How do we build a better educational program?

[Lafayette]

FUNDAMENTAL CHOICE

From Life Learners here: HOW TO BUILD A BETTER EDUCATION SYSTEM FOR NATIONAL GROWTH

Excerpt:

A good education systems are made up of a range of elements, including those that guide development (political and civic leaders); analyze data about progress (information analysis); deliver knowledge and sustenance (school administrators, teachers, books, and curricular materials); constantly seek ways to improve (innovations); ensure everyone is served (inclusion and equity); and keep it nourished (with financing and other resources). Learning improves when countries commit to building education systems over the long term because a strong education system in a country can produce good results either in higher or lower income countries with weaker education systems or stronger education system.

The future is already here, innovative educational practice, and high-tech is key to designing an educational approach of huge sophistication that creates a new future for millions.

Each country have to create and implement a comprehensive education system that reaches all its citizens and which will endure for generations to come, that is the more reason why those of us who work every day on global education have to focus on the importance of the system ...

That conclusion above is the answer to the question, "How do we build a better country?"

And frankly, any country that would have an insurrectional group of knotheads invade its representative political entities had better find some very cogent answers to that question!

The question has a duality. That is, no central-government can do all that is necessary. Because teaching is a highly local profession. So, the question is How do we make that profession ... uh, more professional?

And frankly, I think financing universal education is the answer. Meaning Federal funding (to assist that of each state) from the lowest-to-the-highest level. That is, we need more the funds necessary for All Americans to achieve a decent level of education (up to their capabilities). And if we can fund the DoD, then we can also most certainly fund the Dept. of Education to operate to assist all states with the principle responsibility.

It's a question of fundamental-choice the investment in which is not to be taken lightly ....

 

[swing_voter]

Schools are ran by school districts in America.

Who funds the school districts? Local property taxes mostly.

So rich neighborhoods have fantastic educational systems. Poor neighborhoods, not so much.



.

 

[mrjurrs]

Schools are ran by school districts in America.

Who funds the school districts? Local property taxes mostly.

So rich neighborhoods have fantastic educational systems. Poor neighborhoods, not so much.



.

You are absolutely right. The funding of public education in America is perhaps the best example of the racist power structures that need to be torn down and reimagined. In addition to higher funding through property taxes, rich districts also provide way higher parent funding of needed extras. Who knows how many assets America has tossed aside because they were born in the wrong zip code?

 

[NatMorton]

Step one, break the teachers' unions.

 

[Waddy]

It isn't a funding issue. Education is awash with money. Trouble is, not enough of it makes it to the classroom. As a retired educator, high school teacher and college professor, these are the changes I would make.
1. Eliminate tenure. Eliminate teacher certification. Right now you generally get a person teaching computers for the last 20 years who hasn't actually worked in the field in decades, if ever. He/she is required for further certification to take a few course every four years, not in computers, but teacher education. Same for all the other technical classes, like science. You may have a biology teacher who never actually worked in the field and hasn't had a biology course since day one in teaching. They have NO incentive to upgrading their skill set.

Solution; hire the best, most up to date person you can find. Forget certification, that reduces your pool of possible teachers tremendously. By not requiring certification, many very qualified people would give teaching a try. By ending tenure, instead of teaching being a lifetime appointment, you can evaluate teachers more effectively, and replace ones who don't meaure up. Teaching needs new blood. Right now it is stagnant, because of certification and tenure.

2. The dropout rate is still atrocious. And many students who do graduate can't read or write at a level necessary for college work. They leave high school with NO marketable skills.

Solution; allow students legally into the full time workforce at age sixteen. They are there anyway. Many students MUST work while in high school. Give them a path to success. Allow them to earn a 'vocational" diploma at age sixteen, and take that diploma, along with training in the trades, to the job market. They could later finish a four year diploma if they wish. Trying to make poor kids stick it out to final graduation has been a miserable failure.

3. Most schools try to be everything to everyone. So the result is mediocrity, if not total failure. They are not good at any one thing, because they try to be good at everything. So they have no focus. they can't even define what success looks like.

Solution; schools should specialize. Allow some school choice. Set schools up with narrow expectations, but fund them fairly. Schools could have an athletic focus, or a science focus, computer/ communications, or even a liberal arts focus, like music or art. Allow students to change their minds. And hire the best people you can get for every school. At the high school level these kinds of teachers will have current connections in their fields and also be very up to date.

4. Elementary school is where failure begins. If students can't read or do basic math by 4th-5ht grade they are DOOMED. They will not "catch up", no matter how much the later grade teachers try.

Solution; elementary school needs to focus on basic skills and testing results. Those test results need to be broken down by age, gender and race. Often an average competency might be 60%, but almost all of the 40% who fail might be black boys. By breaking it down you can address these issues. Of course, this is often resisted because no administration wants to look like it's failing any one particular group, if you get my drift.
Elementary schools need to quit switching programs every couple of years. It takes teachers a few years to get really good at a particular reading program, for instance. They begin to anticipate what questions students will ask, and where they are likely to have trouble, and can then address those issues. But when you change things up so often the teachers have to start from square one again. Testing, to see how students are really doing, is more important in elementary school than even the higher grades.

Enough for now. Hope this helps.

 

[mrjurrs]

Step one, break the teachers' unions.

If teachers were paid commensurately with other professionals of like education perhaps union membership would be less attractive.

 

[Waddy]

If teachers were paid commensurately with other professionals of like education perhaps union membership would be less attractive.

Teachers work around 185 days per year. Most jobs are around 250 days per year. Teaching is a great part time job with full time pay and benefits.

 

[Lafayette]

It isn't a funding issue. Education is awash with money. Trouble is, not enough of it makes it to the classroom.

Solution; hire the best, most up to date person you can find. Forget certification, that reduces your pool of possible teachers tremendously. By not requiring certification, many very qualified people would give teaching a try. By ending tenure, instead of teaching being a lifetime appointment, you can evaluate teachers more effectively, and replace ones who don't measure up. Teaching needs new blood. Right now it is stagnant, because of certification and tenure.

2. The dropout rate is still atrocious. And many students who do graduate can't read or write at a level necessary for college work. They leave high school with NO marketable skills.

Solution; allow students legally into the full time workforce at age sixteen. They are there anyway. Many students MUST work while in high school. Give them a path to success. Allow them to earn a 'vocational" diploma at age sixteen, and take that diploma, along with training in the trades, to the job market. They could later finish a four year diploma if they wish. Trying to make poor kids stick it out to final graduation has been a miserable failure.

3. Most schools try to be everything to everyone. So the result is mediocrity, if not total failure. They are not good at any one thing, because they try to be good at everything. So they have no focus. they can't even define what success looks like.

Solution; schools should specialize. Allow some school choice. Set schools up with narrow expectations, but fund them fairly.

4. Elementary school is where failure begins. If students can't read or do basic math by 4th-5ht grade they are DOOMED. They will not "catch up", no matter how much the later grade teachers try.

Well put. Stoopid is as stoopid does. By not attacking and solving the problem now, we keep making prison cells to accommodate those who reduce themselves to thievery to survive. Which solves nothing unless accompanied by educational courses that complete a secondary-schooling. And then they move on to post-secondary education to learn a skill. (For trades, they could learn them whilst in prison. Especially for those talents necessary in the construction industry.)

The solutions are there but not many states are following them. There governors are all mesmerized by the task of getting elected/re-elected and they fail to understand that such is "necessary but not good enough". They need Federal-funding* to really enhance both secondary- and tertiary learning-systems.

And that funding is there! But it's the DoD that is training the kids to go to war - and if they survive the DoD will fund some post-secondary education courses**.

*Well worth a good read from Wikipedia: Public school funding in the United states
Note that it states that the total Federal funding is no more than 8% of its budget for public schooling.
**I repeat what I have said in this forum a hundred times. In France, it cost me $1100 (in Euros) a year in tuition to send my kids to university. (And that sum is typical of all EU countries - because it is the EU central-government that partially funds the post-secondary schooling.)

 

[Lafayette]

IT'S ALL ABOUT FUNDING

It isn't a funding issue. Education is awash with money. Trouble is, not enough of it makes it to the classroom.

Solution; hire the best, most up to date person you can find. Forget certification, that reduces your pool of possible teachers tremendously. By not requiring certification, many very qualified people would give teaching a try. By ending tenure, instead of teaching being a lifetime appointment, you can evaluate teachers more effectively, and replace ones who don't measure up. Teaching needs new blood. Right now it is stagnant, because of certification and tenure.

2. The dropout rate is still atrocious. And many students who do graduate can't read or write at a level necessary for college work. They leave high school with NO marketable skills.

Solution; allow students legally into the full time workforce at age sixteen. They are there anyway. Many students MUST work while in high school. Give them a path to success. Allow them to earn a 'vocational" diploma at age sixteen, and take that diploma, along with training in the trades, to the job market. They could later finish a four year diploma if they wish. Trying to make poor kids stick it out to final graduation has been a miserable failure.

3. Most schools try to be everything to everyone. So the result is mediocrity, if not total failure. They are not good at any one thing, because they try to be good at everything. So they have no focus. they can't even define what success looks like.

Solution; schools should specialize. Allow some school choice. Set schools up with narrow expectations, but fund them fairly.

4. Elementary school is where failure begins. If students can't read or do basic math by 4th-5ht grade they are DOOMED. They will not "catch up", no matter how much the later grade teachers try.

Well put - all of it. By not attacking and solving the problem now, we keep making prison cells to accommodate those who reduce themselves to thievery to survive. Which solves nothing unless accompanied by educational courses that complete a secondary-schooling. And then they move on to post-secondary education to learn a skill. (For trades, they could learn them whilst in prison. Especially for those talents necessary in the construction industry.)

The solutions are there but not many states are following them. Governors are all mesmerized by the task of getting elected/re-elected and they fail to understand that such is "necessary but not good enough". They need Federal-funding* to really enhance both secondary- and tertiary learning-systems.

And that funding is there! But it's the DoD that is training the kids to go to war - and if they survive the DoD will fund some post-secondary education courses**.

*Well worth a good read from Wikipedia: Public school funding in the United states
Note that it states that the total Federal funding is no more than 8% of its budget for public schooling.
**I repeat what I have said in this forum a hundred times. In France, it cost me $1100 (in Euros) a year in tuition to send my kids to university. (And that sum is typical of all EU countries - because it is the EU central-government that partially funds the post-secondary schooling.)

 

[RetiredUSN]

IT'S ALL ABOUT FUNDING



Well put - all of it. By not attacking and solving the problem now, we keep making prison cells to accommodate those who reduce themselves to thievery to survive. Which solves nothing unless accompanied by educational courses that complete a secondary-schooling. And then they move on to post-secondary education to learn a skill. (For trades, they could learn them whilst in prison. Especially for those talents necessary in the construction industry.)

The solutions are there but not many states are following them. Governors are all mesmerized by the task of getting elected/re-elected and they fail to understand that such is "necessary but not good enough". They need Federal-funding* to really enhance both secondary- and tertiary learning-systems.

And that funding is there! But it's the DoD that is training the kids to go to war - and if they survive the DoD will fund some post-secondary education courses**.

*Well worth a good read from Wikipedia: Public school funding in the United states
Note that it states that the total Federal funding is no more than 8% of its budget for public schooling.
**I repeat what I have said in this forum a hundred times. In France, it cost me $1100 (in Euros) a year in tuition to send my kids to university. (And that sum is typical of all EU countries - because it is the EU central-government that partially funds the post-secondary schooling.)

If it were all about funding then the Baltimore city schools should be should be producing educated students since they are the 3rd highest cost per student in the nation. But the system is corrupt from the administration right down the the classrooms.

Greedy Administrators are the Real Reason Why Baltimore’s Education System is Crumbling

The city of Baltimore’s schools are badly failing, despite spending more per capita than almost anywhere in the country. To understand why, one needs only to look where the money is going: into the pockets of crooked public education administrators. Baltimore pays its administrators more than...

www.cagw.org

Baltimore has 13 schools with zero students proficient in math.

Baltimore City is failing its children

In a recent front page article, The Sun reported that Baltimore school students scored near the bottom in reading and math compared to children in other cities and large urban areas on an important…

www.baltimoresun.com

13 Baltimore City High Schools, zero students proficient in math

BALTIMORE (WBFF) - An alarming discovery coming out of City Schools. Project Baltimore analyzed 2017 state testing data and found one-third of High Schools in Baltimore, last year, had zero students proficient in math.But that’s not all we found. In the mi

foxbaltimore.com

 

[NatMorton]

If teachers were paid commensurately with other professionals of like education perhaps union membership would be less attractive.

Ironic. Individual teachers are not paid what they’re worth because they’re in a union, and the wage scale is set by tenure. Those who work as employees at will are paid their worth.

 

[Lafayette]

Individual teachers are not paid what they’re worth because they’re in a union, and the wage scale is set by tenure. Those who work as employees at will are paid their worth.

Is that one union nationally or multiple within a state?

Besides, the fact that they have a contract with either a local or state entity may be the reason they don't negotiate with "strength".

Unions are no longer what they were in the US. In France, they still "have a say" in running operations. And if no Union Management is listening, then they will hear about it on TV any night.

Yesterday was Easter (in France) and the Teachers' unions were out marching for a pay increase. When, in fact, the schools are officially reopening this week (due to Covid).

Anyone who wants to see how unions function well should come to France.

Worker Unions are pretty much history. Their downturn in membership started after WW2 and has continued ever since. I don't understand what workers want* from city/state or Federal government if they do not know how to negotiate with one voice in any given sector ...

*Typically all they care about are a sustained income and not necessarily its "worth".

 

[NatMorton]

Anyone who wants to see how unions function well should come to France.

... and look for the rioters with the yellow vests.

 

[Neomalthusian]

Is that one union nationally or multiple within a state?

There are many "locals" throughout the country but most are a part of either the NEA or the AFT.

Besides, the fact that they have a contract with either a local or state entity may be the reason they don't negotiate with "strength".

The notion of "strength" when it comes to public sector bargaining is fairly illusory, because unions cannot (and for good reason) trump the power of the elected legislative body that ratifies contracts. Or to put it even more bluntly, unions operating within a nation do not and cannot exceed the power of that nation's government.

Unions are no longer what they were in the US. In France, they still "have a say" in running operations. And if no Union Management is listening, then they will hear about it on TV any night.

Yesterday was Easter (in France) and the Teachers' unions were out marching for a pay increase. When, in fact, the schools are officially reopening this week (due to Covid).

Anyone who wants to see how unions function well should come to France.

Worker Unions are pretty much history. Their downturn in membership started after WW2 and has continued ever since. I don't understand what workers want* from city/state or Federal government if they do not know how to negotiate with one voice in any given sector ...

It's arguable to say unions "work well" in France when the French government clearly just allows its public sector unions to hold public services hostage when they're not pleased with new contract terms. I really don't think unions are going to have a bright future if this is ultimately how they derive their power, from threatening to deprive public services (over which they have a monopoly power) until the government gives them what they want, with government officials standing by and allowing this even though they have the power to pass laws that could simply end it.

 

[mrjurrs]

Ironic. Individual teachers are not paid what they’re worth because they’re in a union, and the wage scale is set by tenure. Those who work as employees at will are paid their worth.

You haven't been around education much have you? What percentage of at will teachers are making what they are worth? Revenue cuts have been the norm for public education. Unions prevent lower wages paid to teachers. Get real.

 

[Waddy]

You haven't been around education much have you? What percentage of at will teachers are making what they are worth? Revenue cuts have been the norm for public education. Unions prevent lower wages paid to teachers. Get real.

I made well over $100K as a college professor. No union.

What I oppose regarding teacher's unions is the prohibition against merit pay. Let's say you have a person who has a PhD in biology and has worked as an environmentalist for over a decade, but who now would like to teach AP Biology at a public high school. But he/she is now making $68K per year, and is unwilling to start at the bottom of the teacher's pay scale at perhaps $40K. And he/she has no interest in becoming "certified". You could not hire this person, although they would be a huge upgrade.

And you cannot reward outstanding teachers with a bonus. So what happens in teaching is that it is up to the individual teacher how much effort they put in. Because good or bad, everyone makes the same. Some people inherently do their best, no matter the pay. But the majority , like the rest of us, respond to rewards, especially financial rewards.

 

[NatMorton]

You haven't been around education much have you? What percentage of at will teachers are making what they are worth? Revenue cuts have been the norm for public education. Unions prevent lower wages paid to teachers. Get real.

But we're not talking about maintaining higher wages. We're talking about paying teachers what they're worth.

 

[mrjurrs]

But we're not talking about maintaining higher wages. We're talking about paying teachers what they're worth.

Like I said, I don't think you've been around education very much. Where are you finding teachers that are paid commensurate to their worth? Charter schools? Nope.
"In general, the salary you'd earn in a charter school is significantly lower than what you'd earn in a traditional public school. However, it is important to note that some charters do offer somewhat better pay than the public schools in their areas."

Public vs. Charter Teacher Salaries -

As a teacher, you have many choices for where you want to work these days. You can work for a traditional public school, an online public or charter school, a private school, run your own business as a tutor, or perhaps you offer homeschooling classes. These are just a few areas where teachers...

www.perennialresources.com

 

[Allan]

If teachers were paid commensurately with other professionals of like education perhaps union membership would be less attractive.

In the US starting salary for a teacher is 39K, a veteran teacher can get 70K. I would think upping the starting salary would be a good first step. Then look at equalizing funding for schools so that conditions and resources improve in the poorer areas of the country.

 

[NatMorton]

Like I said, I don't think you've been around education very much. Where are you finding teachers that are paid commensurate to their worth? Charter schools? Nope.
"In general, the salary you'd earn in a charter school is significantly lower than what you'd earn in a traditional public school. However, it is important to note that some charters do offer somewhat better pay than the public schools in their areas."

Public vs. Charter Teacher Salaries -

As a teacher, you have many choices for where you want to work these days. You can work for a traditional public school, an online public or charter school, a private school, run your own business as a tutor, or perhaps you offer homeschooling classes. These are just a few areas where teachers...

www.perennialresources.com

You're really not following the conversation. "Worth" does not mean "more" or "higher." What a good or service is worth is what people are willing to pay for it. If municipalities are willing to pay experienced teachers six figure salaries, then that's what good teachers are worth. If they're only willing to pay good teachers $60k/yr, that's what they're worth.

I don't think you've been around the real world very much. Outside of industries dominated by union monopolies (like public education), this is how it's done.

 

[mrjurrs]

You're really not following the conversation. "Worth" does not mean "more" or "higher." What a good or service is worth is what people are willing to pay for it. If municipalities are willing to pay experienced teachers six figure salaries, then that's what good teachers are worth. If they're only willing to pay good teachers $60k/yr, that's what they're worth.

I don't think you've been around the real world very much. Outside of industries dominated by union monopolies (like public education), this is how it's done.

Public education is not a free market, therefore the rules of the free market don't apply. Just because Americans are unwilling to pay for the education the 21st century requires hardly indicates the worth of an individuals labor. Who is worth more, a first grade teacher or the last player on a NBA bench, because one makes 3 times the salary as the other.

 

[noonereal]

How do we build a better educational program?​

Step one, anyone involved in education currently needs to be no part of the build.

 

[noonereal]

last player on a NBA bench, because one makes 3 times the salary as the other.

3 times? LOL

You are clearly not aware of the NBA pay.
an NBA player's minimum pay with 10 years experience is $2,564,753.

I don't know any teachers with 10 years experience making north of "800, 000 a year.

 

[NatMorton]

In the US starting salary for a teacher is 39K, a veteran teacher can get 70K. I would think upping the starting salary would be a good first step. Then look at equalizing funding for schools so that conditions and resources improve in the poorer areas of the country.

Let's give public school systems the chance to hire, fire, and pay teachers as they choose. Let's then let parents and students decide which schools they prefer to attend. Then we'll know what teachers are worth.

 

[NatMorton]

Public education is not a free market, therefore the rules of the free market don't apply. Just because Americans are unwilling to pay for the education the 21st century requires hardly indicates the worth of an individuals labor. Who is worth more, a first grade teacher or the last player on a NBA bench, because one makes 3 times the salary as the other.

We are in complete agreement. Public education is not a free market, and therefore the rules that normally set the value of something do not apply.

If, however, we want to pay teachers what they are actually worth then applying free market principles to public education is exactly what we should do.