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How can you justify voting for Obama a second time?

TurtleDude

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Since you admire Republicans, you should vote Republican.

the thought of not being able to demand others pay for your existence really scares the crap out of lots of people
 

Neomalthusian

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I don't get people like you who want lots of freedom and yet don't want to pay for any of it.

Freedom is not something you purchase with high taxes. Bush and Co. used this "freedom isn't free" argument as a desperate attempt to justify the wars to the public. Is this really the type of argument you want to adopt?

Yes, they do. But it seems they get a good bang for their buck...

Taxes run approximately 48% of wages in total.

But... they get good healthcare from cradle to grave. Their system is publicly financed but adminstration is decentralized. And their healthcare is ranked among the highest in the world. Total costs run about 9% of GDP and have been stable since the '80's. The maximum cost to any citizen per year is just $380(USD), entirely as small co-pays for individual services.

Also under the healthcare program is a disability benefit that pays a significant percentage of your regular earnings indefinately from the 2nd day of illness/injury.

And... they get free higher education, too, if they want it. Bachelors, Masters, Doctorate. Paid for out of those taxes.

Retirement benefits are also included and average over $2500/month (USD).

Frankly, that's not too shabby...

Interesting. But raising taxes will not turn us into a Sweden.
 
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TurtleDude

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I see little point in voting or even having an election if it's Obama v. Romney, which I expect it will be. Vote whoever. As far as we're all concerned they're the same person.

not as far as judges go

examine QuotaMayor's vote on McDonald vs Chicago and compare it to Roberts and Alito
 

TurtleDude

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Like high taxes? You mean the kind we enacted to pay for WWII?

I don't get people like you who want lots of freedom and yet don't want to pay for any of it.

Fyi: Check out the test scores from Sweden. Wowzers. They make our kids look dumb....which considering the average intelligence here is TRUE!

the only people who have high taxes in America are those in those in the top few percent (not including those in the very top of the one percent)
 

whysoserious

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the only people who have high taxes in America are those in those in the top few percent (not including those in the very top of the one percent)

Which, compared to most modern countries, is actually a low tax rate.
 

winston53660

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the only people who have high taxes in America are those in those in the top few percent (not including those in the very top of the one percent)

The people with the highest overall tax burden are towards the lower end of the spectrum.
 

TurtleDude

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Which, compared to most modern countries, is actually a low tax rate.

In most countries that our liberal friends want us to emulate the rich are taxed more in terms of marginal rates but they tend to pay the same share of the income tax as their share of the income which is true for other classes. In the USA those of us in the top couple percent are the only class that Pays more of the income tax burden than our share of the income. which of course is why so many people who aer "liberal" think that there should be more and more government spending-the voters who want that crap generally are paying far less than their share and have no incentive to limit runaway government
 

TurtleDude

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The people with the highest overall tax burden are towards the lower end of the spectrum.

Uh that's a complete lie and you know it the people at the top 1000 or so its probably true compared to those of us in the bottom 2/3 of the top one percent.

A majority of americans pay less than 10% effective federal income taxes and those uber wealthy are around 17%

people like me are paying around 25% effective income tax rates and when you add all federal taxes were pay around 30-32% which is the highest rate-far higher than the middle class which is about half of that
 

solletica

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obama is just the least of all evils among the mainstream (media-backed) pols, because of who's sponsoring him. obama isn't owned by any oil firms whereas perry and cain are.
 

Neomalthusian

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obama is just the least of all evils among the mainstream (media-backed) pols, because of who's sponsoring him. obama isn't owned by any oil firms whereas perry and cain are.

By whom IS Obama backed, and why are they better to influence our politicians than oil companies are?

I thought Obama's platform was to fight for the middle and working classes, not the rich. Was I wrong? I don't think so. I think that WAS his platform.

People's reasons for supporting this guy cannot be rational. It's visceral and subjective.
 
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obvious Child

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Freedom is not something you purchase with high taxes. Bush and Co. used this "freedom isn't free" argument as a desperate attempt to justify the wars to the public. Is this really the type of argument you want to adopt.

Hardly. I agree that freedom isn't free, we have to sacrifice. Bush and Co didn't bother to ask the country to do so when they should have.
 

obvious Child

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the only people who have high taxes in America are those in those in the top few percent (not including those in the very top of the one percent)

Actually effective marginal tax rates on everyone in the US are low compared to first world standards and historical US standards.
 

TurtleDude

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Actually effective marginal tax rates on everyone in the US are low compared to first world standards and historical US standards.

remind me what the historical standards were from say 1790 through 1929 or so

This is America

I tire of people saying we ought to be a cradle to grave welfare socialist state like most of europe

and in Europe the group that say makes 30% of the income tends to pay 30% of the taxes. IN the USA the group that make 22% of the income pays almost 40% of the taxes
 

TurtleDude

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Not really in terms of total taxes levied on their net income.

Your problem in this discussion, is the same as always. You only account for income taxes when there are far more taxes than just income.

when gasoline taxes, excise taxes on firearms and Ammo (TTB, a bureau of the treasury has a site where you can find this), etc become an issue in elections let me know. and most of people like me deal with death taxes sooner or later-stuff that is never counted in our overall effective federal tax rate

that the government now treats FICA which was a mandatory contribution, not a tax, when enacted is the main tax the middle class and somewhat poor pay

state taxes are irrelevant in this discussion though
 

obvious Child

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remind me what the historical standards were from say 1790 through 1929 or so

This is America

I tire of people saying we ought to be a cradle to grave welfare socialist state like most of europe

and in Europe the group that say makes 30% of the income tends to pay 30% of the taxes. IN the USA the group that make 22% of the income pays almost 40% of the taxes

You really want to compare a time that is in no way relevant to the discussion? That's stupid and you know it.

Furthermore, we hardly have a welfare state. Canadians look at signs fundraising for a kid's cancer treatment and consider us primitive. And Europe differs quite dramatically. The poor EU states have what you describe and who are not comparable to the US, but the richer states have a highly progressive tax system. Britain's enacting a 50% tax on people making high levels if income.

when gasoline taxes, excise taxes on firearms and Ammo (TTB, a bureau of the treasury has a site where you can find this), etc become an issue in elections let me know. and most of people like me deal with death taxes sooner or later-stuff that is never counted in our overall effective federal tax rate

Talking more about general sales tax. Only you would bring in something as relatively obscure as firearms taxes as if it was relevant.

that the government now treats FICA which was a mandatory contribution, noot a tax, when enacted is the main tax the middle class and somewhat por pay

It doesn't matter how they treat it. FICA is still a tax. Just because it is a giant monkey wrench in your argument doesn't mean you can ignore it.

state taxes are irrelevant in this discussion though

Absolutely they are relevant. A poor person in California who pays huge amounts of sales tax has a higher burden as a percent of their income then a rich ranch owner in Wyoming who pays virtually nothing to his state.
 

TurtleDude

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If you are going to resort to history you cannot pick and choose

and you know as well as I do that much of the government expansion that started with the New Deal was based on rather bogus constitutional machinations by FDR and his court

If a poor person doesn't like state taxes he should move--that of course was the original beauty of a United STATES

and that is why I oppose the left's desire to make the federal government responsible for the stuff the states should handle. If Ohio becomes a massive welfare state I can move to KY. When the federal government does all that crap we cannot escape it

Its not a monkey wrench because its not being used for the same buy the votes scheme

I reject the from each according to their ability nonsense that the left claims is basically the only proper inquiry for taxes

and none of them ever deal with the fact that those who aren't paying any income tax are far more likely to support raising rates on those who do

if every hike in the income tax rates were imposed on everyone equally meaning if income tax rates went up 2% they go up two percent for every citizen, I bet we wouldn't have near the bloated government we have today
 

obvious Child

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If you are going to resort to history you cannot pick and choose

Well, by that measure, let's look at tax rates in the 900 AD time period. We can do this all we want, but unless we pick a time period that is relatively similar to our current one, it's idiotic. Actually, that was likely to be near 100% as people had to support Kings with massive taxation for their armies. Russian Serfs had near 100% taxation. You basically want to go back to tax rates where we had to provide essentially no services. That's not realistic and you know it.

and you know as well as I do that much of the government expansion that started with the New Deal was based on rather bogus constitutional machinations by FDR and his court

Depends how you define bogus. But I'm not getting into that with you.

If a poor person doesn't like state taxes he should move--that of course was the original beauty of a United STATES

Except that poor people don't have the means to do that, especially if they don't have a job waiting for them in the other state.

and that is why I oppose the left's desire to make the federal government responsible for the stuff the states should handle. If Ohio becomes a massive welfare state I can move to KY. When the federal government does all that crap we cannot escape it

And what if states refuse? Like how Texas is letting millions be uninsured and millions more fall into abject poverty?

Its not a monkey wrench because its not being used for the same buy the votes scheme

That made no coherent sense.

I reject the from each according to their ability nonsense that the left claims is basically the only proper inquiry for taxes

Come again? Each according to their ability is the basis of capitalism. Those who have greater abilities tend to rise and those without tend to fall. What we prevent is a free fall for those without such abilities.

and none of them ever deal with the fact that those who aren't paying any income tax are far more likely to support raising rates on those who do

At the same time those who do pay a little as a percent, but millions in absolute do support raising taxes on themselves.

if every hike in the income tax rates were imposed on everyone equally meaning if income tax rates went up 2% they go up two percent for every citizen, I bet we wouldn't have near the bloated government we have today

Why are you so hung up on income taxes when they make up less than easily 30% of total taxes levied in the country?
 

TurtleDude

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Opinion noted not shared. I pay over 300K in income taxes and I am maxed out on FICA-a ponzi scheme I doubt I will ever receive any benefit from. I would have 4 times the money I can count on from that crap if I was able to have kept it and invest it at the rate of return I have averaged over the last 30 years.

There is no argument you can make that can convince me that its proper to have a system where the many are promised more stuff paid for by raising the rates on the people who already pay most of the income taxes. other forms of taxes don't have that vote buying nonsense.

as has been noted, a democracy (or constitutional republic) will fail when the public figures out it can vote itself the wealth of the public treasury or the wealth of a minority

that doesn't seem to bother you, it bothers me

and no personal insult intended, didn't you say you were in college at the time of the Kenyan Riots which were what-4 or so years ago? how long have you been working?
 

Chappy

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Personally, I think third parties are for people who don't want to be responsible for the election outcome.

Far from being the being the lesser of two evils, I believe Obama will be recognized as one of the most significant presidents of the twenty-first century, indeed in all of American history. In part, this is due to the perfect storm of national unmet challenges he inherited from his predecessor, but, also he has demonstrated keen political insight and leadership in getting things done. Obama has been a measured, meticulous leader both in domestic policies and foreign initiatives.

America has always been lucky in leadership when it really needed it. Washington. Lincoln. Obama is the latest example. There's room for one more on Rushmore. I think we know who, now.
 

TurtleDude

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Personally, I think third parties are for people who don't want to be responsible for the election outcome.

Far from being the being the lesser of two evils, I believe Obama will be recognized as one of the most significant presidents of the twenty-first century, indeed in all of American history. In part, this is due to the perfect storm of national unmet challenges he inherited from his predecessor, but, also he has demonstrated keen political insight and leadership in getting things done. Obama has been a measured, meticulous leader both in domestic policies and foreign initiatives.

America has always been lucky in leadership when it really needed it. Washington. Lincoln. Obama is the latest example. There's room for one more on Rushmore. I think we know who, now.

as Obama slurpage goes that's pretty thick
 

Higgins86

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Personally, I think third parties are for people who don't want to be responsible for the election outcome.

Far from being the being the lesser of two evils, I believe Obama will be recognized as one of the most significant presidents of the twenty-first century, indeed in all of American history. In part, this is due to the perfect storm of national unmet challenges he inherited from his predecessor, but, also he has demonstrated keen political insight and leadership in getting things done. Obama has been a measured, meticulous leader both in domestic policies and foreign initiatives.

America has always been lucky in leadership when it really needed it. Washington. Lincoln. Obama is the latest example. There's room for one more on Rushmore. I think we know who, now.

sorry mate I have more chance at scoring the winning goal for England in the World cup than Obama does at ever getting chipped into Rushmore
 
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pdog

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I would have voted for McCain (even with the half-wit attached to his side). Unfortunately he started down the "wealth distribution" trail. As soon as a republican candidates stop pandering to the weathly and the embarassed millionaires of the country and acknowledges socialism as a firm part of american history, they will have a chance at my vote. Until then....
 

TurtleDude

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I would agree with that if there was a strong movement that would ensure the 3rd party candidate had a fair shot. However, I'm really not willing to risk a Republican in office - I don't think most Democrats are.

yeah the thought of rolling back the welfare state terrifies some
 
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