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How can libertarians hate liberals?

FinnMacCool

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I don't get this at all. why do liberterians side with conservatives on so many issues and seem to have a dislike liberals? If the basic idea of liberterianism is that anything that doesn't hurt you should be legal, don't they kinda have to support liberals? How else would they make any changes? Perhaps I just do not understand libertarians. I mean its true on economic policys they are right wing but they are also very liberal social issues so i just don't get it. Anyone mind explaining?
 

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FinnMacCool said:
I don't get this at all. why do liberterians side with conservatives on so many issues and seem to have a dislike liberals? If the basic idea of liberterianism is that anything that doesn't hurt you should be legal, don't they kinda have to support liberals? How else would they make any changes? Perhaps I just do not understand libertarians. I mean its true on economic policys they are right wing but they are also very liberal social issues so i just don't get it. Anyone mind explaining?
1) liberal is a misunderstood term today. american liberals tend to be statist reactionary parasites

2) "liberals" believe that the state is more important than the individual. that the village is the basic unit not the individual, not the family

3) every major gun ban in US history has been pushed or passed by "liberals"

4) the liberals defend the death confiscation tax which counters libertarian ideals two ways-a)social engineering and b) taxking wealth for no other reason than its wealth

5) liberals push for control of private property

6) liberals are as bad as the conservatives on the war on drugs

7) liberals are the only people pushing for a draft now

8) liberals push for group rights such as affirmative action. group rights are anathema to libertarians
 

TurtleDude

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FinnMacCool said:
er...yeah whatever dude.

the sort of response I expected from a teenager who started a stupid thread:mrgreen:

I guess you were expecting me to agree with the mistaken point you made?
 
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I don't like economic policy supported by 'liberals' because they are essentially collectivist/statist policies, that are the complete opposite of the meaning 'Liberal'

Liberal doesn't just mean social freedoms, but economic freedom. Liberals in America and Australia should renamed as social liberal/statists.

Libertarians are the true liberals.

But saying that, Clinton was a far better fiscal conservative than George Bush will ever be.

:mrgreen:
 

Technocratic_Utilitarian

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liberal is a misunderstood term today. american liberals tend to be statist reactionary parasites
Completely false. I have already falsified this inane belief over 3 times on this forum alone. To a search to get schooled. For them to be parasites, they would have to be living off of your money, when, in fact, statistics show they are far, far wealthier, on average, than are you.

2) "liberals" believe that the state is more important than the individual. that the village is the basic unit not the individual, not the family
False. Liberals do not believe the state is more important than the individual. That's Fascism and Communism, of which Liberalism is neither. You're so full of ****, it's a wonder the pressure buildup doesn't blow the top of your infantile head off.

In fact, Liberals are slightly socialistic on economics (OH NO! wank wank wank) but the second most 'liberal' on social issues. According to Pew Research, they are second only to Libertardians, who are anarchist-wannabees.

3) every major gun ban in US history has been pushed or passed by "liberals"
And not every Liberal is against gun usage or ownership. How would you like your hasty-generalization fallacy served? Stupid? Or Imbecilic?

4) the liberals defend the death confiscation tax which counters libertarian ideals two ways-a)social engineering and b) taxking wealth for no other reason than its wealth
Ahhh. This is a very nice distortion of reality by using emotional buzzlanguage in order to poison the well without having to make any real point. "death tax" is a neocon word used as a rhetorical ploy. Nice try puddin' pie. Now use some logic with that tasty treat.

When you are dead, you:

A. Don't need your money anyway, and it ought to go to better use
B. Your "parasite" benefit recepitents...aka "children" didn't earn it (libertardians love to claim that whoever doesn't earn something, shouldn't get it).

C. don't get all of your estate taken, and the proper term is not death-tax, but estate tax. Shave away the emotional rhetoric and the bullshit disappears.

5) liberals push for control of private property
So what? Also provide case study. Private property isn't absolute. No right is. If you are going to refer to the Court case that expanded Eminant Domain...you woudl be well-advised to know many liberals are greatly opposed to it, as you can see if you visit: Liberalforum.org


6) liberals are as bad as the conservatives on the war on drugs
False. The standard liberal position is that drugs should be legalized. The State has no business telling you what you can do with your body, given that you are not going to become a danger to others around you. Liberals are generally pro-drug use for people.

7) liberals are the only people pushing for a draft now
=

Prove it. Also, don't be general. There are millions of Liberals who aren't. Don't confuse democrat with liberal either, since most liberals actually consider themselves Independents, unhappy with the democratic party.

8) liberals push for group rights such as affirmative action. group rights are anathema to libertarians
Actually, many liberals are also opposed to AA, including myself. Liberals are also very pro individual rights as well as limited government control over morality, social issues. The ONLY places you are generally correct are economics and gun control, but even the latter isn't unified.




To really answer the question: Not all Libertarians do hate liberals. They simply disagree with them on economic issues, but everyone cannot always agree on everything. Libertarians tend to strongly gravitate toward the Liberal social agenda, but not the economic one. Libertarians live in a a "classical" world in which the best ecomomic system is one that relies on pure charity...which is fantasy.

Many don't really care who suffers, as long as they make a profit out of it. They are their highest goal, and ethics be damned. Consequences for others don't matter.
 

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All this talk of "Liberalism" from guy who has Rockefeller's UNITED NATIONS as his personal symbol.

The UN is an organization "supposedly" created by "Liberals."

That is, if you consider Capital/Communists and War profiteering "liberal."
 

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Technocratic_Utilitarian

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Lucidthots said:
All this talk of "Liberalism" from guy who has Rockefeller's UNITED NATIONS as his personal symbol.

The UN is an organization "supposedly" created by "Liberals."

That is, if you consider Capital/Communists and War profiteering "liberal."
Ad Hominem Fallacy

Please. All you can do is ad hominem and then display the same lame pictures over and over again in any thread regardless of the topic in which you participate. You have no real argument.

Learn how to make a logical argument, not a fallacy cloaked in rhetoric. My banner has nothing to do with my position. That's an irrelevant attack on the man, not the argument; such tactics are not a proper replacement for evidence/argumentation.

There's nothign wrong with Capitalism. Further, Capital/communists makes no sense. Do you have a point?
 
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Excuse me but liberatarians are not anarchists wannabes. Anarchists believe in no government!

Libertarians believe that government should be limited. That government should provide the 'nightwatchman' role. I.e to make sure that business is conducted fairly, and unfraudulently. That government needs to provide police, fire fighters, hospitals, education, and some infrastructure.

I believe that there needs to be some government regulation, in various issues. And that reason for regulation should be; to prevent criminal activity, and prosecute criminal activity, whereby an INDIVIDUAL'S RIGHTS have been infringed on by another party.

Libertarians are not anarchists, we believe in the role of government, BUT WE BELIEVE IN MINIMAL GOVERNMENT.

Collectivism/communism is not liberal thought, because it denies an individual's right to make their own economic choices.
 
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TurtleDude

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
Completely false. I have already falsified this inane belief over 3 times on this forum alone. To a search to get schooled. For them to be parasites, they would have to be living off of your money, when, in fact, statistics show they are far, far wealthier, on average, than are you.



False. Liberals do not believe the state is more important than the individual. That's Fascism and Communism, of which Liberalism is neither. You're so full of ****, it's a wonder the pressure buildup doesn't blow the top of your infantile head off.

In fact, Liberals are slightly socialistic on economics (OH NO! wank wank wank) but the second most 'liberal' on social issues. According to Pew Research, they are second only to Libertardians, who are anarchist-wannabees.



And not every Liberal is against gun usage or ownership. How would you like your hasty-generalization fallacy served? Stupid? Or Imbecilic?



Ahhh. This is a very nice distortion of reality by using emotional buzzlanguage in order to poison the well without having to make any real point. "death tax" is a neocon word used as a rhetorical ploy. Nice try puddin' pie. Now use some logic with that tasty treat.

When you are dead, you:

A. Don't need your money anyway, and it ought to go to better use
B. Your "parasite" benefit recepitents...aka "children" didn't earn it (libertardians love to claim that whoever doesn't earn something, shouldn't get it).

C. don't get all of your estate taken, and the proper term is not death-tax, but estate tax. Shave away the emotional rhetoric and the bullshit disappears.



So what? Also provide case study. Private property isn't absolute. No right is. If you are going to refer to the Court case that expanded Eminant Domain...you woudl be well-advised to know many liberals are greatly opposed to it, as you can see if you visit: Liberalforum.org




False. The standard liberal position is that drugs should be legalized. The State has no business telling you what you can do with your body, given that you are not going to become a danger to others around you. Liberals are generally pro-drug use for people.

=

Prove it. Also, don't be general. There are millions of Liberals who aren't. Don't confuse democrat with liberal either, since most liberals actually consider themselves Independents, unhappy with the democratic party.



Actually, many liberals are also opposed to AA, including myself. Liberals are also very pro individual rights as well as limited government control over morality, social issues. The ONLY places you are generally correct are economics and gun control, but even the latter isn't unified.




To really answer the question: Not all Libertarians do hate liberals. They simply disagree with them on economic issues, but everyone cannot always agree on everything. Libertarians tend to strongly gravitate toward the Liberal social agenda, but not the economic one. Libertarians live in a a "classical" world in which the best ecomomic system is one that relies on pure charity...which is fantasy.

Many don't really care who suffers, as long as they make a profit out of it. They are their highest goal, and ethics be damned. Consequences for others don't matter.

what a rude little flamer we have here-you prove everything I said was true. Giving my money to whom I want hardly makes them parasites. what is the richest group that consistently supports the left in the USA? TRIAL LAWYERS-parasites in the traditional definition. As to the gun issues-true some liberals aren't anti gun and some conservatives hate guns but the question was why libertarians hate liberals and since liberals staff, fund and are members of the main gun banning organizations my answer was valid

its amazing how the most insulting posters tend to be the kids who really have no clue what they speak of. Your claim about the drug laws is again a lie-the democratic party-the main roosting grounds for "liberals" in the USA-has never tried to overturn the idiotic war on drugs which got a major start in the FDR era and was increased under Nixon-BY A DEMOCRATIC controlled congress
 
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FinnMacCool

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the sort of response I expected from a teenager who started a stupid thread

I guess you were expecting me to agree with the mistaken point you made?
No but I've come to expect that instead of you coming on here to flame, you would have given be an actual answer but I guess thats too hard for you.
 

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FinnMacCool said:
I don't get this at all. why do liberterians side with conservatives on so many issues and seem to have a dislike liberals? If the basic idea of liberterianism is that anything that doesn't hurt you should be legal, don't they kinda have to support liberals? How else would they make any changes? Perhaps I just do not understand libertarians. I mean its true on economic policys they are right wing but they are also very liberal social issues so i just don't get it. Anyone mind explaining?
Well, you have to keep in mind what a liberal and a conservative are supposed to be, and supposed to stand for.
Up until W. conservatism was not adherently attatched to christianity. The main goals of the republican party, also still associated with the christian right, they wanted deregulation, low taxes, fiscal responsibility, and elimination of social programs, and liberals were for higher taxes, unrestrained spending, many socialist programs, managed economies, etc.
Like, I'm a libertarian, and up until the war I was a registered republican, but I decided that the actual libertarian party would better suit me. After a while I found their ideas to be unrealistic, so I've been independent ever since.
 

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FinnMacCool said:
No but I've come to expect that instead of you coming on here to flame, you would have given be an actual answer but I guess thats too hard for you.

I did kid-you asked me why they hate liberals. Having been a committee chairman for the libertarian party before you were born I am well versed at the reasons given for libertarians despising liberals. THE ISSUE IS NOT whether liberals really are as I said but how they ARE PERCEIVED and this was an accurate description of the perception. ITS like asking the moon bats why they hate Bush. Many will claim its because he stole the election or that he is stupid. While both of these claims are false and not supported by fact- it is not a lie to note that those two reasons motivate much of the BUsh hatred
 

ngdawg

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TurtleDude said:
I did kid-you asked me why they hate liberals. Having been a committee chairman for the libertarian party before you were born I am well versed at the reasons given for libertarians despising liberals. THE ISSUE IS NOT whether liberals really are as I said but how they ARE PERCEIVED and this was an accurate description of the perception. ITS like asking the moon bats why they hate Bush. Many will claim its because he stole the election or that he is stupid. While both of these claims are false and not supported by fact- it is not a lie to note that those two reasons motivate much of the BUsh hatred
To which the reply from someone whose profile includes 'loves to debate' was:
er...yeah whatever dude.:rofl :rofl :rofl

Sorry, nothing more to add, you explained it quite well, I just found that amazingly funny!:mrgreen:
 

TurtleDude

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I thought it was interesting-a kid starts trolling, I bite and then he chucks the rod into the surf. Guess he was trolling for trout and didn't want to deal with an Orca :mrgreen:
 

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Excuse me but liberatarians are not anarchists wannabes. Anarchists believe in no government!p
They aren't anarchists. They are anarchist wannabees. Of course they want some government, but almost none. If you left it up to them, you would have nothing running the government but the goodwill of a few people giving charity.



what a rude little flamer we have here-you prove everything I said was true.
Style over Substance Fallacy. Your going about your process backwards, on top of it.

Giving my money to whom I want hardly makes them parasites. what is the richest group that consistently supports the left in the USA?
Parasites: those who live off of others w/out contributing. You said liberals are, thus you are lying.

TRIAL LAWYERS-parasites in the traditional definition.
False Analogy Fallacy:

Actually, Trial lawers don't fit the definition of a parasite at all. They don't live on or in a host feeding off of it without contributing anything of value to the host. Lawyers work for their money and do give back to their clients. Nice ad hominem though against lawyers, O' Master of False analogies.

As to the gun issues-true some liberals aren't anti gun and some conservatives hate guns but the question was why libertarians hate liberals and since liberals staff, fund and are members of the main gun banning organizations my answer was valid
No, your answer was a hasty-generalization, since not all Libertarians hate liberals at all, and not all liberals support gun banning. Since not all libertarians hate liberals, and not all liberals hate guns, it is false to assume that liberals are hated by libertarians because of gun-banning. Most in fact, agree with the primary elements of the liberal social stances. Statistics suppor this from the Pew Research organization.

its amazing how the most insulting posters tend to be the kids who really have no clue what they speak of.
It's amazing how the whiners about insults know the least, yet pretend to know the most. I don't know what's scarier--the fact that you actualy believe the bullshit that's comming from your inane mouth or that you are probably lying.

You have lied on two grounds:

1. Liberals are parasites (not true, since most make more money than most other groups. It's one of the youngest, wealthiest groups in America, as well as the group with highest frequence of college educated.

2. Liberals are hated by Libertarians (false, really). Libertarians don't hate Liberals. They disagree with them on economics, but are usually closely associated with them on more than half of their social freedom agenda.

3. Liberals support gun legislation. Some do, some don't. Not all democrats are liberals, not all liberals are Democrats. Many other groups oppose gun legislation, many support it. Some gun legislation is bad, some is not.

Your claim about the drug laws is again a lie-the democratic party-the main roosting grounds for "liberals" in the USA-has never tried to overturn the idiotic war on drugs which got a major start in the FDR era and was increased under Nixon-BY A DEMOCRATIC controlled congress
Actually no, it's not a lie at all. Again, you commit a false dichotomy because you are artifically setting up ALL liberals = democrats, therefore, it major democrats are not fighting against it, they must all be for it. This is an unsupported assertion based on two grounds:

Most of the liberal voter typology is against drug legislation according to the preponderance of polls and voting statistics. The politicans are simply not doing their jobs because they have anti-drug interest groups tey have to cater too, much like conservatives cater to big corporation interest groups. Both democrats and republicans cater to big business and anti-drug interest groups. That does not mean the voters do.

1. You again claim that Democratic = Liberal, which is false. In reality, each party is divided into many diverse groups. Liberals are not all democrats; most are independents and unhappy with the democrats, but associate with them bcause the social and economic stances of the conservatives are diametrically opposed. The fact that democrats support gun legislation does not mean that all Liberals do, therefore, it's absurd to generalize all Liberals into that category, especially when Democrats cannot oppose gun legislation because various groups within the Democrats--the New Democrats and the populist groups--support it. These two groups are not "liberal."



Sorry, nothing more to add, you explained it quite well, I just found that amazingly funny!
Not really, he's an idiot child who is flapping his gums, but not actually procuring any thing of value as content. He's a partisan pundit; plain and simple, and your his little shoulder-parrot.
 

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some much stupidity in one post by a kid. You misunderstood the question. You want to debate whether liberals are how libertarians perceive them

Since you aren't a libertarian you really have nothing to add and your post is proof of that. Now run off and engage in your favorite pasttime rather than buggering the board with psychobabble:roll:
 

cnredd

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[Moderator mode]
:smash:

- GENERAL NOTICE -

Let's bring the civility of this thread up a few notches...

We have a forum called "The Basement" if some want to entertain the idea of name-calling and personal attacks...

Thank you...

[/Moderator mode]
 

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Good idea:2wave:
 

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I think Libertarians are a non-party. In all seriousness....have they ever had an original idea?

If Libertarians manage to get 2% of the vote, they seem to have a collective orgasm.

Ok....I'm slipping into my flame-retardent clothing now. LOL
 

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
Further, Capital/communists makes no sense. Do you have a point?

Who do you think financed the Bolshevik and other Socialist revolutions around the world?

MORGAN, ROCKEFELLER, WARBURG, ROTHSCHILD, CARNEGIE

Why?

CENTRAL BANK MONOPOLY

Here is a link to a free download-- video documentary, which explains how the International Bankers control the world.

PART 2 70 MB
PART 1 89 MB

Download part 1 first to watch from the begining.

http://www.archive.org/details/MoneyMasters


Enjoy!
 

TurtleDude

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Hoot said:
I think Libertarians are a non-party. In all seriousness....have they ever had an original idea?

If Libertarians manage to get 2% of the vote, they seem to have a collective orgasm.

Ok....I'm slipping into my flame-retardent clothing now. LOL

1) freedom goes back thousands of years and was accentuated by Locke et al so I guess you have a point

2) that's why I normally vote GOP
 

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To which the reply from someone whose profile includes 'loves to debate' was:
er...yeah whatever dude.

Sorry, nothing more to add, you explained it quite well, I just found that amazingly funny!
There wasn't anything to debate. All he posted was just a bunch of bullshit. And hey if you don't like the topic there is no reason for you to post in here cause I asked a very specific question and instead he tries to turn it into one of his liberal bashing threads.

Also you don't have to be a dick either. If any of you want to be dicks take a trip downstairs so I can tell you how I really feel about you :lol:
 

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Uh, excuse me, Grasshopper, but that was kind of the point of your question...to get a debate going between libertarians and liberals and you respond with a 'eh, whatever, dude' He answered exactly as your query was posed.....if you are a liberal, post a viable retort..that wasn't it, debate-lover. Instead, you come back with calling it 'bullshit' because it didn't fit your needs. Perhaps joining your high school debate team will show you what a debate IS.
You don't know me enough to form a true opinion and you didn't know how to come back to the original answer with one as well...
Gawd, I love kids....they're so....childish at times....Don't like the answers, you start with the namecalling and insults and then call it a debate...Get real...dude. I'll even help ya out a bit because I'm so nice.:mrgreen:
Liberal: favors political and social reforms
Libertarian: Believer of free will
These from The Oxford American Dictionary

Carry on...
 

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Actually I wanted to understand better about liberterians. Perhaps your getting a bit too used to people using threads as baits so they can throw mud at you? well thats not the truth. This forum is not only for debate but also for knowledge and not every thread has to have people talking **** about their opposistion..

I also have noted how you seem to feel superior to me somehow because you happen to be older and while I cannot quite grasp that concept since I so far have tried to act civil while all you guys did was do nothing but patronize me and attempt to insult me. Perhaps logging onto your computer, coming to a forum, and then making fun of people who are younger and merely wish to educate themselves gives you a sense of power or purpose? Why don't you just admit it. I give meaning to your life.
 
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