How does foot taste Rove bashers?

[Stinger]

It's not alie at all.

It most certainly is and you know it, there is no evidence she comes under the law regarding covert agents or that she was covert at the time. But please post the evidence to support your contention.

you

Now Rove is free to out more covert CIA agents, belittle Vets who don't agree with him and get back to what he does best - dividing the country.

me

Vets get to say anything they want without question?

Never said that.

Vets can't be challenged on their opinions?

The hypocrysy of the GOP Chickenhawks is mind boggling though when it comes to their treatment of vets.

So only those who have served in combat can speak on these issues?

With Ann Coulter and Karl Rove as your King and Queen, I'll pass.

If I was a racist, Xenophobic, homophobe the GOP would have a lot to offer. Fortunately, none of those apply.

Do you realize how petty you sound in your whining?

There is absolutely nothing in not indicting Rove that proves that he is innocent, or that Wilson lied, or that the Media is to blame.

Well there is certainly nothing in your claims he is guilty of anything, not a shred of evidence. And as far as Wilson, he lied, period, as the investigative bodies proved. Rove and the White House did their duty in making sure the American public knew it.

 

[Stinger]

I totally agree (but don't tell that to Stinger--he can't stand the thought of anyone being critical of his wittle Rovey Wovey).

Why don't you tell me what the evidence is that he is guilty of something? And childish name calling is not very becoming.

Can't wait until January 2007, when Scooter Libby goes to trial. If I can get into the courtroom one day, I will. This ought to be interesting.

And the 10 witnesses go on the stand and testify that Joe Wilson told them his wife worked for the CIA long before Plame's name was ever mentioned by anyone in the White House? Yes that will be interesting. And when he gets off how will you handle it?

 

[Cookie Parker]

See I don't think it's the issue of who told Scooter about Plame. It's the issue that Scooter leaked it to the press and all. Outting a CIA agent is treason during a time of war.

Guess, though, the government news source, FOX has the trial all wrapped up for you guys, huh? How nice.

 

[oldreliable67]

See I don't think it's the issue of who told Scooter about Plame. It's the issue that Scooter leaked it to the press and all. Outting a CIA agent is treason during a time of war.

Guess, though, the government news source, FOX has the trial all wrapped up for you guys, huh? How nice.

Cookie, even though I haven't followed this as closely as some of the other posters, as I understand it, the only crime Libby is charged with, is lying to a Grand Jury. Furthermore, there was no "outting of a CIA agent": Plame was not covert and was known not to have been in covert status for some number of years, and apparently had not been concealing her employment with the CIA. All of which are conditions for charging someone with violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. Since there have been no charges brought (admitedly, at least as yet), there does not appear to have been any crime - except for Libby's alleged lying to a Grand Jury. No treason. Sorry.

 

[aps]

Cookie, even though I haven't followed this as closely as some of the other posters, as I understand it, the only crime Libby is charged with, is lying to a Grand Jury. Furthermore, there was no "outting of a CIA agent": Plame was not covert and was known not to have been in covert status for some number of years, and apparently had not been concealing her employment with the CIA. All of which are conditions for charging someone with violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. Since there have been no charges brought (admitedly, at least as yet), there does not appear to have been any crime - except for Libby's alleged lying to a Grand Jury. No treason. Sorry.

Okay there, Mr. Omniscient. While I agree that there was no treason, you have no earthly idea of whether or not Plame was covert. But keep telling yourself she was not if it makes you feel better. I guess the government has nothing better to do but investigate a violation of a statute when a mandatory requirement has not been met. Yeah right.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Stinger:
Really, worse because I didn't convict an innocent man and all along urged you to wait until the evidence if any was disclosed.

Interesting how you do an immediate 180 if your statement had one word changed:

worse because I didn't convict an innocent detainee and all along urged you to wait until the evidence if any was disclosed

How long does it take to shave those two faces of yours in the mourning?

And since you put me on your ignore list many Simon Moons ago, I was wrong for starting the thread that indicated Rove would be charged.

Normally, at this point, I'd say, "Have a nice day." But in your case, I wouldn't mean it.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Correct me if I'm wrong - and I may be, 'cause after a while, I no longer followed this closely, certainly not as avidly as some of the contributors to this thread - but did not Joseph Wilson, himself, in a bit of irony, admit that his wife had not been covert since 1997, thereby removing the possibility of a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, which has a five-year limitation? Or did that assertion come from someone else?

I've heard about five interviews with Wilson, and in each one he steadfastly maintains that his wife was covert. I did hear an audio montage of how the right wing noise machine tried to undo Plame's covert status in a stunning display of innuendo and heresay.

Put it this way. The CIA itself called for an investigation into Plame's outing. Why would they care if she wasn't covert?

Plus there's the fact that Bob Nofacts - through Rove or Libby or Cheney undermined the covert status of an entire Brass Plate organization called Brewster Jennings.

Lives were threatened by this. It's treason and the truth will come out sooner or later. Book it.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Not only that, Libby has a list of 10 people who have given depositions stating that Wilson told them his wife worked for the CIA. Hipster knows this and is posting lies.

The question here is when? Helll, there are probably 1000 reporters that Wilson has told by now.

This is very weasleish.

Where did you get transcripts from the Libby investigation?

Please post them if you have them.

 

[oldreliable67]

Okay there, Mr. Omniscient. While I agree that there was no treason, you have no earthly idea of whether or not Plame was covert. But keep telling yourself she was not if it makes you feel better. I guess the government has nothing better to do but investigate a violation of a statute when a mandatory requirement has not been met. Yeah right.

Lives were threatened by this. It's treason and the truth will come out sooner or later. Book it.

Hey, aps, you are absolutely right: I have no earthly idea of whether or not Plame was covert. And neither do you or hipster. All that any of the three of us (or any one else that is on the outside looking in) know is what we have read or heard. And I have read and heard that she was not covert at the time of the so-called outing and had not been covert since 1997.

Furthermore, the CIA is required to report possible disclosures of classified info to the DoJ - I have read and heard that Plame's status as a CIA analyst was indeed classified, hence the (required) report to the DoJ. Do I, or you, or hipster know these for absolute, truthful facts, or that they are not the absolute truthful facts? Of course not. We will all continue to believe the set of "presentations" of alleged facts that best fit our pre-conceived notions.

BTW, it neither makes me feel better or worse. After the initial curiosity wore off and I became convinced that there was no crime involved - not treason, not even a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act - that it appeared to me to be just Clinton impeachment payback, I became quite dis-interested. Still am. Unless more or new info comes to light to change the complexion, the whole thing is just more partisan poop-slinging BS, IMO.

And just so you know, I still blame the Repubs for distracting Clinton from more important affairs of state (to coin a not so clever phrase). There were many important things going on during that period of time (not the least of which was the mushrooming of terrorist activities and the rise to prominence of bin Laden) and Clinton's distraction and inability to give proper time and attention to those matters hampered our reaction to terrorism and other matters,and I largely blame it on Repubs who were doing nothing more, nothing less than engaging in the same old partisan poop-slinging BS, IMO. They did the country a great dis-service. So don't color me a conservative or a Bushie in this regard - there are other things in which you can do that, but not this one.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Hey, aps, you are absolutely right: I have no earthly idea of whether or not Plame was covert. And neither do you or hipster. All that any of the three of us (or any one else that is on the outside looking in) know is what we have read or heard. And I have read and heard that she was not covert at the time of the so-called outing and had not been covert since 1997.

Furthermore, the CIA is required to report possible disclosures of classified info to the DoJ - I have read and heard that Plame's status as a CIA analyst was indeed classified, hence the (required) report to the DoJ. Do I, or you, or hipster know these for absolute, truthful facts, or that they are not the absolute truthful facts? Of course not. We will all continue to believe the set of "presentations" of alleged facts that best fit our pre-conceived notions.

BTW, it neither makes me feel better or worse. After the initial curiosity wore off and I became convinced that there was no crime involved - not treason, not even a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act - that it appeared to me to be just Clinton impeachment payback, I became quite dis-interested. Still am. Unless more or new info comes to light to change the complexion, the whole thing is just more partisan poop-slinging BS, IMO.

And just so you know, I still blame the Repubs for distracting Clinton from more important affairs of state (to coin a not so clever phrase). There were many important things going on during that period of time (not the least of which was the mushrooming of terrorist activities and the rise to prominence of bin Laden) and Clinton's distraction and inability to give proper time and attention to those matters hampered our reaction to terrorism and other matters,and I largely blame it on Repubs who were doing nothing more, nothing less than engaging in the same old partisan poop-slinging BS, IMO. They did the country a great dis-service. So don't color me a conservative or a Bushie in this regard - there are other things in which you can do that, but not this one.

Well, this is why Libby is on trial - obstructing justice in Fitzgerlad's investigation of the outing of a covert CIA operative. I'll wait for the trial.

It certainly looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck though.

 

[Deegan]

Well, this is why Libby is on trial - obstructing justice in Fitzgerlad's investigation of the outing of a covert CIA operative. I'll wait for the trial.

It certainly looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck though.

Or it could be an innocent man, with a family, friends, caught in this vicious political machine!:shock:

But I guess you folks know better then we, you are almost like those who cheered at a witch being burned at the stake in Salem!

It's really creepy.

 

[oldreliable67]

Well, this is why Libby is on trial - obstructing justice in Fitzgerlad's investigation of the outing of a covert CIA operative. I'll wait for the trial.

It certainly looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck though.

Only to a duck hunter.

BTW, the investigation is not into the "outing of a covert CIA operative". Here is the letter to Fitzgerald establishing his mandate:

The Honorable Patrick J. Fitzgerald
United States Attorney
219 S. Dearborn Street
Chicago, IL 60604

Dear Patrick,

By the authority vested in the Attorney General by law, including 28 U. S .C. §§ 509, 510, and 515, and in my capacity as Acting Attorney General pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 508, I hereby delegate to you all the authority of the Attorney General with respect to the Department's investigation into the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity,and I direct
you to exercise that authority as Special Counsel independent of the supervision or control of any officer of the Department.

/s/ James B. Comey
James B. Comey
Acting Attorney General

Source.

You will notice that the mandate is to investigate "alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity". The word "covert" is not mentioned.
The identity of most CIA emplyee's identity is classified, hence the required referral to the DoJ.

 

[Deegan]

Only to a duck hunter.

BTW, the investigation is not into the "outing of a covert CIA operative". Here is the letter to Fitzgerald establishing his mandate:



Source.

You will notice that the mandate is to investigate "alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity". The word "covert" is not mentioned.
The identity of most CIA emplyee's identity is classified, hence the required referral to the DoJ.

This is the lefts Clinton trial, they are still 0 for two, a nice try, brilliant conspiracy, but 0 for noting thus far.

I find it hilarious, but sad all the same.

 

[aps]

Hey, aps, you are absolutely right: I have no earthly idea of whether or not Plame was covert. And neither do you or hipster. All that any of the three of us (or any one else that is on the outside looking in) know is what we have read or heard. And I have read and heard that she was not covert at the time of the so-called outing and had not been covert since 1997.

Furthermore, the CIA is required to report possible disclosures of classified info to the DoJ - I have read and heard that Plame's status as a CIA analyst was indeed classified, hence the (required) report to the DoJ. Do I, or you, or hipster know these for absolute, truthful facts, or that they are not the absolute truthful facts? Of course not. We will all continue to believe the set of "presentations" of alleged facts that best fit our pre-conceived notions.

BTW, it neither makes me feel better or worse. After the initial curiosity wore off and I became convinced that there was no crime involved - not treason, not even a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act - that it appeared to me to be just Clinton impeachment payback, I became quite dis-interested. Still am. Unless more or new info comes to light to change the complexion, the whole thing is just more partisan poop-slinging BS, IMO.

And just so you know, I still blame the Repubs for distracting Clinton from more important affairs of state (to coin a not so clever phrase). There were many important things going on during that period of time (not the least of which was the mushrooming of terrorist activities and the rise to prominence of bin Laden) and Clinton's distraction and inability to give proper time and attention to those matters hampered our reaction to terrorism and other matters,and I largely blame it on Repubs who were doing nothing more, nothing less than engaging in the same old partisan poop-slinging BS, IMO. They did the country a great dis-service. So don't color me a conservative or a Bushie in this regard - there are other things in which you can do that, but not this one.

The fact that her status was classified is something that we can both agree upon. I see what you're saying, and I agree that neither one of us knows whether she was truly covert. Also, I have not seen any evidence of Wilson saying his wife was NOT covert.

I honestly don't see how you can see the Plame thing as a Clinton payback. What does Wilson have to do with Clinton? Wilson is the one who pushed the issue of having this investigated, and I don't see Wilson as being a Clinton supporter, although I guess it's possible. If you have evidence of a relationship between the two, share it with me.

The whole Plame thing, in my personal opinion, is based upon Wilson being disgusted that Novak leaked his wife's name and attributed it to two senior administration people. Frankly, I would feel the same way. I would assume that people working closely to the president would have more integrity than this, although my expectations of any integrity in this administration went out the window a long time ago.

 

[Cookie Parker]

Seems to me that after over a year and millions of dollars, the only thing the independent counsel had on Clinton was "lying to a Grand Jury". Let's try this out on Bush, huh?

I think time will show the corruption within the Bush family that has taxed taxed this nation to pay for their wealth. Look at all the money stolen from the Saving and Loan scandals.

Libby will get his and then I'm sure he'll sing like a bird, if he has not already. Rove won't get off scottfree. His reputation is already tainted and no one wants to hang with someone associated with being a criminal....

 

[oldreliable67]

What does Wilson have to do with Clinton?

It isn't Wilson paying back for Clinton, its Dems who felt aggreived by that 'vast right wing conspiracy'. Wilson may or may not have had anything to do with Clinton, but behind the Wilsons, the Dems (equivalent of Karl Rove?) were sure to be pushing the buttons to push anything and everything seen as harmful to Bush. Thats just the way it seems to go in partisan politics these days. Wilson, being the consumate political opportunist and notorious camera hog that he is, and seeing an opportunity for more camera time, was completely willing to go along.

 

[oldreliable67]

Seems to me that after over a year and millions of dollars, the only thing the independent counsel had on Clinton was "lying to a Grand Jury". Let's try this out on Bush, huh?

"Trying it out on Bush" is exactly what the Dems have been trying to do - thus far, with a singular lack of success. So far, to borrow your phraseology, the only thing the independent counsel has on Libby is obstruction of justice by making false statements to investigators (or was it to the Grand Jury?).

Your comments strike me as being very typical of those of both the rabid Repub Clinton haters during the impeachment process, and those of the folks suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome (BDS). Its all the same partisan horse-poop, regardless of party stripe.

 

[aps]

It isn't Wilson paying back for Clinton, its Dems who felt aggreived by that 'vast right wing conspiracy'. Wilson may or may not have had anything to do with Clinton, but behind the Wilsons, the Dems (equivalent of Karl Rove?) were sure to be pushing the buttons to push anything and everything seen as harmful to Bush. Thats just the way it seems to go in partisan politics these days. Wilson, being the consumate political opportunist and notorious camera hog that he is, and seeing an opportunity for more camera time, was completely willing to go along.

I disagree. Wilson writes an article that was critical of the administration. He made a determination that the intelligence alleged by the Bush Administration was not "there." Suddenly, his wife's name is published in the newspaper and attributed to two senior Bush Administration officials. If I were Wilson, I would be incredulous over this.

I am the type of person that if I felt someone wronged me, I would go out of my way to go after the person/people who wronged me. I see Wilson as being someone who is passionate (like I am) and felt that the leak of his wife's name was abominable and pushed the issue. Some people feel very strongly about loyalty, and if someone did this to my husband, you can bet I would do everything in my power to do something about it. I have mentioned this before--a guy assaulted my husband, and I went out of my way to find out who he was and where he lived and had my husband file charges against him. He was arrested and thrown in jail, and was forced to go to court. We could have brushed it off, but I would not. I say people must be held accountable for their actions. It never occurred to me to drop the issue. I see Wilson as having similar feelings. I commend him for doing this because it further exposed the Bush Adminstration's tactics for dealing with people who disagree with it.

 

[Stinger]

I've heard about five interviews with Wilson, and in each one he steadfastly maintains that his wife was covert. I did hear an audio montage of how the right wing noise machine tried to undo Plame's covert status in a stunning display of innuendo and heresay.

"According to the NationalReviewOnline's Byron York, Libby's lawyer Ted Wells told the court that his witnesses "will say under oath that Mr. Wilson told them his wife worked for the CIA."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/8/125510.shtml

Put it this way. The CIA itself called for an investigation into Plame's outing. Why would they care if she wasn't covert?

That was standard proceedure for anytime an employee of the CIA is named, covert or not.

Plus there's the fact that Bob Nofacts - through Rove or Libby or Cheney undermined the covert status of an entire Brass Plate organization called Brewster Jennings.

Prove it, prove that it was still a secret.

Lives were threatened by this. It's treason and the truth will come out sooner or later. Book it.

Baloney and you know and it has been told to you over and over and over.

 

[Stinger]

The question here is when? Helll, there are probably 1000 reporters that Wilson has told by now.

No that is not a question, go read the facts.

Where did you get transcripts from the Libby investigation?

Please post them if you have them.

What on earth are you talking about, these are the court documents the defense has released to the public. Perhaps you need to get some better news sources so you can keep up with this.

 

[Stinger]

Well, this is why Libby is on trial - obstructing justice in Fitzgerlad's investigation of the outing of a covert CIA operative. I'll wait for the trial.

It certainly looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck though.

"in Fitzgerlad's investigation of the outing of a covert CIA operative."

Post where Fitzgerald found a crime had been committed and that Plame was covert. And don't give us her husband, he is not an authoritative source and has been pegged a liar but the investigative committees. Post where SHE has stated she was still under covert status or anyone at the CIA said she was still under covert status.

 

[Stinger]

Seems to me that after over a year and millions of dollars, the only thing the independent counsel had on Clinton was "lying to a Grand Jury". Let's try this out on Bush, huh?

No it was more than that along with the court sanctioning him and along with the Bar sanctioning him and his plea bargin, but what does that have to do with Bush?

I think time will show the corruption within the Bush family....................

What do these assertions have to do with anything?

that has taxed taxed this nation to pay for their wealth. Look at all the money stolen from the Saving and Loan scandals.

:rofl, talk to Hillary about that.

Libby will get his and then I'm sure he'll sing like a bird, if he has not already.

About what? There was not crime. The White House did exactly what it should have done when the Wilson's levied their attack.

Rove won't get off scottfree. His reputation is already tainted and no one wants to hang with someone associated with being a criminal....

What is he going to be "gotten" on and what is your evidence? And his reputation with those who have reasonable minds is not tainted at all.

Why not engage on the battlefield of ideas rather than baseless personal attacks?

 

[oldreliable67]

Wilson writes an article that was critical of the administration. He made a determination that the intelligence alleged by the Bush Administration was not "there." Suddenly, his wife's name is published in the newspaper and attributed to two senior Bush Administration officials. If I were Wilson, I would be incredulous over this.

Sorry, I'm not being very clear with the point I was trying to make. What you wrote above may well be true, but it is irrelevant to the larger point that I was trying to get at: the Dems have seized on the issue in the same way that the Repubs seized on Clinton's affairs/lying issue: take it and run with as far as you can make it go in smearing the other part, the one currently in power.

On top of that, everything that I read suggests that Wilson is a camera-hungry publicity hound, which just added to the situation.

But, to reiterate, what you said above may well be true and. if so, that played right into the hands of those looking for an issue capable of big-time smear, in their opinion, making Wilson much more amenable to manipulation and acquisence.

 

[hipsterdufus]

This is the lefts Clinton trial, they are still 0 for two, a nice try, brilliant conspiracy, but 0 for noting thus far.

I find it hilarious, but sad all the same.

This has nothing to do with Clinton. This has to do with checks and balances, and unlimited executive power. Deegan, it may be hard for you to grasp this, but one day there may be a President who is not so benevolent, and careful with her powers as Bush is. Once the powers are granted, it is hard to take them away.

There is a long way to go here, and we have more issues to investigate like:

1. Illegal spying on American citizens - violation of FISA.
2. Bush's legality of signing statements - especially with regards to torture.
3. Lying to congress about the need for preemptive war in Iraq.
4. Violating UN Charter by attacking a country that was not an immanent threat.
5. Rendition of torture to foreign lands.
6. US use of WMD in Iraq - White phosphorus etc.
7. Hurricane Katrina
8. War Profiteering in Iraq
9. Corporate Profiteering in Louisiana, Alabama and Missip pi in aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

I'll grant you that none of these have the severity of lying about a consensual BJ, but...

 

[aps]

Sorry, I'm not being very clear with the point I was trying to make. What you wrote above may well be true, but it is irrelevant to the larger point that I was trying to get at: the Dems have seized on the issue in the same way that the Repubs seized on Clinton's affairs/lying issue: take it and run with as far as you can make it go in smearing the other part, the one currently in power.

On top of that, everything that I read suggests that Wilson is a camera-hungry publicity hound, which just added to the situation.

But, to reiterate, what you said above may well be true and. if so, that played right into the hands of those looking for an issue capable of big-time smear, in their opinion, making Wilson much more amenable to manipulation and acquisence.

Ahhh, okay, I understand now what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying. And guess what? I disagree. To me, what the Bush Adminsitration did was objectively wrong and they deserved to be investigated. I agree that some issues are unimportant, but this one is not one of them, IMHO.