally opposed to killing children or genocide. In fact, it even approves of it.
 
Alright well, if you're legitimate, then I can answer this.

When discussing God, it is important to know first how the bible approaches God. It is a very panth-ic(??? weird word there) idea, as opposed to the anthropomorphic, or even diest-ic idea of God. In Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." So the concept of God, as an entity, is something that totally encompasses everything. Sure you could SAY that God 'aborts' but you wouldn't even have to look at a miscarriage for that, you could just look at the fact that some women do abort their fetuses, and that God has created some women to have this spirit to go and abort their babies in the womb. You could also say God creates evil. It's right there, he says it himself. That doesn't mean we're permitted to be evil with each other, at least, not evil as defined by the bible. In fact, I think both you and I can agree completely, that we shouldn't be evil to each other. If Ted Bundy were to Kill Joe Shmo, both you and I would condemn Ted Bundy and agree that he was wrong. Neither one of us would say "oh, well, since God also killed people, that means Ted Bundy is allowed to murder". No, both you and I know that it simply doesn't work like that.

So why can God create evil then? and issue plagues of egypt and darkness and the like? Well, lets look more on the idea of God. He's given may 'attributes' in the bible, but no human idea or attribute could ever encompass god. There are many religions, and christian sects, that think of God as a man, and that's just not the case. The words used to describe god are merely attributes, at most, worded in a way so that we humans can understand them. One of the main attributes though, is that there is God "as the Judge" and God "as the merciful". As God, he judges us all, but also acts mercifully. If say, your brother gets in a car wreck, and dies, you would say that's very evil and you would mourn his loss. However, God knows all secrets. Your brother reaches the heavenly court and he asks "why was I killed?" and the court may say "Because you committed adultery with your brother's wife, a sin worthy of death." He may respond "that was years ago!" and the heavenly court would say "yes, and you were given many years to repent to your brother, and avoid this fate! Your time came, and now you are to be judged for this horrible sin!"

God is allowed to judge in ways humans cant, because God, being all knowing and present in all the world, knows every secret and every sin we do. A person may be able to go to a secular court and deny that he ever killed so-and-so, or cheated on so-and-so, but God always knows and judges accordingly. That's why his judgement is always righteous, while us....well....sometimes our judgements make mistakes.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that from your perspective. Your description of what god "is" has always made more sense to me than the idea of some old dude (deistic god) on a throne or something, standing apart from everything.

I tend to think along the lines of the sentence I bolded a lot when reading religious texts, especially things like the OT. I'm not even able to stay clear regarding what the writers intended to be taken figuratively, allegorically or literally a lot of the time.
 
God's perfectly happy with abortion when it suits him - and presumably when left up to a 'qualified' man to supervise. It's in his book:


Numbers 5:16-28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children.
 
Except, I am. You who are so enlightened, tell me....under what basis is it enlightened to have a less universal view of human life than the bible? The bible has such a universal view as to include the unborn. You want to limit that and say "that's not a life, that's just cells". That seems like such a step backward to me. Why should you be more primitive than people 3000 years ago? Philosophers of modernity told us we'd be well passed this point by now.

There is nowhere in the Bible forbidding a woman from terminating her own pregnancy. Not.one.single.verse.

Besides, God is only relevant to his/her adherents.
 
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Some things there are no direct scriptures addressing the matter, that is true...it is then that one has to consider the moral principle of the matter...God does not micro-manage His worshippers...Matthew 22:37-40...
 
All I am pointing out is how this doesn't apply to abortion and god isn't morally opposed to killing children or genocide.
Except you're proving the point. He's the master of all creation. This applies to abortion, and for that matter, all immoral injustices, because we're not gods. Had Adam not eaten of the tree, we would not have genocide or abortion, or any evil. Unfortunately, we have no one to blame but ourselves in that matter.

In fact, it even approves of it.
Well, what do you even mean? If you killed an iraqi in 2003, you'd still be tried in court, maybe even international court, and you could not say "well, President Bush invaded iraq, so it's allowed to kill iraqis".
 
You are taking that out of biblical context, because if you read Exodus, the killing of children is sanctioned by god and genocide is later justified under god too. In addition to that, the word they originally use isn't murder either. Thou shalt not murder is just a modern interpretation of the 6th commandment.
It wasn't the hebrews that killed the first born. It was God, because God knows all, and he punishes "measure for measure". How can you blame god, when it was pharoah that would not let the slaves go? In truth, Pharaoh was guilty of killing his first born. In a miraculous, and powerful display, he destroyed Egypt and brought his nation out from among them. All the curses could have been avoided though, had Pharoah only listened to the first 9 plagues.

The problem with the 6th commandment is that it is originally used as a legal term; illegal killing judged harmful by the community. If had god wanted to specifically condemn abortion, he had the mean to do so and made the choice not to. Instead, what we receive is a commandment concerning whether we boil a lamb in it's mother's own milk or not.
"he chose not to do so"
He banned murder. That was the choice. It's the same thing, biblically, although abortion does not carry with it, the death penalty. But by banning murder, he banned abortion. I supposed he thought people were smart enough to understand this simple principle.

By the way, do you know what had to be do, to abort a fetus in ancient times? That's right, you legitimately had to kill it. And many people did this. The greeks would leave their unwanted babies to die, the carthaginians would sacrifice then, and the romans would just kill them after being born. Abortion, as we know it today, simply did not exist, although people COULD create conditions to cause miscarriages and often did. Such people were punished, biblically.

Technically, this wouldn't be murder but probably manslaughter.
No. You're allowed to kill for self-defense reasons. This would be neither manslaughter nor murder. Manslaughter is still punishable, but self-defense killing is not and the soldier would be entirely guiltless biblically.
Perfect determined by whom? The bible is filled with countless stories of aggressive warmongering, genocide, pillaging, plundering, wanton destruction, sexual slavery, rape, misogyny, child abuse, homophobia, unfair laws, cruel and unusual punishment, the punishment of innocents, and brutal chattel slavery. The biblical god authorizes all this.
Maybe you should read the stories a little carefully. The nature of man is aggressive, and the bible addresses this through both stories and commandments.

There is a reason why the death of the first born in egypt is called a "curse" because no sane person in any sane country, ESPECIALLY in the west, should want to kill babies! It's a curse! If you freely pronounce this for yourself or others, then what's the difference between you and the egyptians?
 
There is nowhere in the Bible forbidding a woman from terminating her own pregnancy. Not.one.single.verse.

Besides, God is only relevant to his/her adherents.

There is actually. As I explained before, it's considered murder, but it doesn't carry the death penalty. In ancient times, modern abortion under US planned parenthood did not exist. Back then, to abort, you had to create conditions to cause a miscarriage. As I explained, people were punished for this, specifically with a large fine. It says this in Exodus 21:22
 
Thanks for taking the time to explain that from your perspective. Your description of what god "is" has always made more sense to me than the idea of some old dude (deistic god) on a throne or something, standing apart from everything.

I tend to think along the lines of the sentence I bolded a lot when reading religious texts, especially things like the OT. I'm not even able to stay clear regarding what the writers intended to be taken figuratively, allegorically or literally a lot of the time.

If genesis is any indicator, it's obviously not meant to be taken literally. The old testaments gives us profound moral lessons about the nature of man, which actually hold to this day, and even deal with a lot of modern problems(for example, the Tower of Babel).

But thank you though! Indeed, God isn't a being whos nature is like man's. I hate to bring star wars into this, but he's more like a 'divine force'. That's why you can have such evil, and at the same time, good from the same source. He is both chaos, and order. When we all contribute to sustain our societies, and treat each other with good and fair ethics, then God will insure that our societies and our order continue. When we forget this, the divine judgement will come in the form of well....many, chaotic curses natural and otherwise.

Christians only focus on "the good, merciful side", which allows chaos and evil to fester. That's why you get pedophile priests because, when you make God to be so merciful that anything is permitted, then evil will always be present, and grow. You have to have justice as well, to get rid of evil.
 
A miscarriage isn't "God's abortion". That's just insane. It's a miscarriage. No god stuck a need in a girl and tore a baby apart. The pregnancy didn't make it to term due to biological and/or environmental factors. Shocking news, I know.

No, God is actually much more brutal about it:

Hosea 13:16

"Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open."

2 Kings 8:12

"You will set fire to their fortresses, kill their young men with the sword, dash their little ones to pieces, and rip open their pregnant women."

Psalm 139:9

"Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."
 
No, God is actually much more brutal about it:

Hosea 13:16

"Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open."

2 Kings 8:12

"You will set fire to their fortresses, kill their young men with the sword, dash their little ones to pieces, and rip open their pregnant women."

Psalm 139:9

"Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

lol you go against god, and then you're surprised that there are curses? Where were you before the universe was created? The bigger question is, why would would you willing want these curses put on society? What did society do to you, that you want children ripped from the womb?
 
lol you go against god, and then you're surprised that there are curses? Where were you before the universe was created? The bigger question is, why would would you willing want these curses put on society? What did society do to you, that you want children ripped from the womb?

"lol", those verses are funny?
 
"lol", those verses are funny?

Your implications are funny. I'm sure you find the idea of chopping up fetuses to be quite hilarious. You saw samaria's curse and said "Wow! Great reward!"
 
Your implications are funny. I'm sure you find the idea of chopping up fetuses to be quite hilarious. You saw samaria's curse and said "Wow! Great reward!"

No, you have entirely missed the point.

The thread was about "God's abortions" the OP giving miscarriages as an example. You wrote that miscarriages are not "God's abortion", so I gave explicit Biblical examples of God ordering abortions and infanticide in such a brutal way that he not only killed the fetus, but the mother as well, and in the most brutal and cruel way possible.

I am an Atheist, so I am not for what God supposedly ordered his followers to do, but rather I am pointing out that by his own word's your God is the most brutal and cruel abortionist perhaps in all of written history.
 
No, you have entirely missed the point.

The thread was about "God's abortions" the OP giving miscarriages as an example. You wrote that miscarriages are not "God's abortion", so I gave explicit Biblical examples of God ordering abortions and infanticide in such a brutal way that he not only killed the fetus, but the mother as well, and in the most brutal and cruel way possible.

I am an Atheist, so I am not for what God supposedly ordered his followers to do, but rather I am pointing out that by his own word's your God is the most brutal and cruel abortionist perhaps in all of written history.
Right. They were curses. You know what a curse is, right? Not something you want in society.

And as I said 9 pages ago. Both good and evil comes from god. That's why the tree adam ate from was the tree of "knowledge of good and evil". We have become like God in that we can create good or evil. Using the very text that you manipulate, this proves that abortion is an evil by merit of being called a curse. So you've only proved my point. It wasn't evidence for you at all. You have proven that God curses the wicked nations, which is something I've known for a very long time.
 
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Right. They were curses. You know what a curse is, right? Not something you want in society.

And as I said 9 pages ago. Both good and evil comes from god. That's why the tree adam ate from was the tree of "knowledge of good and evil". We have become like God in that we can create good or evil. Using the very text that you manipulate, this proves that abortion is an evil by merit of being called a curse. So you've only proved my point. It wasn't evidence for you at all. You have proven that God curses the wicked nations, which is something I've known for a very long time.

Actually all it proves is that abortion by means of cutting a woman's abdomen open with a sword is evil.
 
Actually all it proves is that abortion by means of cutting a woman's abdomen open with a sword is evil.

as opposed to using a scalpel. Right. Sword = evil. Scalpel + stethoscope = moral good. ok.

What if a woman wants her abdomen cut open with a sword? Even if it kills her? Is assisted suicide murder? It is, after all, illegal in some states.
 
as opposed to using a scalpel. Right. Sword = evil. Scalpel + stethoscope = moral good. ok.

What if a woman wants her abdomen cut open with a sword? Even if it kills her? Is assisted suicide murder? It is, after all, illegal in some states.

This is a stupid argument you are making.
 
Miscarriage. "God's" abortion.
Happens quite often.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/when-do-most-miscarriages-occur-2371739



"God" aborts 30-40% of all pregnancies.

I assume though that god is allowed to "kill babies" like that because "he" works in mysterious ways? :roll:


Sorry if this has been stated before but I have no time to read through the whole thread right now.

If God exists the answer would be every damn one of them.

God is all powerful and could stop any abortion he wanted, therefore every single abortion, sick was, death, crime, rape, ect is in fact gods will.

If God does actually exist the guy is a dick!!!

Sorry to be so blunt but we are approaching the anniversary of the death of my children's mother.

She was such a wonderful person i never got past the anger stage...
 
If this were the standard, god would have raging torrents of apocalyptic levels pouring from his hands.

Thankfully, there is no evidence a god exists. Alas.
 
Sorry if this has been stated before but I have no time to read through the whole thread right now.

If God exists the answer would be every damn one of them.

God is all powerful and could stop any abortion he wanted, therefore every single abortion, sick was, death, crime, rape, ect is in fact gods will.

If God does actually exist the guy is a dick!!!

Sorry to be so blunt but we are approaching the anniversary of the death of my children's mother.

She was such a wonderful person i never got past the anger stage...

Wait, God is a dick for allowing abortions?

I thought abortions were supposed to be a moral good...now, they're not a moral good? You want god to prevent them?
 
Wait, God is a dick for allowing abortions?

I thought abortions were supposed to be a moral good...now, they're not a moral good? You want god to prevent them?

I am neutral on the subject, I do not possess the proper plumbing to ever have to make that decision, therefore I have absolutely no right to have anything to say about what someone with the proper plumbing decides for themselves...

That would be up to their god what happens wouldn't it???
 
I am neutral on the subject, I do not possess the proper plumbing to ever have to make that decision, therefore I have absolutely no right to have anything to say about what someone with the proper plumbing decides for themselves...

That would be up to their god what happens wouldn't it???

Ok, if you're Mr. Neutral over there, why would God be a dick for allowing abortions? You were the one that said it, despite saying you don't even have the "proper plumbing" to make such a judgement.
 
Except you're proving the point. He's the master of all creation. This applies to abortion, and for that matter, all immoral injustices, because we're not gods. Had Adam not eaten of the tree, we would not have genocide or abortion, or any evil. Unfortunately, we have no one to blame but ourselves in that matter.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

Well, what do you even mean? If you killed an iraqi in 2003, you'd still be tried in court, maybe even international court, and you could not say "well, President Bush invaded iraq, so it's allowed to kill iraqis".

There is no precedent for the biblical god opposing abortion. You are just projecting your own sense of morality upon a character.
 
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