How far away are we from not using oil, coal, and nuclear and instead ethanol, wind, and solar?

[Moderate71]

Hell, make vodka with it and sell it to the Russians! Burning corn is flatout stupid. They have been trying to get alcohol out of cellulose, but i haven’t been hearing much about that lately.

Sugar Cane is better for ethanol than corn is. I took a trip near a beautiful town called Emberass in Northern Minnesota and some of the small towns around there look pretty sparsely populated with some swamps and I saw a lot of land not being farmed. Swamps are good for Sugar Cane. We could start Sugar Cane farms there for Ethanol production.

 

[UtahBill]

Sugar Cane is better for ethanol than corn is. I took a trip near a beautiful town called Emberass in Northern Minnesota and some of the small towns around there look pretty sparsely populated with some swamps and I saw a lot of land not being farmed. Swamps are good for Sugar Cane. We could start Sugar Cane farms there for Ethanol production.

Will it grow that far north?

 

[UtahBill]

Ethanol damages engines. Delivery of wind powered submarines and airplanes is behind schedule.

Ethanol works in fuel injected engines, but use a carburetor and you get a big messy glob of gunk in the fuel bowl.....Brazil has all that figured out since they have tons of sugar cane wastes to use.

 

[holbritter]

It's getting there. We're about at the point where VCR's were in the late-1970's, when a decent VCR was still around three or four hundred bucks. Even though you could get a base model for 200, it was crap and not worth getting.

By the late 1980's even a good VCR was in the 250 dollar range.
This is technology, every year is a decade.

Wish it would hurry up. I'd love to go off grid, but I can't afford to make it happen right now.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Build on location is the standard mode, moving buildings is very difficult.

Yes for large systems that is obviously the thing to do.

The model I am pursuing, slowly, is to have a unit which will produce 6kW which will 90% be transported as a whole unit and errected on site in a day.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Wish it would hurry up. I'd love to go off grid, but I can't afford to make it happen right now.

Most conventional residential solar systems aren't totally "off grid" because they do not have energy storage, thus they are "grid tied" so the system is providing enough power to go off grid while the sun shines. Since most people do not use very much electricity late at night, at least not compared to what they use during the day, your primary utility consumption is during off-peak hours, and your consumption in the daytime is either zero, or maybe "in the minus" territory where, in a lot of areas, you are selling power BACK to the utility.

The solar install companies generally LEASE you the system for 20-25 years with a very low monthly price, which is a lot lower than your current electric utility bill, and they lock you in with that low monthly rate. Thus, you are effectively paying NOTHING for the installation itself, and between the lease payment and the drastically lower bill, you are saving an enormous amount on your electricity costs.

If you live in an area with net metering and the right state laws, the utility may even have to pay you for the excess power you are selling back to them, which lowers your bill even further.

So you might want to look into it, because it might be more affordable than you think.
And, you can always add a storage system later in most cases, which would enable you to go completely off grid.

 

[holbritter]

Most conventional residential solar systems aren't totally "off grid" because they do not have energy storage, thus they are "grid tied" so the system is providing enough power to go off grid while the sun shines. Since most people do not use very much electricity late at night, at least not compared to what they use during the day, your primary utility consumption is during off-peak hours, and your consumption in the daytime is either zero, or maybe "in the minus" territory where, in a lot of areas, you are selling power BACK to the utility.

The solar install companies generally LEASE you the system for 20-25 years with a very low monthly price, which is a lot lower than your current electric utility bill, and they lock you in with that low monthly rate. Thus, you are effectively paying NOTHING for the installation itself, and between the lease payment and the drastically lower bill, you are saving an enormous amount on your electricity costs.

If you live in an area with net metering and the right state laws, the utility may even have to pay you for the excess power you are selling back to them, which lowers your bill even further.

So you might want to look into it, because it might be more affordable than you think.
And, you can always add a storage system later in most cases, which would enable you to go completely off grid.

Thanks for the info. I'm not interested in leasing the system, since they insisted the panels be mounted on the roof. I don't want that, plus I don't want to be locked into payments that will last longer than my mortgage.

 

[Bullseye]

Most conventional residential solar systems aren't totally "off grid" because they do not have energy storage, thus they are "grid tied" so the system is providing enough power to go off grid while the sun shines. Since most people do not use very much electricity late at night, at least not compared to what they use during the day, your primary utility consumption is during off-peak hours, and your consumption in the daytime is either zero, or maybe "in the minus" territory where, in a lot of areas, you are selling power BACK to the utility.

The solar install companies generally LEASE you the system for 20-25 years with a very low monthly price, which is a lot lower than your current electric utility bill, and they lock you in with that low monthly rate. Thus, you are effectively paying NOTHING for the installation itself, and between the lease payment and the drastically lower bill, you are saving an enormous amount on your electricity costs.

If you live in an area with net metering and the right state laws, the utility may even have to pay you for the excess power you are selling back to them, which lowers your bill even further.

So you might want to look into it, because it might be more affordable than you think.
And, you can always add a storage system later in most cases, which would enable you to go completely off grid.

I looked into solar several years ago but the break even point was 15-17 years even with a fairly high monthly bill

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Thanks for the info. I'm not interested in leasing the system, since they insisted the panels be mounted on the roof. I don't want that, plus I don't want to be locked into payments that will last longer than my mortgage.

Where else would you put them? If you have a vast expanse of land, put them there. If you have a carport or detached garage, put some of them there. Plus, the lease payments are flexible.
You have nothing to lose by talking to someone in the profession.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I looked into solar several years ago but the break even point was 15-17 years even with a fairly high monthly bill

Not bad, we're probably going to do something like that.

 

[holbritter]

Where else would you put them? If you have a vast expanse of land, put them there. If you have a carport or detached garage, put some of them there. Plus, the lease payments are flexible.
You have nothing to lose by talking to someone in the profession.

I do have some land, and I want a free standing set up that moves as the sun does. My neighbor has a set up like that, but he paid for it outright when they were giving those big tax credits. And I did call the couple of companies that serve the area and was told they only install on rooftops. My main reason for not leasing is that I don't want the debt.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I do have some land, and I want a free standing set up that moves as the sun does. My neighbor has a set up like that, but he paid for it outright when they were giving those big tax credits. And I did call the couple of companies that serve the area and was told they only install on rooftops. My main reason for not leasing is that I don't want the debt.

You generally do not need the panels to move. The efficiency increase when using residential type panels is not worth the extra money needed for controllers and positioning motors. This is only feasible if you're a commercial power provider using industrial grade panels which are much more expensive. (for a reason)

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

All SILICON type PV panels work in roughly the same fashion however industrial grade panels that are used with sun positioning motors, software and controllers differ somewhat.

They HAVE to be used with positioning equipment because their efficiency drops off a lot when the sun is hitting them at an angle. But when the positioning equipment points them at the sun DIRECTLY, their efficiency skyrockets. Also, those types of panels are several orders of magnitude more long lived and more durable. They are designed to focus the rays of DIRECT sunlight at maximum efficiency, and they have thicker and more durable glass panels, which makes them a lot heavier, too.

If you and maybe ten nearby neighbors were to pool resources and form an ad hoc power coop, you could purchase a large installation of this type and even explore state subsidies, if any exist in New Jersey.

Note that one lady in the video has a 2.4 kW THIN FILM system which is pretty much "peel and stick".

 

[Moderate71]

Will it grow that far north?

It gets over 70 degrees there from June-August on a regular basis, even over 80 on occasion. It's actually somewhat rare for it to get below freezing in the three growing months between June-August. It got to 98 degrees once in July 2006. The point is that Sugar Cane grows in swamps, and while it might be a bit of a stretch to call the swamps in northern Minnesota tropical, crops can be grown there.

Here is the weather info. Notice the temperatures in June-August. Those are the ones that matter.

Intellicast - Embarrass Historic Weather Averages in Minnesota (55732)

 

[Tim the plumber]

All SILICON type PV panels work in roughly the same fashion however industrial grade panels that are used with sun positioning motors, software and controllers differ somewhat.

They HAVE to be used with positioning equipment because their efficiency drops off a lot when the sun is hitting them at an angle. But when the positioning equipment points them at the sun DIRECTLY, their efficiency skyrockets. Also, those types of panels are several orders of magnitude more long lived and more durable. They are designed to focus the rays of DIRECT sunlight at maximum efficiency, and they have thicker and more durable glass panels, which makes them a lot heavier, too.

If you and maybe ten nearby neighbors were to pool resources and form an ad hoc power coop, you could purchase a large installation of this type and even explore state subsidies, if any exist in New Jersey.

Note that one lady in the video has a 2.4 kW THIN FILM system which is pretty much "peel and stick".

You will know when it is a good investment decision that will actully make sense to the accountant when it is not a load of hippies talking about communities but business doing it to make money.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You will know when it is a good investment decision that will actully make sense to the accountant when it is not a load of hippies talking about communities but business doing it to make money.

Very funny for you to refer to neighborbood coops as hippies, but this isn't the 1960's anymore. Power coops are useful anywhere where there is adequate sun and enough people who don't like how high their bills from the central utility company are.

The people in the video I offered aren't hippies.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Very funny for you to refer to neighborbood coops as hippies, but this isn't the 1960's anymore. Power coops are useful anywhere where there is adequate sun and enough people who don't like how high their bills from the central utility company are.

The people in the video I offered aren't hippies.

If it made sense commercially it would be done commercally.

It is not being done like that for a reason.

 

[UtahBill]

It gets over 70 degrees there from June-August on a regular basis, even over 80 on occasion. It's actually somewhat rare for it to get below freezing in the three growing months between June-August. It got to 98 degrees once in July 2006. The point is that Sugar Cane grows in swamps, and while it might be a bit of a stretch to call the swamps in northern Minnesota tropical, crops can be grown there.

Here is the weather info. Notice the temperatures in June-August. Those are the ones that matter.

Intellicast - Embarrass Historic Weather Averages in Minnesota (55732)

Growing season is the key, needs 12 to 16 months. and sugar cane requires a lot of water without drowning the roots...season is 12 to 16 months....
Now, if you want to find an easy crop for MN, try mosquitoes...

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

If it made sense commercially it would be done commercally.

It is not being done like that for a reason.

I already described how commercial/industrial power is done.
I don't think you're very aware of how widespread the coop idea is.
I also get the impression that you might not be well informed on solar in general.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Growing season is the key, needs 12 to 16 months. and sugar cane requires a lot of water without drowning the roots...season is 12 to 16 months....
Now, if you want to find an easy crop for MN, try mosquitoes...

When I first mentioned growing sugar cane, I was talking about the Delta region, not MN.
Sugar cane would most definitely grow in the Delta region.

 

[UtahBill]

About 10 years ago, when we lived in AZ, some company put in a large solar system next to a convenient access to the grid and an existing peaking plant and in a farming area, on short poles. A few years later, it was gone, somebody bought it..

Anyway, it seems to me that hot and dry locations could do double duty next to farmland. Mount the panels on taller poles so farm critters can have some shade. Lots of places I have traveled in the southwest have cattle and horses crowding each other under he one tree per acre that they can find.

 

[UtahBill]

When I first mentioned growing sugar cane, I was talking about the Delta region, not MN.
Sugar cane would most definitely grow in the Delta region.

and they do, but it isn't a good cash crop. I grew up in SE Texas where you can find small patches of cane in the neighbor's yards. Occasionally, a banana tree....
I suspect that labor costs were the problem....we didn't have starving peasants in the numbers needed. Nowadays the pollution from burning the leaves off would choke Houston residents to death.
https://ipmdata.ipmcenters.org/documents/cropprofiles/TXsugarcane.pdf

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

and they do, but it isn't a good cash crop. I grew up in SE Texas where you can find small patches of cane in the neighbor's yards. Occasionally, a banana tree....
I suspect that labor costs were the problem....we didn't have starving peasants in the numbers needed. Nowadays the pollution from burning the leaves off would choke Houston residents to death.
https://ipmdata.ipmcenters.org/documents/cropprofiles/TXsugarcane.pdf

Yes very true, they have to pay field workers a bit more up here. And it would only BE a good cash crop if ethanol from CORN wasn't already subsidized to begin with. If corn ethanol wasn't being subsidized you'd see mile after mile of cane fields down South, but apparently the corn farmers beat everyone to the punch.

So...cane COULD be a good cash crop if it had the same subsidy advantage that corn has.
By the way, we would probably be using a lot more modern tech to harvest it in the US. In Brazil, it is probably too much of a capital investment when field labor is so cheap.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

About 10 years ago, when we lived in AZ, some company put in a large solar system next to a convenient access to the grid and an existing peaking plant and in a farming area, on short poles. A few years later, it was gone, somebody bought it..

Anyway, it seems to me that hot and dry locations could do double duty next to farmland. Mount the panels on taller poles so farm critters can have some shade. Lots of places I have traveled in the southwest have cattle and horses crowding each other under he one tree per acre that they can find.

It is happening but on a small scale. In the Middle East it's going gangbusters. In China, same thing.

 

[polgara]

I looked into solar several years ago but the break even point was 15-17 years even with a fairly high monthly bill

Greetings, Bullseye. :2wave:

I also looked into solar several years ago and even posted the results of that meeting here on DP, since I was somewhat shocked and disappointed at the time. The people you contacted at least discussed the costs of solar with you! When the company I contacted came to meet with me they were very professional and quite nice, but they were also quite honest in explaining that we do not receive sufficient sunshine in this part of NE Ohio to consider going totally solar! I didn't expect to hear that, and after taking the time to explain the reality side of solar to me, I thanked them for their honesty in running their business and yes, I would definitely call them again.