How Flynn can still win his case.

[Athanasius68]

Sullivan's issue is contempt and/or perjury by Flynn... Sullivan can certainly order the DOJ to appear at hearing and explain themselves before issuing a ruling on their motion to dismiss. If they don't show up, they themselves would be in contempt.

Could be.
But that is not what the OP was talking about.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Flynn needs to be sentenced for the crimes he pleaded guilty to. If there is new evidence that exonerates Flynn, let him take it up on appeal. Then let him and the prosecutors face the charges of perjury and suborning perjury. Nobody has clean hands and all need to be held accountable for deceiving the court.

 

[Athanasius68]

Flynn needs to be sentenced for the crimes he pleaded guilty to. If there is new evidence that exonerates Flynn, let him take it up on appeal. Then let him and the prosecutors face the charges of perjury and suborning perjury. Nobody has clean hands and all need to be held accountable for deceiving the court.

Why on appeal? The prosecutor is saying we wish to end this travesty of justice now-- not later. What's that old saying 'Justice delayed is justice denied.'

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Why on appeal? The prosecutor is saying we wish to end this travesty of justice now-- not later. What's that old saying 'Justice delayed is justice denied.'

And you support everyone just walking away like it never happened? Lie to the judge and let's just be done with it.

Flynn pleaded guilty. He needs to be sentenced.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Why on appeal? The prosecutor is saying we wish to end this travesty of justice now-- not later. What's that old saying 'Justice delayed is justice denied.'

We doubt the prosecutors' motivations are noble. Flynn is a Trump loyalist and the DOJ may very well be trying to reward him for his loyalty. The right way to proceed is for Flynn to be sentenced, then his defense team appeals and they can, if they like, bring out all the exculpatory evidence that clearly demonstrates that Flynn never lied to the FBI. Then the judge can charge Flynn with perjury because he lied to the court when he falsely, with the cooperation of the DOJ lawyers, allocuted the crimes to which he pleaded guilty. Then Flynn can name names as to whom in the DOJ convinced him to lie to the court. The judge can then have them charged with suborning perjury if Flynn's testimony is credible.

Justice my ass! Somebody somewhere is ****ing lying their ass off and Sullivan needs to get to bottom of this.

 

[Athanasius68]

And you support everyone just walking away like it never happened? Lie to the judge and let's just be done with it.

Flynn pleaded guilty. He needs to be sentenced.

What "lie" to the judge?
Flynn was told the evidence showed he mislead the FBI which in turn had a material effect upon the investigation. He was then offered a deal and took it.

Subsequently, evidence has been discovered that showed there was no legitimate investigation, thus his statements was not material to anything. Evidence was also discovered that indicated the FBI agents thought he had been truthful. At that point, the evidence doesn't support the allegation that he materially misled the FBI, it shows the opposite, and thus the DOJ moves to drop the charges.

Perjury has to be a deliberate statement with knowledge of the lie. With respect to Flynn, his statement can hardly be with knowledge as he simply followed what the DOJ has told him.

 

[Athanasius68]

We doubt the prosecutors' motivations are noble. Flynn is a Trump loyalist and the DOJ may very well be trying to reward him for his loyalty. The right way to proceed is for Flynn to be sentenced, then his defense team appeals and they can, if they like, bring out all the exculpatory evidence that clearly demonstrates that Flynn never lied to the FBI. Then the judge can charge Flynn with perjury because he lied to the court when he falsely, with the cooperation of the DOJ lawyers, allocuted the crimes to which he pleaded guilty. Then Flynn can name names as to whom in the DOJ convinced him to lie to the court. The judge can then have them charged with suborning perjury if Flynn's testimony is credible.

Justice my ass! Somebody somewhere is ****ing lying their ass off and Sullivan needs to get to bottom of this.

The people who had said that Flynn was part of a Trump campaign conspiracy with Russia to fix the 2016 election are about the closest ones who are are perhaps "****ing lying in their ass off"-- about the conspiracy in general and Flynn's tole in it. I don't think Sullivan is about to follow Mueller, The House and the Senate into investigating this. Durham is doing that.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

What "lie" to the judge?
Flynn was told the evidence showed he mislead the FBI which in turn had a material effect upon the investigation. He was then offered a deal and took it.

Subsequently, evidence has been discovered that showed there was no legitimate investigation, thus his statements was not material to anything. Evidence was also discovered that indicated the FBI agents thought he had been truthful. At that point, the evidence doesn't support the allegation that he materially misled the FBI, it shows the opposite, and thus the DOJ moves to drop the charges.

Perjury has to be a deliberate statement with knowledge of the lie. With respect to Flynn, his statement can hardly be with knowledge as he simply followed what the DOJ has told him.

Sorry, you're wrong. Flynn stood up in court and detailed the actions he agreed to with the DOJ. He knew that he had not taken those actions (if he is to be believed today) and yet he stated under oath that he had in fact done what he was accused of. To knowingly state something in court under oath that you know to be false is the definition of perjury. What you are saying is Flynn articulated details of crimes he didn't commit and he did not know that he had not done them. And he did this with the full knowledge and encouragement of the DOJ.

Then AG Barr, newly appointed, steps in and makes the DOJ drop the case. And we are to believe that what Trump's lapdog did was not politically motivated.

And everyone should now just walk away like it never happened.

 

[BlueTex]

Sorry, you're wrong. Flynn stood up in court and detailed the actions he agreed to with the DOJ. He knew that he had not taken those actions (if he is to be believed today) and yet he stated under oath that he had in fact done what he was accused of. To knowingly state something in court under oath that you know to be false is the definition of perjury. What you are saying is Flynn articulated details of crimes he didn't commit and he did not know that he had not done them. And he did this with the full knowledge and encouragement of the DOJ.

Then AG Barr, newly appointed, steps in and makes the DOJ drop the case. And we are to believe that what Trump's lapdog did was not politically motivated.

And everyone should now just walk away like it never happened.

I'm pretty sure Sullivan will have Brandon Van Grack appear and explain why he withdrew from the Flynn case...

 

[Stealers Wheel]

I'm pretty sure Sullivan will have Brandon Van Grack appear and explain why he withdrew from the Flynn case...

Frankly, I don't care whether Flynn walks or not, but I want the truth to come out. Somebody was behind the misleading of the court. That has to be dealt with.

 

[cabse5]

Same question to you. Have you lied to the FBI and then pled guilty to it yet this week?

If I were to be interviewed by the the FBI, I'd get a lawyer. No matter what they said.

 

[Helix]

If I were to be interviewed by the the FBI, I'd get a lawyer. No matter what they said.

that would be a wise decision.

 

[Athanasius68]

Sorry, you're wrong. Flynn stood up in court and detailed the actions he agreed to with the DOJ.

Yes-- the DOJ said this is what had happened. He agreed.

He knew that he had not taken those actions (if he is to be believed today) and yet he stated under oath that he had in fact done what he was accused of. To knowingly state something in court under oath that you know to be false is the definition of perjury.

Well, on that vein, Flynn never saw the transcripts of the conversation until recently. Nowhere in it does it discuss sanctions. So maybe he would not have pled guilty had seen the actual evidence.
Or maybe the DOJ would have been unable to prosecute and thus offer a plea deal.

What you are saying is Flynn articulated details of crimes he didn't commit and he did not know that he had not done them.

Part of the crime for which Flynn was charged requires the statement made to be "material" to the government function. The DOJ said it was "material" and Flynn accepted their argument. He pled guilty. He had no way to dispute it.
Subsequent evidence released shows the information was not "material" to anything. Thus, the charges were dropped.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Yes-- the DOJ said this is what had happened. He agreed.



Well, on that vein, Flynn never saw the transcripts of the conversation until recently. Nowhere in it does it discuss sanctions. So maybe he would not have pled guilty had seen the actual evidence.
Or maybe the DOJ would have been unable to prosecute and thus offer a plea deal.



Part of the crime for which Flynn was charged requires the statement made to be "material" to the government function. The DOJ said it was "material" and Flynn accepted their argument. He pled guilty. He had no way to dispute it.
Subsequent evidence released shows the information was not "material" to anything. Thus, the charges were dropped.

Again, this has to play out. We need to know how it was that Flynn was convinced his best option was to plead guilty when the DOJ that prosecuted him, convinced him to agree to lie to the court (knowingly or otherwise). And further, at some point Flynn had legal counsel. What was their take on Flynn taking the stand and committing perjury? Was everyone in the room in on the deception except the judge?

The argument that one can lie to the FBI as long as it is not "material" is ludicrous. "Yes, I lied to the FBI, but it doesn't matter because it turned out not to be material to their investigation. Therefore my lies don't matter."

 

[Athanasius68]

Again, this has to play out. We need to know how it was that Flynn was convinced his best option was to plead guilty when the DOJ that prosecuted him, convinced him to agree to lie to the court (knowingly or otherwise). And further, at some point Flynn had legal counsel. What was their take on Flynn taking the stand and committing perjury? Was everyone in the room in on the deception except the judge?

What constitutes "misleading" or "perjury" is what the the state thinks. The FBI agents who interviewed Flynn didn't think he lied, and Comey saw no counter-intelligence threat or criminal activity by Flynn with his conversation with Kisylak. Mueller however turned the screws over the same documents.
Its a matter of perception.
I do not know why Flynn's original lawyers never demanded to see the 302's or the transcripts. Flynn's no lawyer so he probably took their advice.

The argument that one can lie to the FBI as long as it is not "material" is ludicrous. "Yes, I lied to the FBI, but it doesn't matter because it turned out not to be material to their investigation. Therefore my lies don't matter."

That is the law. Its not ludicrous at all-- it protects people who might forget facts, leave things out ect that have no bearing on whatever it is the government is investigatong-- or any government official actually in their execution of their duty whatever that may be The law doesn't specify the FBI.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Interesting thing, so you would approve a Biden DoJ just not having a prosecutor show up for ANYTHING that is partisan. Good call. Do you realize what a corrupt form of justice you are advocating?

It's folks like you who are actually ADVOCATING for a Banana Republic.

They're too short-sighted to think that far. They deserve some sort of Hugo Chavez liberal. They're creating a world where an authoritarian socialist populist can rule with absolute power.