How does Jesus forgive us for all of our sins by dying on the cross.

[BCR]

This was something I always asked myself when I still believed back in early high school. I never did ask anyone else though, I was to embarrassed to. Know that I think about it, I realize, it makes very little sense. How does the supposed "Son of God" dying on a couple pieces of wood= Salvation for humanity.

 

[Jerry]

This was something I always asked myself when I still believed back in early high school. I never did ask anyone else though, I was to embarrassed to. Know that I think about it, I realize, it makes very little sense. How does the supposed "Son of God" dying on a couple pieces of wood= Salvation for humanity.

He basically bought up our debt to biblical law, and then told us we don't have to reimburse him for it so long as we try as best we can to be good.

 

[X Factor]

Because our God is a just God. He cannot overlook sin, so to satisfy justice He could do two things; either let us bear the punishment of our sin ourselves, which would be justice, or He could let someone else take our place. If it's the latter, then that Person had to be sinless, otherwise He would just be getting what He deserved instead of taking our punishment upon Himself as He did. This is how I understand it anyway.

 

[Befuddled_Stoner]

It’s a scam based around the Door-In-The-Face Technique. First they make absurdly grandiose claims that everybody rejects outright. While your mind is still zoomed out to encompass how absurd “Eternity in Hell just for being born” sounds, they slip in the much smaller possibility of “Lifelong fealty.” This looks much more reasonable because your brain is still focused on the cosmic scale of their first proposal's stupidity. Before you even realize that you never signed up for their optional services in the first place, they’ve already talked you into making weekly payments.

When you finally realize their services are of extremely dubious value, they rely on the Sunk-Costs Dilemma to make you think “Gee, I’ve already dumped so many resources into this. I’d hate to think that all that time and money went to waste.” And so you keep on throwing good money after bad in the vague hope that this isn’t just some sort of centuries old ploy designed to empower and enrich a bunch of pederasts.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

This was something I always asked myself when I still believed back in early high school. I never did ask anyone else though, I was to embarrassed to. Know that I think about it, I realize, it makes very little sense. How does the supposed "Son of God" dying on a couple pieces of wood= Salvation for humanity.

It doesn't.
the Bible is a collection of mankinds best attempts ot control others and manipulate the masses - and it works because people let it work.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

This was something I always asked myself when I still believed back in early high school. I never did ask anyone else though, I was to embarrassed to. Know that I think about it, I realize, it makes very little sense. How does the supposed "Son of God" dying on a couple pieces of wood= Salvation for humanity.

It doesnt make sense. Precisely.

:2cents:

 

[Panache]

Well, you see, mankind was under God's wrath, which is to say that God was angry. But Jesus lived a sinless life (Jesus was God by the way) and sacrificed himself to appease God's wrath, so that we could be forgiven.

So, essentially, God was angry with us, so he sacrificed Himself to Himself and was so pleased with His own ability to follow His own rules, and was further pleased by the aroma of His own death, that he decided not to be angry with us anymore.

See? It makes sense.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Well, you see, mankind was under God's wrath, which is to say that God was angry. But Jesus lived a sinless life (Jesus was God by the way) and sacrificed himself to appease God's wrath, so that we could be forgiven.

So, essentially, God was angry with us, so he sacrificed Himself to Himself and was so pleased with His own ability to follow His own rules, and was further pleased by the aroma of His own death, that he decided not to be angry with us anymore.

See? It makes sense.

God needs to stop bottling up his emotions. It's bad for his health.

 

[cpwill]

It doesn't.
the Bible is a collection of mankinds best attempts ot control others and manipulate the masses - and it works because people let it work.

:lamo and that, no doubt, was why it's authors were so noted for their political power?

nothing says "Iron Hand Ruling The Masses" like getting yourself beaten, starved, jailed, and tortured to death.

look, i'm all for honest theological criticism. but "the bible is just a book of social controoolll, maaaannnn" claim belongs in conversations punctuated by heavy drags on a doobie; not anywhere marked by critical thinking.

 

[cpwill]

This was something I always asked myself when I still believed back in early high school. I never did ask anyone else though, I was to embarrassed to. Know that I think about it, I realize, it makes very little sense. How does the supposed "Son of God" dying on a couple pieces of wood= Salvation for humanity.

Good Question.


Biblical Answer?



(wait for it....)



we're not quite sure.



No really, we're not. Paul's letters suggest that somehow Jesus was a second Adam; that the two (a fall of a former sinless being into death, the death of a still sinless being) somehow mirror each other. The author of Hebrews suggested that Jesus was like a Chief Priest, engaging in a sacrifice for the people - but given that the worth of the sacrifice was infinite, so was the redemption. and so on and so forth. It's an event beyond human capability to understand in it's fullness; a Holy Mystery in many ways.

Sort of like Gravity. We have no idea why gravity works, or even really how it works; why mass would automatically be attracted to mass isn't something we have a real clear-cut answer for. But we can observe it, and we know it to be true. Forgiveness and welcome into the Grace and Presence of God is like that. How does it happen? I have no friggin clue. But I know that it does because I have Been There, and the experience is at once more Real and more Ethereal than anything else I have ever encountered.

 

[molten_dragon]

Sort of like Gravity. We have no idea why gravity works, or even really how it works; why mass would automatically be attracted to mass isn't something we have a real clear-cut answer for. But we can observe it, and we know it to be true. Forgiveness and welcome into the Grace and Presence of God is like that. How does it happen? I have no friggin clue. But I know that it does because I have Been There, and the experience is at once more Real and more Ethereal than anything else I have ever encountered.

The main difference here though, is that everyone can observe gravity functioning. Not everyone experiences God's forgiveness and love.

To answer the OP's question. Assuming any of it is actually true, then in my opinion, it works because God says so. He's the one saying we're damned to hell for our sins in the first place, so if he wants to let us off the hook because Jesus died, then who's going to argue with him?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

This was something I always asked myself when I still believed back in early high school. I never did ask anyone else though, I was to embarrassed to. Know that I think about it, I realize, it makes very little sense. How does the supposed "Son of God" dying on a couple pieces of wood= Salvation for humanity.

Its called scapegoating, and its immoral tripe.

Original sin is utter nonsense, there is no morality outside of the sphere of choice, and to suggest so is a mockery of morality. To be considered a criminal without having committed any crime is a mockery of justice.

We had no original sin, that scapegoat's death did nothing.

 

[MaggieD]

This was something I always asked myself when I still believed back in early high school. I never did ask anyone else though, I was to embarrassed to. Know that I think about it, I realize, it makes very little sense. How does the supposed "Son of God" dying on a couple pieces of wood= Salvation for humanity.

I had a lot of trouble with that as well. It's what made me rethink the whole paradigm.

What kind of God would say, "Ya' know what? In order for any of you mortals to be saved, I'm going to have to crucify my son. Otherwise? Burn in hell."

Just doesn't wash. I believe in all paths to God. Live a good life and, if there is a hereafter, you'll have a place there.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Good Question.


Biblical Answer?



(wait for it....)



we're not quite sure.



No really, we're not. Paul's letters suggest that somehow Jesus was a second Adam; that the two (a fall of a former sinless being into death, the death of a still sinless being) somehow mirror each other. The author of Hebrews suggested that Jesus was like a Chief Priest, engaging in a sacrifice for the people - but given that the worth of the sacrifice was infinite, so was the redemption. and so on and so forth. It's an event beyond human capability to understand in it's fullness; a Holy Mystery in many ways.

Sort of like Gravity. We have no idea why gravity works, or even really how it works; why mass would automatically be attracted to mass isn't something we have a real clear-cut answer for. But we can observe it, and we know it to be true. Forgiveness and welcome into the Grace and Presence of God is like that. How does it happen? I have no friggin clue. But I know that it does because I have Been There, and the experience is at once more Real and more Ethereal than anything else I have ever encountered.

Looking at the history of the Bible, who put it together and who lived by it and what it has been used for - honestly - you think it's absurd to suggest that it's used to control others?

That's all it's used for.

That's all I did to my family - my parents used it as a means to control us when we weren't around. The whole 'God is watching' and 'he knows what you're doing' like he was some sort of Pedo peeking in the windows. My parents have dedicate their lives to following Christ and preaching and converting the masses.

It is all manipulation - mental, emotional manipulation. You can look to other religions for example if you don't want to dismiss your own beliefs. Do you feel that someone with a different belief isnt showing signs of subjugation and a lack of freedom via the grip their religion has on them? Look at suicide bombers - they believe they're doing a positive thing and going to be rewarded for it in their afterlife. My sister tells stories of the crucifixion to her kids at bedtime and amassed their mind with beliefs that "God sent the sign of the rainbow as a promise that he'll never destroy the earth again." Today in our scientifically rounded advanced society we still have people by the millions believing fables of parthenogenesis and the resurrection and they use their biblical interpretations to govern who and what they vote for on voting day.

That's not manipulative to you?

That's ALL it is - control and manipulation of the masses and many permit it willingly and happily and are so offended at the suggestion that they'll wage a fight on a street corner to defend their inanity.

The underlying sentiment from people is "you are not good enough as you are . . . you must push yourself ot be something you are not" - and it's sad to see it still happening in today's modernized culture on such a vast scale.

 

[scourge99]

How does Jesus forgive us for all of our sins by dying on the cross.

we're not quite sure.

Then why should anyone believe it?

No really, we're not. Paul's letters suggest that somehow Jesus was a second Adam; that the two (a fall of a former sinless being into death, the death of a still sinless being) somehow mirror each other.

Adam was "sinless" too. He had no knowledge of good and evil, remember? Even today we find it immoral to hold people responsible for actions if they can't comprehend the consequences of their actions. Its called the insanity defense. We may lock people up if they show indications that their criminal acts will continue, but we do NOT hold them responsible. Apparently us pitiful, sinful, humans have surpassed the god of the bible in dealing with moral dilemmas such as this.

The author of Hebrews suggested that Jesus was like a Chief Priest, engaging in a sacrifice for the people - but given that the worth of the sacrifice was infinite, so was the redemption.

What was "infinite" about his "sacrifice"? If jesus was to be tormented in hell forever then I might buy it as a sacrifice. But he wasn't. All he did was die a bloody death. There have been countless people who have died far more excruciating deaths and experienced far worse mental anguish than that of the jesus character in the bible.

It's an event beyond human capability to understand in it's fullness; a Holy Mystery in many ways.

Oh, I see. So we can't understand it so we should just blindly accept that its true? Do you believe everyone is so gullible and credulous?

But we can observe it, and we know it to be true. Forgiveness and welcome into the Grace and Presence of God is like that.

please point out where I can observe the grace and Presence of god. Let me guess... You've made an unfalsifiable claim. If I do what you ask and I don't experience what should only be concluded as the "the Grace and Presence of God" then its because I'm doing it wrong or I'm not sincere enough, or my "heart is hardened" or any number of other excuses. Am I right?

But I know that it does because I have Been There, and the experience is at once more Real and more Ethereal than anything else I have ever encountered.

Unless I and others can confirm for ourselves what you claim then there is absolutely zero reason to believe what you say is true. In fact, because so many similar claims by different holybooks/snakeoil-salesmen/prophets have been shown false, we should outright reject your claims until they are demonstrated.

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

God creates man with free-will, with one "death sentence" inducing stipulation

Man defies God and falls under the punishment of death

(behind the scenes: Satan accusing God of ?favoritism? or ?hypocrisy?, dedicates itself to tripping up humanity so God is forced to impose the death sentence (or break his law [not going to happen])

God implements a plan to recover humanity without a "I'm God and win anyway" moment with Satan (the question of universal sovereignty and right-to-rule was brought up by Satan)

Jesus replaces us in the death sentence (the 'last adam')

Man is released from the punishment

Done

- pretty easy to track this one, all of this is scripture supported (and makes sense IMO)

The alternative:

God rages like a child and wipes humanity and Satan, 'above his own law', his righteousness is forever in question.

The real story here is that of Satan, a formerly epic being who found 'iniquity in his heart' - the Bible is simply *enough* for us to understand God's perspective and morality for this time; the real story IMO has not been relayed to us other than in small tidbits. Me-thinks the universe shaking event of Satan's betrayal and God's authority over creation is the REAL issue going on in this universe.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

God creates man with free-will, with one "death sentence" inducing stipulation

Man defies God

(behind the scenes: Satan accusing God of ?favoritism? or ?hypocrisy?, dedicates itself to tripping up humanity so God is forced to impose the death sentence (or break his law [not going to happen])

God implements a plan to recover humanity without a "I'm God and win anyway" moment with Satan (the question of universal sovereignty)

Jesus replaces us in the death sentence

Man is released from the punishment

Done

So - it all started when God ****ed up and game man Free-Will.

Other animals have free-will too, you know.

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

So - it all started when God ****ed up and game man Free-Will.

Other animals have free-will too, you know.

Whats your point? Would you rather us be automotons? What do animals have to do with this?

Think about it for a moment: you create new beings - what do you do?

 

[ADG]

This was something I always asked myself when I still believed back in early high school. I never did ask anyone else though, I was to embarrassed to. Know that I think about it, I realize, it makes very little sense. How does the supposed "Son of God" dying on a couple pieces of wood= Salvation for humanity.

I had the same question in high school, then college, and then in grad school, and on and on and on...

From my study, the story of the crucifixion is a part of a larger mythical allegory designed to teach us what some early Christians referred to as gnosis, and similar to what eastern traditions refer to as enlightenment.

The Jesus story is very similar to other god-man myths of the era. Each story concludes along the same lines with the god-man being sacrificed to appease a father or father figure. In these earlier god-man myths, it was understood by the followers of these religions that the protaganist in question was a myth and not historical. The story, while taking taking from popular historical facts, were allegorical in nature, designed to teach us that man must break from his animal nature in order to reach gnosis.

The Jesus myth was originally constructed toward this end as well, but from a hebrew point of view. Jesus represents the messiah the hebrews have been waiting for, but instead of waging a war on Rome to free Israel physically, the authors of the original gospels intended the messiah to free the people spiritually. Some scholars have speculated that the gospel authors intended to provide their people with an uplifting god-man myth in the same vein as the other myths of the meditteranean to stop the constant rebellions by "messiahs" that were tearing the province apart. After one such messiah rebelled, Jerusalem was raized (again), which may have led to the construction of the Christian scriptures that we know of today, and quite a few that we don't know of.

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

I had the same question in high school, then college, and then in grad school, and on and on and on...

From my study, the story of the crucifixion is a part of a larger mythical allegory designed to teach us what some early Christians referred to as gnosis, and similar to what eastern traditions refer to as enlightenment.

The Jesus story is very similar to other god-man myths of the era. Each story concludes along the same lines with the god-man being sacrificed to appease a father or father figure. In these earlier god-man myths, it was understood by the followers of these religions that the protaganist in question was a myth and not historical. The story, while taking taking from popular historical facts, were allegorical in nature, designed to teach us that man must break from his animal nature in order to reach gnosis.

The Jesus myth was originally constructed toward this end as well, but from a hebrew point of view. Jesus represents the messiah the hebrews have been waiting for, but instead of waging a war on Rome to free Israel physically, the authors of the original gospels intended the messiah to free the people spiritually. Some scholars have speculated that the gospel authors intended to provide their people with an uplifting god-man myth in the same vein as the other myths of the meditteranean to stop the constant rebellions by "messiahs" that were tearing the province apart. After one such messiah rebelled, Jerusalem was raized (again), which may have led to the construction of the Christian scriptures that we know of today, and quite a few that we don't know of.

Of all the Horus references I see (all from the same few websites) nobody can actually quote where this occurs; the level of bad interpretation is mystify.

Now, after someone *reads* the actual Horus text they will quickly discover that this tie between the two is a joke. (even a simple reading of Wikipedia is enough)

The Bible adequately answers this question; your response is a misdirect. You have 4000 years of philosophical history and writing about A) the messiah and B) this exact question.

The Bible contains an overarching story about man/free will/God's right to rule - understanding the story and philosophy are all you need to answer this question.

I don't blame you, I blame the 4 IQ instructors of the Bible who believe "7 days" means God created the earth in 7 literal terran rotations.

 

[ptif219]

This was something I always asked myself when I still believed back in early high school. I never did ask anyone else though, I was to embarrassed to. Know that I think about it, I realize, it makes very little sense. How does the supposed "Son of God" dying on a couple pieces of wood= Salvation for humanity.

Blood sacrifice, the Sacrificial Lamb

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

The "blood sacrifice" doesn't really answer the question, it sounds more like 800 BC Jewish understanding of the matter.

The Bible clears this up: Jesus is a replacement for Adam's (and his offsprings) punishment of death for violating God's 1 rule (which may very well be a metaphorical explanation ala the tree of "knowledge of good and bad")

Why should we pay for Adam's mistake? There is more going on here than Adam's seemingly small mistake. God's *right* to rule creation, his law and the hypocrisy of not following his own rules.

Robert Heinlein (Stranger in a Strange Land) has a great way of exposing an idea and forcing you to see it outside yourself - applying a similar concept think about this from early man's perspective where the idea of nudity/right and wrong/rules are all foreign concepts. When Adam violated God's 1 rule it was more than a simple violation, it was the beginning of understanding "wrong". On top of that one of God's original beings begins mocking him and actively working against his newest created beings.

I find God's handling of this via the Biblical narrative beautiful, patient, mysterious and ultimately right. Think of it: new beings in the universe, with ZERO understanding of the mechanisms that need to be followed for society to form peacefully. What do you do?

 

[ptif219]

The "blood sacrifice" doesn't really answer the question, it sounds more like 800 BC Jewish understanding of the matter.

The Bible clears this up: Jesus is a replacement for Adam's (and his offsprings) punishment of death for violating God's 1 rule (which may very well be a metaphorical explanation ala the tree of "knowledge of good and bad")

Why should we pay for Adam's mistake? There is more going on here than Adam's seemingly small mistake. God's *right* to rule creation, his law and the hypocrisy of not following his own rules.

Robert Heinlein (Stranger in a Strange Land) has a great way of exposing an idea and forcing you to see it outside yourself - applying a similar concept think about this from early man's perspective where the idea of nudity/right and wrong/rules are all foreign concepts. When Adam violated God's 1 rule it was more than a simple violation, it was the beginning of understanding "wrong". On top of that one of God's original beings begins mocking him and actively working against his newest created beings.

I find God's handling of this via the Biblical narrative beautiful, patient, mysterious and ultimately right. Think of it: new beings in the universe, with ZERO understanding of the mechanisms that need to be followed for society to form peacefully. What do you do?

No the Blood sacrifice is needed to cover sin. Jesus blood on the cross replaces the blood needed from a lamb without blemish of defect.

If you understand sacrifice and why it is needed you understand why Jesus went to the cross.

 

[scourge99]

Blood sacrifice, the Sacrificial Lamb

So your god can't forgive or change things without spilling blood?

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

No the Blood sacrifice is needed to cover sin. Jesus blood on the cross replaces the blood needed from a lamb without blemish of defect.

If you understand sacrifice and why it is needed you understand why Jesus went to the cross.

But beyond that why "blood", why a death? That alone doesn't answer the initial question. It is the solution and mark of acceptance for those who believe the philosophy, not the answer to the question.

I think the bible gives that answer - Jesus died in place of Adam (and offspring) because God cannot violate his own law when he said "we would die". (IMO a necessary test for a burgeoning consciousness, as is this period in human history, larger philosophical ideas are at play here)

God has put himself as arbiter of truth, and the center of everything (which I would agree is the only way to maintain peace and righteousness), in that role he cannot simply say "meh, I said it but didn't mean it". So he concocted a plan (see the "bruised heal" in Genesis) that maintained his justice and saved us from condemnation.

It's all there as little gems in the Bible, you just need to weed through the filler.