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How Legitimate Peace And Unity Begins

devildavid

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How about we have a decent proper investigation of the claims of fraud first and if the investigation comes up with the result that fraud did change the election result there is another election?

If there is a proper, open, investigation with all claims of fraund fully looked at you will find that 99% of the Trump supporters will accept the result.
How about first making sure these claims meet the standards to be investigated other than "I saw it in a video" or "Trump said so". If your neighbor thinks you are a criminal should you be investigated on their say so?

Trump supporters are so far gone into their alternate facts reality rabbit hole that they will never accept any facts or reality. They will just come up with a new conspiracy theory about how the investigations were fraudulent. Trump supporters believe everything Trump tells them to believe and I don't see the chance that Trump will ever give up on his false claims.
 

devildavid

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😂😂😂 Clearly, you’re oblivious to the fact that Project Veritas is well known for their extremest views and lying.

Let me know when you start taking bets on further federal investigations into purported election/voting fraud in the 2020 presidential election. ;)
Project Veritas is named ironically.
 

Alizia Tyler

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Wow, you really do commit to a lot of windyfoggery with your sealioning.
I had heard that term but forgot what it meant:
people who troll online by pretending to ask sincere questions, but just keep feigning ignorance and repeating 'polite' follow ups until someone gets fed up. That way, they can cast their opponents as attacking them and being unreasonable. It's pretty common on comment sections of weather blogs re: climate change. It's called 'sealioning', and the term is based on this lovely comic
I have done nor am I doing anything of the sort. I am making clear, fair and reasoned statements about what I see.

Windyfoggery is also wrongly employed.

I'd appreciate it if you'd deal strictly with the ideas presented.
 
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devildavid

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How you feel, of course, has validity and I don't dismiss it. There is something somewhat grotesque in the manner of Donald Trump. I wrote about that in my second bulleted post.

But at the same time how you feel means nothing to those who feel and think differently. I always make an effort to try to see how they see him, and of course by 'they' I refer to approximately half of the nation that you-plural refer to as citizens of Dumbf***kistan and someone else here referred to as 'rubes'. What interests me -- sociologically -- is this radically different perception, a radically different way of seeing, a radically different interpretation.

I came across this video presentation and watched it last night. What I find interesting in it is that the view that it offers, the glimpse into the activity of Donald Trump, does not appear in 'the legacy media', though perhaps I should limit what I say to the NYTs, for the simple reason that, like you, they have deliberately allowed themselves and their reporting and seeing to become clouded by their hysterical rage and focused hatred.

What I assume you cannot understand, because you have willed not to understand, is that what this man talks about, and what is important to him, though absolutely irrelevant to you and totally unimportant, indeed a sign of ignorance and rubishness, nevertheless is a substantial part of Dumbf***kistan's and those rube's value-system. And in my own case -- though I am deeply suspicious of American political machinations generally and am chary to invest in handing over confidence to them -- I have gotten the impression that Donald Trump as a man has grown and changed during the course of his presidency. I think he 'rose to the occasion'. I assume that the weight of the responsibility moved him in certain ways. Donald Trump is a flawed man, no doubt of this, yet he has done many things that seem to me -- within the context of American presidencies -- very worthy.

If we are to be honest and if we were to speak honestly about perceptions of Americans in a general sense, we might have to stop and linger over your running description: petty and small-minded, rude, ignorant, arrogant, and ill-mannered. All that I want to point out is that these are national *character defects*. As you know I have written about 'the dumbing-down of America'. And I believe that I am clear and on the mark if I refer, with some compassion and empathy, to the malnutrition of America's working class (and of course with special focus on those regions Michael Moore has been concerned with through his entire neo-journalistic career, and those regions which determined DT's election). So, where I have set my stake, as it were, is in defending and appreciating that class of person -- those people -- that you refer to as Dumbf***kistan.

[cont. next]
Trump and his followers are internet trolls who think that reality is contained in right wing internet memes and YouTube videos. The evidence of the dumbing down of America is there online for all to see. There is no good reason to have empathy for internet trolls.
 

Tim the plumber

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How about first making sure these claims meet the standards to be investigated other than "I saw it in a video" or "Trump said so". If your neighbor thinks you are a criminal should you be investigated on their say so?

Trump supporters are so far gone into their alternate facts reality rabbit hole that they will never accept any facts or reality. They will just come up with a new conspiracy theory about how the investigations were fraudulent. Trump supporters believe everything Trump tells them to believe and I don't see the chance that Trump will ever give up on his false claims.
Have you not noticed the woman arrested as a result of one of these videos?
 

Alizia Tyler

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Trump and his followers are internet trolls who think that reality is contained in right wing internet memes and YouTube videos. The evidence of the dumbing down of America is there online for all to see. There is no good reason to have empathy for internet trolls.
David, you can do better thinking than this! The followers of Trump are in most cases from the American working class and they represent a specific socio-economic group. Others have attached to the *movement* so-called and have infused into it numerous intentions or aspirations. Many of these people are Evangelicals and Christians of various sorts. They are an *alienated class* and are largely dismissed and also disparaged. True, this class of person struggles to make sense of the world and resorts to often exaggerated interpretations, but what they are trying to do is just that: interpret their world.

YouTube is and has been, even if you do not grasp it, a predominant communication-tool for all sorts of different ideas and perspectives, from the utterly inane all the way up to the communication of the most sophisticated ideas. Myself I have been exposed to talks by important philosophers that have helped to expand my understanding.

It is true that *dumbing-down* is a real thing though.

Calling them 'trills' and such is just venting on your part. It is noise and means nothing, absolutely nothing.
 

devildavid

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David, you can do better thinking than this! The followers of Trump are in most cases from the American working class and they represent a specific socio-economic group. Others have attached to the *movement* so-called and have infused into it numerous intentions or aspirations. Many of these people are Evangelicals and Christians of various sorts. They are an *alienated class* and are largely dismissed and also disparaged. True, this class of person struggles to make sense of the world and resorts to often exaggerated interpretations, but what they are trying to do is just that: interpret their world.

YouTube is and has been, even if you do not grasp it, a predominant communication-tool for all sorts of different ideas and perspectives, from the utterly inane all the way up to the communication of the most sophisticated ideas. Myself I have been exposed to talks by important philosophers that have helped to expand my understanding.

It is true that *dumbing-down* is a real thing though.

Calling them 'trills' and such is just venting on your part. It is noise and means nothing, absolutely nothing.
I can't do better than to describe reality. The extreme right wing has put a lot of time and resources into creating memes and videos on the internet for propaganda purposes. They fuel a lot of online conspiracy theories as well. Conspiracy theories have become a cottage industry online. What Trump essentially did on Twitter is called trolling, another right wing internet pastime.

No right wing extremists are spending any time online watching in depth philosophical videos. They are cherry picking philosophers words to create memes and posting short, highly edited videos to "prove" such things as election fraud. You can see it taking place right in this forum. Don't believe me, go interact with some o them and see how intellectually in depth they get. They run on emotion fueled by propaganda. Their attention span is no longer than a tweet from Trump. That is exactly why Trump used Twitter as his main means of communication. Trump never, ever went in depth with his attention span deprived followers. Ring the bell, and they salivate.
 

Tim the plumber

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There will be civility when the elected politicians are held to the same standards as the person on the street.

Slander, defamation, and inciting unruly behavior should be cause for censure or other punitive measures..........right up to removal from office.
Does that include those those who support the BLM riots?
 

Tim the plumber

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I can't do better than to describe reality. The extreme right wing has put a lot of time and resources into creating memes and videos on the internet for propaganda purposes. They fuel a lot of online conspiracy theories as well. Conspiracy theories have become a cottage industry online. What Trump essentially did on Twitter is called trolling, another right wing internet pastime.

No right wing extremists are spending any time online watching in depth philosophical videos. They are cherry picking philosophers words to create memes and posting short, highly edited videos to "prove" such things as election fraud. You can see it taking place right in this forum. Don't believe me, go interact with some o them and see how intellectually in depth they get. They run on emotion fueled by propaganda. Their attention span is no longer than a tweet from Trump. That is exactly why Trump used Twitter as his main means of communication. Trump never, ever went in depth with his attention span deprived followers. Ring the bell, and they salivate.
Not-lefty philosophers are taken down from social media.

This is the world we live in.
 

devildavid

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Have you not noticed the woman arrested as a result of one of these videos?
Have you notice that being arrested does not mean you committed the act you are being arrested for? Have you notice that the video is from Texas and contains no evidence of voter fraud in a state that Trump won?
 

devildavid

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Not-lefty philosophers are taken down from social media.

This is the world we live in.
No, they are not. There are plenty of right wingers still spouting crap on the internet. Hell, you just posted their crap and proved yourself wrong.
 

Alizia Tyler

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No right wing extremists are spending any time online watching in depth philosophical videos. They are cherry picking philosophers words to create memes and posting short, highly edited videos to "prove" such things as election fraud. You can see it taking place right in this forum. Don't believe me, go interact with some of them and see how intellectually in depth they get
My brother-in-law (who is an ex-patriot American) and my own husband (Finnish ex-patriot) were both trained in philosophy and are both involved in dissident right ideas and activism. At an idea-level exclusively. You are quite wrong about the European Right in any case. True, many Americans are not well-versed in the *idea* aspect of Right-leaning politics, but that is changing. Indeed it must change. I can mention a dozen philosophically-trained Americans who deal in many of the notions I bring up here.

It may interest you to know that I see you as being devoid in any substantial sense of 'intellectual depth'. Or perhaps you are being stingy! So in this sense you are an example of a general trend.
 
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Tim the plumber

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Have you notice that being arrested does not mean you committed the act you are being arrested for? Have you notice that the video is from Texas and contains no evidence of voter fraud in a state that Trump won?
Yes.

The video also shows a pattern of this extensive voter fraud being done en-masse for many elections previously.

there needs to be a clean up.
 

Tim the plumber

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No, they are not. There are plenty of right wingers still spouting crap on the internet. Hell, you just posted their crap and proved yourself wrong.
I'm sure your side will be very active in trying to remove any who have any ideas you don't like.
 

devildavid

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My brother-in-law (who is an ex-patriot American) and my own husband (Finnish) were both trained in philosophy and are both involved in dissident right ideas and activism. You are quite wrong about the European Right in any case. True, many Americans are not well-versed in the *idea* aspect of Right-leaning politics, but that is changing. Indeed it must change.

It may interest you to know that I see you as being devoid in any substantial sense of 'intellectual depth'. So in this sense you are an example of a general trend.
Your personal experience may be giving you a false view of what is really happening. And perhaps you should take you view of me and reflect upon yourself. You name drop and talk about what you have read but as yet have failed to present anything of intellectual depth or detail about the ideas you claim are the basis of what you call the "dissident right".
 

devildavid

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Yes.

The video also shows a pattern of this extensive voter fraud being done en-masse for many elections previously.

there needs to be a clean up.
No, the video does not show any such thing. Alleged fraud by one person in the state of Texas tells us absolutely nothing about election fraud in the general election or in any other states. If fraud is so widespread, every state should be investigated, yet Trump and the right aren't asking for that. But you can go ahead and investigate Texas for fraud and maybe find that the Trump campaign and the republicans engaged in it there. After all, one example means it's everywhere.
 

devildavid

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I'm sure your side will be very active in trying to remove any who have any ideas you don't like.
You have no idea what my side is. You have been programmed by consuming too much divisive propaganda on the internet. You are the one who wants their to be sides, so you you can pretend to be the defender of truth no matter how obvious they are lies. You are the one fueling this attitude, not me.
 

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Your personal experience may be giving you a false view of what is really happening. And perhaps you should take you view of me and reflect upon yourself. You name drop and talk about what you have read but as yet have failed to present anything of intellectual depth or detail about the ideas you claim are the basis of what you call the "dissident right".
Name-dropping is a tactic to associate oneself with a given authority or figure so to render oneself more important, isn't it? Like at a cocktail party or something? (You should see me in a party setting. Talk about *working a room*!)

But what I do is to refer to many different people, of all political persuaions, in the course of explaining my views. What else are we supposed to do here.

As to 'full exposition' of ideas for the purposes of convincing, no, you are right, I do not do that. Because the people who do that have written books. Access them. Learn. But what I try to do is offer some decent resources that have helped me.

David: What are you reading these days?
 
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Tim the plumber

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No, the video does not show any such thing. Alleged fraud by one person in the state of Texas tells us absolutely nothing about election fraud in the general election or in any other states. If fraud is so widespread, every state should be investigated, yet Trump and the right aren't asking for that. But you can go ahead and investigate Texas for fraud and maybe find that the Trump campaign and the republicans engaged in it there. After all, one example means it's everywhere.
The ease and acceptance of the mechanism, how the payments were easily negotiated and accepted over the phone shows it is very widespread. There are lots of other videos of election fraud.
 

Tim the plumber

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You have no idea what my side is. You have been programmed by consuming too much divisive propaganda on the internet. You are the one who wants their to be sides, so you you can pretend to be the defender of truth no matter how obvious they are lies. You are the one fueling this attitude, not me.
You have ideas that are not part of the new woke adjenda. You are simply a pawn in the machine. When many people tell you the same thing in different ways it is you who is at fault.
 

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Republicans must:

  • To a man and woman acknowledge the elections were legitimate, Biden won fairly, and Donald Trump’s fantastical claims of election rigging were just that. They must acknowledge the voter fraud hoax they used as a predicate for their campaigning.
  • Those who incited the insurrection by backing these claims should resign. Cruz and Hawley have to go, for sure.
  • Donald Trump must be impeached with strong bi-partisan support. Removal, should it come now or next congress, same. Both parties must speak with one voice where he is concerned.
  • LEadership must ratchet way down the Rush Limbaification of their rhetoric. Stop using commie marxist socialist interchangably in response to virtually every policy proposal a Democratic politician makes (be adults, and stop with the dumb DEMOCRAT POL shit). Stop calling your voters “patriots” vs everyone else.
  • Republican voters themselves need to take a breath and instead of demanding we listen to ”74m of us” stop to think there were 81m who disagreed, we are Americans too, and we should have a say as well. The idea that the 74m are the single most important group of humans in the country demanding all of our oxygen is an idea that needs to be put to bed.
Notice none of these bullet points require accepting policies you don’t agree with, polticians you don’t wish to vote for, etc. But if your expression of peace and unity is simply demanding no accountablity for the GOP while still telling us it was a rigged election and we’re all commies, and George Soros, blah blah nope. Nope.

Elections have consequences.
These are all well-thought out points and fair concessions. But how do you logically convince people who lived in an alternative universe for the past 6 years?

Biden winning the election was no surprise. It was expected. If you cannot believe Biden would beat Trump, then you obviously kept your eyes closed for the last four years. Trump consistently polled in the 40% range on the approval side and the 50% range on the disapproval side. RCP and 538 electoral college maps consistently had Biden winning from the beginning. If that didn't convince you about Biden winning the election, how about losing all the lawsuits when it came to voter fraud and state laws on absentee balloting, including two Supreme Court judicial reviews?

But guess what, it doesn't stop there. When Mitch McConnell came out and said, "the election is over...Contesting the election would be political poison...Congrats Biden and Harris for winning", you would think the light bulb in their heads would turn on, but no. If the leader of the GOP in the Senate, doesn't convince people of the Biden-Harris victory, nothing will.

The best thing for the GOP and their supporters is to distance themselves from Trump and his loyal demagogues, and pick a candidate like Romney or Larry Hogan in 2024. My best advice would be: (1) Look at the playbook of Teddy Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower and Ronald Reagan. You know massively popular Republicans who actually built a coalition that expanded the base and brought forth real changes to our culture. (2) Actually come up with an agenda to address economic inequality, health-care, and the environment. Simply running on "socialism is bad" is only going to produce more negative election results. For example, the ACA and Public Option programs was labeled as "socialism" even though they were literally copied from Republican-thinkers. Richard Nixon in the 70s, proposed requiring every employer to provide health-care insurance to their full-time employees and guaranteed minimum income for poor and low-income Americans. In the 90s, Newt Gingrich and Heritage Foundation came up with the idea of requiring every American to have health-care insurance. In the 2000s, Mitt Romney passed a health-care bill in Massachusetts identical to the ACA.
 
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