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How important is voting?

How important is voting?

  • Very

    Votes: 36 64.3%
  • Important, but futile

    Votes: 7 12.5%
  • Meh

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • Not very

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • Not at all

    Votes: 3 5.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 6 10.7%

  • Total voters
    56

PirateMk1

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Fair point. I don't always vote for every podunk judge or commissioner on the ballot. I've been known to vote for the races where I am informed and leave those blank if I feel I cannot make an informed decision. Most of those lower-level people, for the most part, are only doing what those at higher levels allow them to do.



I agree, I'd rather idiots not vote, either, but that wasn't my point for the purposes of this thread. My point was that idiots, whether they vote or not, are part of the problem, precisely because by being idiots the system takes advantage and does it's own selfish/idiotic things. I'd rather voters not be idiots.

You may well say that on Tuesdays it show rain down In and Out double doubles. (Keep praying for that. It never occurs. :() Their are stupid people in the world if they a just smart enough to NOT vote them I am cool with it. Otherwise life sucks and we get to deal with the resulting bull****.
 

PirateMk1

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Maybe that's not a problem you have in the US, due to your majority voting system, but I'd say to fellow Germans that voting is important, don't they want to end up with lunatics in the parliament.

There are anti-constitutional, anti-freedom parties, and their chance to win seats increases, the lower the turnout is. Even if you don't know which of the established parties to vote for, you dislike them equally or just consider them the lesser evil -- most at least know they don't want Nazis in the parliament. So vote against them. Vote for the lesser evil.

Also, I am annoyed by people who keep constantly complaining about "the politicians", yet don't vote. There are many parties to chose from, even if many of them are just minor splinter parties with few prospects of winning seats, if you want to protest against the established parties. And the only reason why none of them wins seats, and does not bring more competition into the parliament, is because those who are fed up with the established who are allegedly all the same, don't vote but stay at home.

I like to tell them: Better use your freedom to make a difference, instead of complaining.

I have come to despise voting for the lesser of two evils. I don't anymore. I vote for who I want instead of the jackasses with a D or R behind their name. I rather throw my vote away then vote either of them parties anymore. I will make an exception for an exceptional people.
 

German guy

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I have come to despise voting for the lesser of two evils. I don't anymore. I vote for who I want instead of the jackasses with a D or R behind their name. I rather throw my vote away then vote either of them parties anymore. I will make an exception for an exceptional people.

In America, refusing to vote makes a lot of sense. You don't have anti-republican parties that might enter the parliament if the turnout is very low. In Germany, 5% of the votes is enough for a party to enter parliament.
 

PeteEU

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You know, the usual: coercion and fraud - bad, freedom of choice and empathy - good. The Golden Rule, and all that jazz....

Again.. all depends on definition and who we are talking about.

Lets take coercion. US presidential election 2004. There was a lot of direct coercion by the GOP to cast fear into soccer moms about national security and terror. It worked. There was also a lot of issues with certain election areas.

Freedom of choice is good you say.. then why does the right want to take that freedom of choice away from homosexuals?

Empathy yea that is good, unless the name is Kennedy it seems...

I am sure you can find plenty of the opposite examples :)

Point is, the world is never black and white and democracy is great but not perfect. But democracy does get it right far more than some elitist right wing paradise system where the few dominate the many on political policy.
 

Cyrylek

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Again.. all depends on definition and who we are talking about.

Lets take coercion. US presidential election 2004. There was a lot of direct coercion by the GOP to cast fear into soccer moms about national security and terror. It worked. There was also a lot of issues with certain election areas.

Freedom of choice is good you say.. then why does the right want to take that freedom of choice away from homosexuals?

Empathy yea that is good, unless the name is Kennedy it seems...

I am sure you can find plenty of the opposite examples :)

Point is, the world is never black and white and democracy is great but not perfect. But democracy does get it right far more than some elitist right wing paradise system where the few dominate the many on political policy.

Fear-mongering is not "direct coercion", but I don't quite understand what is your argument. The GOP is not a libertarian party? No, it is not (although it has a fringe presence of libertarians). Democracy is better than oligarchy? Of course it is. Have I ever suggested otherwise?
 

Shadow Serious

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Voting should be mandatory for all citizens that can legally vote. What is the point of having a democracy if people dont vote or participate.. then we might as well have kept our kings/queens/emperors.

The United States of America is supposed to be a Republic not a Democracy and the vote is supposed to muted somewhat to avoid violation of the rights of minority opinoion . The main problem is that we have a Two Party State and if we would allow some more parties to be on the ballot then our voting participation would be higher. Until this is corrected having a mandatory vote in the USA would not be any different than those totalitarian One Party governments that also require the vote.
 

PeteEU

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The GOP is not a libertarian party?

yes it is.... in many many ways. It has just been corrupted by the religious right. It is funny how people were GOP under Bush but when the **** hit the fan, then suddenly they were Tea Party or Libertarian all of a sudden.... same thing, different name.
 

PeteEU

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The United States of America is supposed to be a Republic not a Democracy and the vote is supposed to muted somewhat to avoid violation of the rights of minority opinoion .

God.. not this again. A Republic is a democracy. One man, one vote and all that jazz.

The main problem is that we have a Two Party State and if we would allow some more parties to be on the ballot then our voting participation would be higher.

Yes that is a problem, but not the main problem.. the main problem is that politics is a business that is very profitable for those involved.. there is simply way too much money involved to get elected. What was it last time.. 4 billion dollars for President alone?

Until this is corrected having a mandatory vote in the USA would not be any different than those totalitarian One Party governments that also require the vote.

Disagree. There is a possibility of more parties... in a one party government and regime there is not.
 

Quag

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mandatory voting is pointless youll just get a bunch of uninformed uncaring people doing something because they are forced to. I would rather have people involved and informed, work on that but mandatory never!
 

radcen

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God.. not this again. A Republic is a democracy. One man, one vote and all that jazz.
You vote for a person to represent your (or, your geographic area's) interests. You have no guarantee whatsoever that said representative will vote on bills the way you want. That's the difference between a the US system and a direct democracy.
 

radcen

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mandatory voting is pointless youll just get a bunch of uninformed uncaring people doing something because they are forced to. I would rather have people involved and informed, work on that but mandatory never!
...and we have too many of those people as it is.
 

Shadow Serious

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God.. not this again. A Republic is a democracy. One man, one vote and all that jazz.

The USA has a Republic in the form of a limited Democracy. They are not the same creature overall.




Yes that is a problem, but not the main problem.. the main problem is that politics is a business that is very profitable for those involved.. there is simply way too much money involved to get elected. What was it last time.. 4 billion dollars for President alone?

The issue of money is not the main problem since the money is used to get the proponents message out the issue is getting the attention of the potential voters and in most cases that would require money to do so. Also keep in mind that the election of the President of a country with the population close to that of the European Community and which also has more member States would not be surprising that it would cost as much as it does. If we would have a mandatory caucus system for Parties in the States instead of Primaries by registered (party affiliation included) voters and would simply allow multiple parties instead of just the two parties would lower the cost and make it more manageable.



Disagree. There is a possibility of more parties... in a one party government and regime there is not.

Most states it is middling difficult to get a Third Party on the Ballot and even more difficult to manage to keep it on the ballot for the next election. Some States like my home state it is very difficult to get recognized for one election and the bar is set high to keep recognition so the Third Parties spend most of their time and effort AND MONEY just to get recognized in the first place only to have to go over again since recognition does not carry over to the next election. In my State the bar set is that a candidate must get 10% of the vote in a Statewide election so if a Party had a good show with several candidates getting say 30% for State offices but not Statewide then that is not good enough.
 
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OhIsee.Then

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OK. I don't have to vote in this poll. It's turning out just like I thought it would.
 

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yes it is.... in many many ways. It has just been corrupted by the religious right. It is funny how people were GOP under Bush but when the **** hit the fan, then suddenly they were Tea Party or Libertarian all of a sudden.... same thing, different name.

The GOP has a long-standing libertarian tradition. Not a radical one, but somewhere along the lines of the German FDP, or perhaps your Venstre ("Venstre"?! ...so much for semantics ;) ).

But it also was the home of socialist-in-all-but-the-name Progressives, and it is now the home of religious statists and "pragmatic pro-business types" who are perfectly comfortable with corporate welfare, ridiculous defense budgets, etc.

Our parties are not really parties in the European sense - they are electoral coalitions. Differences "within" are often more significant than differences "between".

In any case, the deficit-spending, social-engineering, civil-rights-violating Bush administration was not "libertarian" by any stretch of imagination. Unfortunately, what came to replace it doesn't seem to be any better.
 
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obvious Child

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Individually? Doesn't matter.

Aside from a handful of local elections throughout US history, 1 vote never mattered.

In terms of civic principle, super important. But I tend to side with the math.
 

Master PO

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Voting should be mandatory for all citizens that can legally vote. What is the point of having a democracy if people dont vote or participate.. then we might as well have kept our kings/queens/emperors.

voting was not a right under the founders it was a privilege, you own land, you pay taxes, you can vote, otherwise you cant, last.........america is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic with republican form of government with a mixed constitution.
 

radcen

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voting was not a right under the founders it was a privilege, you own land, you pay taxes, you can vote, otherwise you cant, last.........america is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic with republican form of government with a mixed constitution.
Proof that, as wise as they were, even they had boneheaded ideas at times.
 

Dittohead not!

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voting was not a right under the founders it was a privilege, you own land, you pay taxes, you can vote, otherwise you cant, last.........america is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic with republican form of government with a mixed constitution.

you own land, you pay taxes, you're a white male, and you can vote
 

Master PO

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you own land, you pay taxes, you're a white male, and you can vote


no mention of race, age or gender in the regulation of voting.

the simple principle is the founders wanted people who had a stake in america.

question, if you dont pay taxes, do you care if they are raised...........no... you could care less because your not paying.

do you care if government waste tax money, ...no ....because its not your money.
 

Dittohead not!

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no mention of race, age or gender in the regulation of voting.

the simple principle is the founders wanted people who had a stake in america.

question, if you dont pay taxes, do you care if they are raised...........no... you could care less because your not paying.

do you care if government waste tax money, ...no ....because its not your money.

The fact of the matter is that women didn't get the right to vote until well into the 20th. century, and that they were not allowed to own property back in the 18th.

Moreover, no one whose ancestry was other than European was allowed to vote at the beginning of the republic.
 

Master PO

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Proof that, as wise as they were, even they had boneheaded ideas at times.

The right of suffrage is a fundamental Article in Republican Constitutions. The regulation of it is, at the same time, a task of peculiar delicacy. Allow the right exclusively to property, and the rights of persons may be oppressed. The feudal polity alone sufficiently proves it. Extend it equally to all, and the rights of property or the claims of justice may be overruled by a majority without property, or interested in measures of injustice. Of this abundant proof is afforded by other popular Govts. and is not without examples in our own, particularly in the laws impairing the obligation of contracts.-- james madison

i have read early American court cases ,where people have sued because they could not vote, in one ruling the judge said flat out....." you sold your land, and your not paying taxes anymore, so you have no vote"
 
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Master PO

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The fact of the matter is that women didn't get the right to vote until well into the 20th. century, and that they were not allowed to own property back in the 18th.

Moreover, no one whose ancestry was other than European was allowed to vote at the beginning of the republic.

and over time that has changed has it not? because the constitution has changed.

but the difference is, they wanted people who had a stake in america, be it any race, or sex, those again are not part of the founders ideas.

remember it is having a stake in america that is the key!
 

radcen

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no mention of race, age or gender in the regulation of voting.

the simple principle is the founders wanted people who had a stake in america.

question, if you dont pay taxes, do you care if they are raised...........no... you could care less because your not paying.

do you care if government waste tax money, ...no ....because its not your money.
Yes, that's the self-serving rationalization. It all comes down to "my money" so I want to make sure that only people who are most likely to be like-minded get to have a say. Of course it's spun differently, but that's essentially the mindset.

Fact is, everybody has a stake, everybody pays either directly or indirectly, and everybody is affected by the results. Money (read: wealth in money, land, privilege, etc.) is not, nor should be, the sole criteria. IF they could shield those who didn't pay/vote from the ramifications of the decisions being made, there might be some legitimacy behind it.
 

Dittohead not!

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and over time that has changed has it not? because the constitution has changed.

but the difference is, they wanted people who had a stake in america, be it any race, or sex, those again are not part of the founders ideas.

remember it is having a stake in america that is the key!

Is there any citizen of this nation who doesn't have a stake in America?
 
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