How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical centre?

[cherokee]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical centre?

How about regardless where in the world one of these Islamic morons starts their chit you place a bullet thru their head?
Assassination groups work for me.

What, Does that seem harsh? No harder then the tactics they use now is it….

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

It wasn't simply US Govt spending by the US that caused Gorbechov to essentially disband to old Stalinist communist system. It was the realization that despite having a roughly equivalent population and resources, after 70 years of the experiment with communism, it was apparent that that system was a failure at producing the economic potential of the nation. Gorbechov realized the SU could never compete with the U.S. because the communist economic system was not nearly as effective.

Mostly because the Soviet Union had strayed from what communism was supposed to be. Instead of being a worker's paradise, it was a society of the haves and have-nots, doomed to failure because human nature really doesn't work with a communist model.

Then again, human nature doesn't really work with a wholly capitalist model either. Pure capitalism and pure communism are both unattainable constructs, both need to be mixed with other systems to have any chance whatsoever of being stable.

 

[Iriemon]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical centre?

How about regardless where in the world one of these Islamic morons starts their chit you place a bullet thru their head?
Assassination groups work for me.

What, Does that seem harsh? No harder then the tactics they use now is it….

No problem with that. It is finding them that is the tough part.

 

[cherokee]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

No problem with that. It is finding them that is the tough part.

Watch the news feeds from the Middle East..

 

[oldreliable67]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical centre?

How about regardless where in the world one of these Islamic morons starts their chit you place a bullet thru their head?
Assassination groups work for me.

What, Does that seem harsh? No harder then the tactics they use now is it….

What is that phrase the kids say today..."I'm down with that!"

My only regret is that I'm to old to re-up!

Hooyah!

 

[Iriemon]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Watch the news feeds from the Middle East..

My guess is they already thought of that.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Which is why we all drive SUVs that get 3mpg, right?



If by securing, you mean taking over, sure.



And we might as well use all those trillions of dollars worth of weapons we built for the Cold War that are now going to waste, right?



Funny, one of the hallmarks of America is freedom. Freedom to choose. Freedom to determine your own destiny. Just how much freedom are we allowing people when we go in and impose democracy on a people who really don't want it?

Yes, we are hypocrites.

Oil is just not for personal mobility. It's for commerce/shipping and until a new technology can take over, that is the reality. I agree, I don't understand why a person needs a gas guzzling hummer, but our necessity for oil is not only for the status symbol culture. A huge chunk is needed for commerce.

Were taking over Iraq? Well I agree that a@@hole dictators and 2% of their filth we are imposing democracy, but not on the majority of people who want the same opportunities as we do.

The weapons of the cold war served their purpose to fight an inferior pant@@itting idealogy. Maybe we can get some use out of those weapons we spent trillions on, on Iran?

O.k. we are hypocrites? Were not perfect as humans, we make mistakes, but democracy brings out the best for the majority of it's people. I'm surprised you don't believe that, or maybe you do, just disagree on the methods we use to protect it?

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Oil is just not for personal mobility. It's for commerce/shipping and until a new technology can take over, that is the reality. I agree, I don't understand why a person needs a gas guzzling hummer, but our necessity for oil is not only for the status symbol culture. A huge chunk is needed for commerce.

It would be nice if most companies were even *TRYING* to develop alternate fuel sources, but no, for the most part they're just trying to use as much oil as they can get their hands on, the MPG requirements in this country are just ludicrous. England and Europe have much, much more efficient cars already on the road, Americans won't touch them, if they were even available here.

I'll believe the whole 'until a new technology can take over' nonsense if anyone were actively trying to find a new technology.

Were taking over Iraq? Well I agree that a@@hole dictators and 2% of their filth we are imposing democracy, but not on the majority of people who want the same opportunities as we do.

They do? The sunnis hate the shiites, the shiites hate the sunnis and everyone hates the kurds. Heaven forbid anyone suggests freedom for an opposing group and holy ****, let's not suggest freedom of religion out loud. Ain't gonna happen.

The weapons of the cold war served their purpose to fight an inferior pant@@itting idealogy. Maybe we can get some use out of those weapons we spent trillions on, on Iran?

Nah, Bush would never actually fight anyone who had the potential for doing us some damage, he's just a bully that goes after 98-lb weaklings he can kick sand in the face of. That's why he ******d out of the whole North Korea thing.

O.k. we are hypocrites? Were not perfect as humans, we make mistakes, but democracy brings out the best for the majority of it's people. I'm surprised you don't believe that, or maybe you do, just disagree on the methods we use to protect it?

No, American democracy at least brings out the complacent in people. People take it for granted. People are sheep that are easily herded around by corrupt politicians, we barely even have a democratic republic anymore, people get elected functionally for life unless they really, really screw up because people vote for who looks best on TV and who has the snappiest sound bites.

If that's the best in people, I demand better.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

It would be nice if most companies were even *TRYING* to develop alternate fuel sources, but no, for the most part they're just trying to use as much oil as they can get their hands on, the MPG requirements in this country are just ludicrous. England and Europe have much, much more efficient cars already on the road, Americans won't touch them, if they were even available here.

I'll believe the whole 'until a new technology can take over' nonsense if anyone were actively trying to find a new technology.



They do? The sunnis hate the shiites, the shiites hate the sunnis and everyone hates the kurds. Heaven forbid anyone suggests freedom for an opposing group and holy ****, let's not suggest freedom of religion out loud. Ain't gonna happen.



Nah, Bush would never actually fight anyone who had the potential for doing us some damage, he's just a bully that goes after 98-lb weaklings he can kick sand in the face of. That's why he ******d out of the whole North Korea thing.



No, American democracy at least brings out the complacent in people. People take it for granted. People are sheep that are easily herded around by corrupt politicians, we barely even have a democratic republic anymore, people get elected functionally for life unless they really, really screw up because people vote for who looks best on TV and who has the snappiest sound bites.

If that's the best in people, I demand better.

The market will develop a new technology when it's needed. That is the reality. The Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds can live in peace. It may take awhile, just like Europe took awhile to come around, but it's not impossible. Wouldn't you agree that the majority of people in Iraq want the same opportunities as we do? Bush has made good decisions regarding North Korea in working with Russia and China to wipe their own a@@ with one of their communist pantsh@@ters in North Korea. China and Russia just need to do more, put more pressure on North Korea, however it may take awhile longer before China and Russia see the big picture. I thought you didn't want America to micro manage the rest of the world anyway? Democracy makes us complacent? I disagree, Democracy makes us more active and motivated compared to any other style of government.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Wouldn't you agree that the majority of people in Iraq want the same opportunities as we do?

I don't know, why don't you go ask them? And while you're at it, why don't you ask how many want a western-style democracy imposed on them.

China and Russia just need to do more, put more pressure on North Korea, however it may take awhile longer before China and Russia see the big picture.

In other words, until they do what we want, right?

Democracy makes us complacent? I disagree, Democracy makes us more active and motivated compared to any other style of government.

That's why Americans are one of the most politically ignorant, lazy nations of couch-potatoes around, right?

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

I don't know, why don't you go ask them? And while you're at it, why don't you ask how many want a western-style democracy imposed on them.



In other words, until they do what we want, right?



That's why Americans are one of the most politically ignorant, lazy nations of couch-potatoes around, right?

Well, I think it's safe to say the majority of Iraqi's would like to live in peace, and when they defeat the A@@holes that make up the 2% of troublemakers, they will create their own style of democracy.

And it's common sense to push Russia and China to recognize the danger of the insane leader of N. Korea.

No I would say America is the most politically active country from college campuses, local politics, state and national etc. etc. and What's wrong with a little couch-potatoness. It's usually due to working hard all week trying to make a better life for oneself, and our families.

 

[Teven_1]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Well, I think it's safe to say the majority of Iraqi's would like to live in peace, and when they defeat the A@@holes that make up the 2% of troublemakers, they will create their own style of democracy.
I'm glad to see the news on the Iraq cencus came in and that only 2% are fighting America. It was probably a hard number to corral I'm sure. Although many may have not ticked the "troublemaker" job because they felt they where "terrorists" or "freedom fighters". But wow 2% and we're getting our asses handed to us? Imagine if 3% "hated freedom" we'd be in quite a pickle. Whille I'll agree with you a good solid majority probably want peace you cannot argue with me that they where not at war before we enter Iraq, and we're acctually not in a state of war and thus where living in....well...peace due to the well absence of war and all. The funniest part is they wherent this motivated to act when Sadam was ruling yet we come in and they're motivated to blow themselves in cars to get us out, thats food for thought if you ask me. As far as there own style of democracy It will have to be as the Shii's and Sunis haven't agreed on anything since the 600's

And it's common sense to push Russia and China to recognize the danger of the insane leader of N. Korea.
I wonder where NK got the nukes? a communist ally? China? perhaps? America did handle NK civily and everything ended fine with an poorley drafted agreement but hey no ones dead over that one right?
No I would say America is the most politically active country from college campuses, local politics, state and national etc. etc. and What's wrong with a little couch-potatoness. It's usually due to working hard all week trying to make a better life for oneself, and our families.
America is very politically active theres no doubt about it, although the declining number of people voting at election day is troubling. However to call Americans lazy and politically inactive is incorrect I agree whole heartedly on this.

I am proud to be from a country where we can be couch potatos, it is one thing no amount of terror will ever take away from us.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

I am proud to be from a country where we can be couch potatos, it is one thing no amount of terror will ever take away from us.

Thank you for that, America is still a great country although we have some cultural issues I suppose. I agree I didn't get 2% from any source, just was making a point that the majority of the Iraqi people would like to live in peace. This is the goal of the majority of people everywhere in my opinion. Whether 2-10% or 100% are motivated to kill innocent women and children as a freedom fighting strategy, then let's IMPOSE democracy on all them. I don't agree that we are however. I will say again I think that just a small percent are creating all of the problems there, and it will take some time to get in under control. The level at which they will go to killing the innocent to destablize the democratic process needs to be crushed at all costs. Also, Saddam was a threat to national security and national interests in the region. Maybe there was no war before, but you would agree I hope that being pro-active to potential issues is a valid strategy?

 

[Teven_1]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Thank you for that, America is still a great country although we have some cultural issues I suppose. I agree I didn't get 2% from any source, just was making a point that the majority of the Iraqi people would like to live in peace. This is the goal of the majority of people everywhere in my opinion. Whether 2-10% or 100% are motivated to kill innocent women and children as a freedom fighting strategy, then let's IMPOSE democracy on all them. I don't agree that we are however. I will say again I think that just a small percent are creating all of the problems there, and it will take some time to get in under control. The level at which they will go to killing the innocent to destablize the democratic process needs to be crushed at all costs. Also, Saddam was a threat to national security and national interests in the region. Maybe there was no war before, but you would agree I hope that being pro-active to potential issues is a valid strategy?

I belive most nations would be happy with a democracy like the United States which is albeit not perfect but I will not try to delude myself into beliving that there is any other country I'd rather be the last remaining super power. With all our faults I honestly think that Capitalism and Democracy is infinatley a lesser evil to swallow then the alternatives. I don't think that countrys led by radicals and extremists are representative of the desires of the people they govern.
However that dosen't change my outlook on certain actions America has commited in the past. Our entry to Iraq simply did not make sense in my opinion. Whille freeing oppressed people is great on paper, some aren't ready to fight or sacrifice for it. I belive many Iraq's want to live in peace and perhaps the back lash we are experiencing is from the fact that we are not bringing them peace, but democracy, and this fight for democracy is killing them. Couple with propagand it is easy to blame the United States for all there problems. Whille life under Sadam was far from pleasent car bombs, explosions, and bombings wheren't as frequent to say the least. This is why my theory is we are increasing the number of people fighting us in Iraq. To try to outstubborn the arabs is foolish, history tells us this. It's a very complicated problem. In Afghanistan Alquida took power because the Afghans where sick of the fighting and killing and Alquida did bring stability to Afghanistan. So how can we win? we don't know who the enemy is and every innocent we kill accidently is recruitment fodder for the terrorists, every mistake we make is just another way they can twist us into the imperialist invaders. I feel it is an oxymoron to suppress the people for democracy, and what I am seeing is more and more a path towards another dictator rulling with an iron fist to keep the people in check. America fought for its independence as did France, as did many other countrys, we did not wait for there struggle to begin. That is the one point I have realized where was all this zeal and fight when Sadam was in power agaisnt Sadam? it wasn't there, they didnt fight him but they fight us with such fevor it is terrifying. Maybe one day we could attempt this but we where already hated in the Middle East and whille Osama can easily be replaced by so many (and more now thanks to us) we have yet to force his replacement.

I miss when America was the good guy, the funny thing is if you study history we where always after our own interests we where just much smarter about it than we are now.

I fail to see Sadams danger to us on a national level, any more than King Jong Ill or Iran, and Sadam wasn't even calling America Satan at the United Nations. I see very little he could have done even had he tried.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

I agree I didn't get 2% from any source, just was making a point that the majority of the Iraqi people would like to live in peace.

The question isn't whether or not they want to live in peace, the question is whether or not they want to live in peace under a political system that is imposed on them by force. I'm sure that your average Iraqi citizen lived in peace under Saddam, just how much peace are they living under right this minute?

 

[oldreliable67]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

I'm sure that your average Iraqi citizen lived in peace under Saddam,

So just the unlucky ones, the "non-average" citizens, wound up in a mass grave or tortured or merely imprisoned? So was it like drowning in a lake with an average depth of 3 inches, where its that one little 12 foot hole that does you in?

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

So just the unlucky ones, the "non-average" citizens, wound up in a mass grave or tortured or merely imprisoned? So was it like drowning in a lake with an average depth of 3 inches, where its that one little 12 foot hole that does you in?

Careful, your biases are showing. The discussion is about how the average citizen is doing. The average was much better off while Saddam was around than they are under the current regime, there is no question whatsoever. That doesn't make Saddam a good guy, it just means what it means. You didn't have suicide bombers strapping bombs to their backs and walking into crowded public places like you do now. You didn't have sectarian violence at the ridiculous levels that you do now.

Of course, we can turn this around and say that the 'unlucky ones' and 'non-average citizens' in the United States, the ones who get murdered in drive-by shootings, stabbed, beat up, abused for not following common beliefs, etc. prove that democracy is a failed system.

Doesn't work that way.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

I belive most nations would be happy with a democracy like the United States which is albeit not perfect but I will not try to delude myself into beliving that there is any other country I'd rather be the last remaining super power. With all our faults I honestly think that Capitalism and Democracy is infinatley a lesser evil to swallow then the alternatives. I don't think that countrys led by radicals and extremists are representative of the desires of the people they govern.
However that dosen't change my outlook on certain actions America has commited in the past. Our entry to Iraq simply did not make sense in my opinion. Whille freeing oppressed people is great on paper, some aren't ready to fight or sacrifice for it. I belive many Iraq's want to live in peace and perhaps the back lash we are experiencing is from the fact that we are not bringing them peace, but democracy, and this fight for democracy is killing them. Couple with propagand it is easy to blame the United States for all there problems. Whille life under Sadam was far from pleasent car bombs, explosions, and bombings wheren't as frequent to say the least. This is why my theory is we are increasing the number of people fighting us in Iraq. To try to outstubborn the arabs is foolish, history tells us this. It's a very complicated problem. In Afghanistan Alquida took power because the Afghans where sick of the fighting and killing and Alquida did bring stability to Afghanistan. So how can we win? we don't know who the enemy is and every innocent we kill accidently is recruitment fodder for the terrorists, every mistake we make is just another way they can twist us into the imperialist invaders. I feel it is an oxymoron to suppress the people for democracy, and what I am seeing is more and more a path towards another dictator rulling with an iron fist to keep the people in check. America fought for its independence as did France, as did many other countrys, we did not wait for there struggle to begin. That is the one point I have realized where was all this zeal and fight when Sadam was in power agaisnt Sadam? it wasn't there, they didnt fight him but they fight us with such fevor it is terrifying. Maybe one day we could attempt this but we where already hated in the Middle East and whille Osama can easily be replaced by so many (and more now thanks to us) we have yet to force his replacement.

I miss when America was the good guy, the funny thing is if you study history we where always after our own interests we where just much smarter about it than we are now.

I fail to see Sadams danger to us on a national level, any more than King Jong Ill or Iran, and Sadam wasn't even calling America Satan at the United Nations. I see very little he could have done even had he tried.

I disagree regarding Saddam. To have underestimated Saddam would be a foolish mistake. 911 helped us get the funds necessary to finally get rid of the bastard. I think he was committed to either starting a holy war or striking us somehow, and he would have found a way to do it. America is still the good guy, and there is nothing wrong with looking out for our interests. What country wouldn't do that?

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

The question isn't whether or not they want to live in peace, the question is whether or not they want to live in peace under a political system that is imposed on them by force. I'm sure that your average Iraqi citizen lived in peace under Saddam, just how much peace are they living under right this minute?

And who is to blame for that even if it were true that we were imposing democracy on them? It was Saddam's government. That is the reality, and a functional political system is what they are interested in. They voted for that, remember?

 

[oldreliable67]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Careful, your biases are showing. The discussion is about how the average citizen is doing. The average was much better off while Saddam was around than they are under the current regime, there is no question whatsoever. That doesn't make Saddam a good guy, it just means what it means. You didn't have suicide bombers strapping bombs to their backs and walking into crowded public places like you do now. You didn't have sectarian violence at the ridiculous levels that you do now.

Of course, we can turn this around and say that the 'unlucky ones' and 'non-average citizens' in the United States, the ones who get murdered in drive-by shootings, stabbed, beat up, abused for not following common beliefs, etc. prove that democracy is a failed system.

Doesn't work that way.

Not exactly what I was trying to get at. My (clearly unsuccessful) attempt was intended to point out the difficulty in defining the "average" Iraqi citizen as existed under Saddam and the Sunni minority governance versus an "average" Iraqi citizen as currently found under the predominately Shia regime.

Certainly the average Sunni had a much better time of it under Saddam. Not so sure about the average Shia.

 

[Teven_1]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

I disagree regarding Saddam. To have underestimated Saddam would be a foolish mistake. 911 helped us get the funds necessary to finally get rid of the bastard. I think he was committed to either starting a holy war or striking us somehow, and he would have found a way to do it. America is still the good guy, and there is nothing wrong with looking out for our interests. What country wouldn't do that?

What could Sadam have done and what signs pointed to him being the threat?
So you agree we used 9/11 to start a war with Iraq that was completley unrelated?

 

[oldreliable67]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

What could Sadam have done and what signs pointed to him being the threat?

Anyone who doesn't believe that left unfettered, Saddam would have renewed his pursuit of the first Arab nuclear weapons, is being completely fatuous. For signs of him being a threat, review post #6 in this thread:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-iraq/19269-what-if-u-s-had-stayed-out-iraq.html

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Not exactly what I was trying to get at. My (clearly unsuccessful) attempt was intended to point out the difficulty in defining the "average" Iraqi citizen as existed under Saddam and the Sunni minority governance versus an "average" Iraqi citizen as currently found under the predominately Shia regime.

In the end, debating who is better off is pretty pointless, the only thing that really matters is what happens in the long run, after the U.S. has left (assuming we ever leave) and they're free to make their own choices without coersion. If democracy survives, then I guess that's what worked out best for them. If they go back to some sectarian government, then that's best for them too.

 

[oldreliable67]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

In the end, debating who is better off is pretty pointless, the only thing that really matters is what happens in the long run, after the U.S. has left (assuming we ever leave) and they're free to make their own choices without coersion. If democracy survives, then I guess that's what worked out best for them. If they go back to some sectarian government, then that's best for them too.

Agreed. In the end, it is their choice to make. Our only purpose is to facilitate their ability to make that choice.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Agreed. In the end, it is their choice to make. Our only purpose is to facilitate their ability to make that choice.

Then we should allow them to make a choice, not push them into a western-style democracy whether they want one or not. Standing around, heavily armed, saying 'oh sure, you have a choice' isn't all that convincing.

The fact that we're not leaving Iraq until we're satisfied they're doing things the way we want them done is a clear indication they don't really have a choice.