How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical centre?

[Mr_DBater]

In WWI in Europe it was a case of fighting clearly identified German planes, ships and soldiers in uniforms. Get to Berlin and Hitler. Take him out, in this case drive him to suicide and you have end of problem.
In the pacific it was a case of fighting clearly identified Japanese planes, ships and soldiers in uniform. Get to Tokyo or near enough with atom bombs and get Hirohito to surrender and end of problem.
In both cases we were dealing with mortal figureheads located at a geographical centre and we were fighting clearly identified soldiers in uniform. In the case of Al Queda we're dealing with an invisible enemy that worships an immortal figurehead, namely Allah with no geographical centre. It's like swatting flies in the dark when all along the main dung heap is in Pakistan anyway.
We're just putting our troops in harms way in Iraq and achieving nothing in the process, apart from getting thousands of our troops harmed.
Now with improved post 911 homeland security/intelligence in the USA It's extremely difficult for Al Queda to hit Americans on American soil. The only way for Al Queda to hit us is by going to Muslim turf. In doing so Bush and Blair played right into Bin Ladens' hands.
Returning to my original question... How can we possibly win against an ideology with an immortal figurehead and no geograpical centre and that's virtually invisible becuase it's warriors don't even wear uniforms ?
My view is it's an utterly hopeless cause. Iraq has been a waste of thousands of lives and hundreds of $billions.
The only hope is better homeland security and learning to live with the fact that a sizeable proportion of the rest of the world is always going to be living under Muslim theocracy. Nothing has been achieved in Iraq apart from intalling a toothless psuedo democracy and starting a bloodbath between two warring tribal factions.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Quite simply, no human being should buy into the concept that we should expect other people's belief that martyrdom or jihad are virtues.

Respect for religious beliefs, instead of judging their reasons, gives cover to dogmatic fundamentalism.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

In WWI in Europe it was a case of fighting clearly identified German planes, ships and soldiers in uniforms. Get to Berlin and Hitler. Take him out, in this case drive him to suicide and you have end of problem.
In the pacific it was a case of fighting clearly identified Japanese planes, ships and soldiers in uniform. Get to Tokyo or near enough with atom bombs and get Hirohito to surrender and end of problem.
In both cases we were dealing with mortal figureheads located at a geographical centre and we were fighting clearly identified soldiers in uniform. In the case of Al Queda we're dealing with an invisible enemy that worships an immortal figurehead, namely Allah with no geographical centre. It's like swatting flies in the dark when all along the main dung heap is in Pakistan anyway.
We're just putting our troops in harms way in Iraq and achieving nothing in the process, apart from getting thousands of our troops harmed.
Now with improved post 911 homeland security/intelligence in the USA It's extremely difficult for Al Queda to hit Americans on American soil. The only way for Al Queda to hit us is by going to Muslim turf. In doing so Bush and Blair played right into Bin Ladens' hands.
Returning to my original question... How can we possibly win against an ideology with an immortal figurehead and no geograpical centre and that's virtually invisible becuase it's warriors don't even wear uniforms ?
My view is it's an utterly hopeless cause. Iraq has been a waste of thousands of lives and hundreds of $billions.
The only hope is better homeland security and learning to live with the fact that a sizeable proportion of the rest of the world is always going to be living under Muslim theocracy. Nothing has been achieved in Iraq apart from intalling a toothless psuedo democracy and starting a bloodbath between two warring tribal factions.

Our economy needs oil, the rest of the world needs oil and most of the people in the middle east want democracy. We haven't even scratched the surface of sacrifice compared to World War 1 and 2. The only hopeless cause is assuming defeat. Al Queda isn't even on the map compared to world war 1 and 2. It's just that we have a lot of 60's generation folk that are in power now, and don't understand the real world.

 

[Mr_DBater]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

No one is answering the question..... How can we possibly win against an ideology with an immortal figurehead and no geograpical centre and that's virtually invisible becuase it's warriors don't even wear uniforms ?

 

[WI Crippler]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

No one is answering the question..... How can we possibly win against an ideology with an immortal figurehead and no geograpical centre and that's virtually invisible becuase it's warriors don't even wear uniforms ?

Send a PM to GySgt. He will write you a 3 page post on how we can acheive victory.

In all seriousness he does have some good ideas, but part of it depends on the Muslim leaders engaging the enemies as well. It can never be a clear military victory like we had in WWI, WWII, and the first Gulf War, because it is not a battle between governments anymore. The battle of the Iraqi government and US government lasted a mere 3 weeks. The war in Iraq now, is significantly different in scope and objective than it was when we started in 2003.

 

[mikhail]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

While we seem to be failing in Iraq im confident we will eventually win this war on terror though it may be very messy.While the middle east is deeply religious i believe their must be millions of people who would rather save their lives than give up their religion.

Iran has alot of middleclass people who just want to get on with their lives the extremists will lose support of the moderate eventually "full bellies dont start reveloutions".I see at least in some parts of the middle east secularism will be inevitable(long term).

All things come to an end religious extremism is something that fluctulates.




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[Francaisforever]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

......"It can never be a clear military victory like we had in WWI, WWII, and the first Gulf War,"........especially when the US didn't win WW1.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

No one is answering the question..... How can we possibly win against an ideology with an immortal figurehead and no geograpical centre and that's virtually invisible becuase it's warriors don't even wear uniforms ?

With that logic we never won against fascism or communism

 

[Kandahar]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

How can we possibly win against an ideology with an immortal figurehead and no geograpical centre and that's virtually invisible becuase it's warriors don't even wear uniforms ?

By simply not elevating this ideology to the position of ultimate opposition to America. As long as America is the most powerful country in the world, people who are looking for foreigners to blame for their problems will naturally blame America. There's nothing we can do about that. However, by waging a massive "war on terror" that has consumed nearly all of our foreign policy, George Bush has elevated a shithead like Osama bin Laden to the role of his primary enemy on the world stage. And as such, that makes him a hero for millions of people by default.

Want to deflate their ideology? Here's what we should (and shouldn't) do:

A) Don't overreact to terrorist attacks

B) End the "global war on terror" and instead focus resources in specific areas where terrorism is an especially large threat to the United States, such as Afghanistan and Somalia.

C) Don't do things that needlessly provoke violence, such as occupying Iraq or not maintaining the pretenses of neutrality in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

D) Encourage Muslim countries to liberalize their economies and open up to free trade. This is the best long-term solution, because it will cause an influx of new ideas as well as new goods/services that will greatly raise the standard of living.

 

[WI Crippler]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

......"It can never be a clear military victory like we had in WWI, WWII, and the first Gulf War,"........especially when the US didn't win WW1.

When I referenced "we" in regards to the other conflicts I was not just talking about the US. Only a fool believes that the US did it alone, and only a fool believes US involvment wasn't important in turning the tide.

 

[Philolawsoc]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Want to deflate their ideology? Here's what we should (and shouldn't) do:

A) Don't overreact to terrorist attacks

B) End the "global war on terror" and instead focus resources in specific areas where terrorism is an especially large threat to the United States, such as Afghanistan and Somalia.

C) Don't do things that needlessly provoke violence, such as occupying Iraq or not maintaining the pretenses of neutrality in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

D) Encourage Muslim countries to liberalize their economies and open up to free trade. This is the best long-term solution, because it will cause an influx of new ideas as well as new goods/services that will greatly raise the standard of living.

This is correct, but I would to say something more to it.
First, there is no chance to put democracy in some political or social system by force. Thru history we all can find different evidences which are sayin to us, that every change needs a time to evolve. This "rule" can be explained by analyzing relationship between church and state in medieval ages. Our todays democracy is based on greek philosophy and state theory. Afterall, to use and to put these theories in real life we had been passed many, many, ages and years to be ready -i.e- to turn off slavery, to give active and passive rights to women, to develop constitutional state based on respect of life, liberty and property.... for all these things someone must be ready to use and to care it. I must say, almost all countries in mid-east (including Israel) are on the way to have that,....however today they are very far away from that goal and all those happenings by them are result of this development (just like Europe in mid-ages). So...problem is in "democratic" societies to understand this development and to act liberaly (for that is now to late, but it can be done in some cases anyway..), that includes; not to interact and to force democratic progressions in such societies which aren't ready to accept it; not to use political influence to win just energy source i.e "oil", because that says so much about democratic societies on wrong way and mark them as only "capitalistic" societies which are valuing money more than life or human inner values (ironic: that is somehow truth :roll: ).
The biggest mistake of US & Allies is, that they are trying to put democracy in Iraq by using force; for them is only important "oil" because of "capitalistic type of economy" etc,...and all bad events would never take their place if they/US & Allies acted little bit different in the past.

P.S. "U.S troops should be/stay in United States (I think many families would be happier),...cause in this moment their presence in Iraq, Afganistan and other countries is resulting more argue on global level."

 

[Iriemon]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

By simply not elevating this ideology to the position of ultimate opposition to America. As long as America is the most powerful country in the world, people who are looking for foreigners to blame for their problems will naturally blame America. There's nothing we can do about that. However, by waging a massive "war on terror" that has consumed nearly all of our foreign policy, George Bush has elevated a shithead like Osama bin Laden to the role of his primary enemy on the world stage. And as such, that makes him a hero for millions of people by default.

Want to deflate their ideology? Here's what we should (and shouldn't) do:

A) Don't overreact to terrorist attacks

B) End the "global war on terror" and instead focus resources in specific areas where terrorism is an especially large threat to the United States, such as Afghanistan and Somalia.

C) Don't do things that needlessly provoke violence, such as occupying Iraq or not maintaining the pretenses of neutrality in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

D) Encourage Muslim countries to liberalize their economies and open up to free trade. This is the best long-term solution, because it will cause an influx of new ideas as well as new goods/services that will greatly raise the standard of living.

Good points. The only way you can "win" a stuggle against an attitude is do things that change the attitude. The attitude is anti-American extremism. We are not going to win by doing things that make even more folks anti-American extremists.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Good points. The only way you can "win" a stuggle against an attitude is do things that change the attitude. The attitude is anti-American extremism. We are not going to win by doing things that make even more folks anti-American extremists.

Nonsense, throw more fuel on the fire, that'll put her out!

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

With that logic we never won against fascism or communism

We didn't. Fascism and communism still exist in the world. We never wiped them out, we just proved we had a bigger credit card than they did, even if it's something that we'll be paying off for centuries.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

We didn't. Fascism and communism still exist in the world. We never wiped them out, we just proved we had a bigger credit card than they did, even if it's something that we'll be paying off for centuries.

That's true, there is a price to pay fighting pantshi$$ting governments and ideologies.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

That's true, there is a price to pay fighting pantshi$$ting governments and ideologies.

But it wasn't U.S. capitalism that defeated communism, it was our credit limit. We didn't show our way was superior, we simply outspent them and put ourselves deeply into hock. The time is rapidly coming when China could do the same thing to us, does that prove that Chinese communism is superior to U.S. capitalism or that they've got more credit cards than we do?

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

But it wasn't U.S. capitalism that defeated communism, it was our credit limit. We didn't show our way was superior, we simply outspent them and put ourselves deeply into hock. The time is rapidly coming when China could do the same thing to us, does that prove that Chinese communism is superior to U.S. capitalism or that they've got more credit cards than we do?

No, our way is superior unless your a fan of gulags and bread lines? or are you talking about on paper. Fine then... Marx was brilliant on paper, so is Dickens. Good your recognizing that we did defeat communism though. O.k. almost all of communism except for some heady professors and wannabee's with Ak's in the jungles, and on fascism we put a dent on that too. No more millions mobilized trying to control Europe, and South East Asia, but by and large China and Russia are coming around, and if they did want to beat us it will be due to modeling their economies after ours, not centrally controlling them like they have done in the past. They are learning to take their diapers off. Hopefully we will get al queda too as well.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

No, our way is superior unless your a fan of gulags and bread lines? or are you talking about on paper.

You subjectively think our way is superior and that's fine. I do too. Doesn't make it necessarily so though.

Fine then... Marx was brilliant on paper, so is Dickens.

Communism is a great system, just not for humans. Humans inherently want to get ahead. They want to improve. Communism, at least pure communism, does not allow for improvement and advancement. That's why it failed.

Good your recognizing that we did defeat communism though.

We bankrupted Russia, that's about it. Russian communism, as a system, was designed to fall apart once it reached a certain stage. We just caused it to self-destruct about 200 years too early, simply because we forced them into a military ******* contest. Neither side won, in fact, I'd say both lost because the American people especially are going to be paying trillions of dollars for a fight that never should have happened in the first place. The whole "evil communist empire" nonsense was just a dick-waving contest.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

You subjectively think our way is superior and that's fine. I do too. Doesn't make it necessarily so though.



Communism is a great system, just not for humans. Humans inherently want to get ahead. They want to improve. Communism, at least pure communism, does not allow for improvement and advancement. That's why it failed.



We bankrupted Russia, that's about it. Russian communism, as a system, was designed to fall apart once it reached a certain stage. We just caused it to self-destruct about 200 years too early, simply because we forced them into a military ******* contest. Neither side won, in fact, I'd say both lost because the American people especially are going to be paying trillions of dollars for a fight that never should have happened in the first place. The whole "evil communist empire" nonsense was just a dick-waving contest.

Well contemplate on then. Maybe there is something better than democracy? and I think you can draw a lot positives from the Soviet Union's downfall as there are so many countries now that can feel free to comtemplate on as well. I do feel sorry for us free minded thinkers in N. Korea or Laos etc. that don't have the same rights. Same with the free thinkers in the middle east that wish al queda would just go away so they can learn and grow without the threat of these pantsh$$ters too.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Well contemplate on then. Maybe there is something better than democracy? and I think you can draw a lot positives from the Soviet Union's downfall as there are so many countries now that can feel free to comtemplate on as well. I do feel sorry for us free minded thinkers in N. Korea or Laos etc. that don't have the same rights. Same with the free thinkers in the middle east that wish al queda would just go away so they can learn and grow without the threat of these pantsh$$ters too.

That may be true but it doesn't change anything. Since when was it our job to go around and impose democracy on the rest of the world? Since when did we have to bankrupt our future for it? How far into the red are we willing to go for Bush's personal crusade in the Middle East? Ideology is one thing, sure it would be nice for everyone to be free to think and say what they want (hell, we sure can't do that in the U.S. anymore, thanks to the current administration) but who elected us Supreme Ruler of the Planet Earth?

 

[Iriemon]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

But it wasn't U.S. capitalism that defeated communism, it was our credit limit. We didn't show our way was superior, we simply outspent them and put ourselves deeply into hock. The time is rapidly coming when China could do the same thing to us, does that prove that Chinese communism is superior to U.S. capitalism or that they've got more credit cards than we do?

It wasn't simply US Govt spending by the US that caused Gorbechov to essentially disband to old Stalinist communist system. It was the realization that despite having a roughly equivalent population and resources, after 70 years of the experiment with communism, it was apparent that that system was a failure at producing the economic potential of the nation. Gorbechov realized the SU could never compete with the U.S. because the communist economic system was not nearly as effective.

It was communism that failed.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

That may be true but it doesn't change anything. Since when was it our job to go around and impose democracy on the rest of the world? Since when did we have to bankrupt our future for it? How far into the red are we willing to go for Bush's personal crusade in the Middle East? Ideology is one thing, sure it would be nice for everyone to be free to think and say what they want (hell, we sure can't do that in the U.S. anymore, thanks to the current administration) but who elected us Supreme Ruler of the Planet Earth?

Do we dump the tea in the harbor and fight a revolution, do we declare war on Germany, do we fight the north koreans and north Vietnamese, do we fight terrorism? These are very tough questions that we Americans have had to make over the course of our history. Could things have been done better? Could we survive as a country if we chose not to make some of these decisons. Maybe so, but it's always easier to Monday morning quarterback history right? and it's not our job to be supreme ruler of planet earth. It just so happens that we care as a nation about the rest of the world, and about our own interests. The U.S. has demonstrated this time and time again, but your right with out current situation in Iraq. The cost is high, however I believe it's worth it.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

It just so happens that we care as a nation about the rest of the world, and about our own interests. The U.S. has demonstrated this time and time again, but your right with out current situation in Iraq. The cost is high, however I believe it's worth it.

Come on, we don't give a damn about the rest of the world. We're in the Middle East because we want oil. We're in Iraq because George Bush was going after the guy who tried to kill his daddy. That's all. It isn't about terrorism, that's just an excuse, that's how he got us in there by lying about Saddam and his ties to 9/11.

The cost in Iraq is not worth it. All we're doing is making everyone hate us even more than they did before and bankrupting our children, our grandchildren and our grandchildren's children's future.

Nothing is worth that.

 

[Awesome!]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

Come on, we don't give a damn about the rest of the world. We're in the Middle East because we want oil. We're in Iraq because George Bush was going after the guy who tried to kill his daddy. That's all. It isn't about terrorism, that's just an excuse, that's how he got us in there by lying about Saddam and his ties to 9/11.

The cost in Iraq is not worth it. All we're doing is making everyone hate us even more than they did before and bankrupting our children, our grandchildren and our grandchildren's children's future.

Nothing is worth that.

We need oil, it fuels our economy which fuels the world economy. Were securing another seller with Iraq. Plus we can fight terrorism at the same time gaining valuable R&D. The majority of people around the world don't hate us, they want the same opportunities that we have, granted with different cultures, but the overall concept is the same. And we do care about the rest of the world. Anyone who loves democracy wishes this on everyone.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How can we win against an ideology with immortal figurehead & no geograpical cent

We need oil, it fuels our economy which fuels the world economy.

Which is why we all drive SUVs that get 3mpg, right?

Were securing another seller with Iraq.

If by securing, you mean taking over, sure.

Plus we can fight terrorism at the same time gaining valuable R&D.

And we might as well use all those trillions of dollars worth of weapons we built for the Cold War that are now going to waste, right?

The majority of people around the world don't hate us, they want the same opportunities that we have, granted with different cultures, but the overall concept is the same. And we do care about the rest of the world. Anyone who loves democracy wishes this on everyone.

Funny, one of the hallmarks of America is freedom. Freedom to choose. Freedom to determine your own destiny. Just how much freedom are we allowing people when we go in and impose democracy on a people who really don't want it?

Yes, we are hypocrites.