• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

How Bad Are Plastics, Really?

NWRatCon

Eco**Social Marketeer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
25,764
Reaction score
23,376
Location
PNW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
In recent years, the absence of federal regulation has prompted many States and local governments to start banning or restricting "single use" plastic bags that are filling our landfills and helping to create "the Great Garbage Patch" in the Pacific ocean. Efforts to do so in the past have been effectively blocked by the petrochemical industry. "Industry groups stymied New York City’s attempt at a two-cent bottle tax, and in the following decade beat back restrictions in nearby Suffolk County on polystyrene cups and other tossable plastics. Industry trade groups have even lobbied for states to preempt bans on plastic bags." How Bad Are Plastics, Really? (Atlantic)

The change, really, has been the realization that "plastics and climate aren’t separate issues. They are structurally linked problems, and also mutually compounding, with plastics’ facilities spewing climate-relevant emissions and extreme weather further dispersing plastic into the environment." The real world effects of climate change are being felt everywhere and it is becoming harder to deny or lobby away that reality. "Plastics are poised to dominate the 21st century as one of the yet-unchecked drivers of climate change." Indeed, "More plastics have been made over the past two decades than during the second half of the 20th century." For every metric ton of plastic made 1.89 metric tons of greenhouse gasses are produced.

Plastic is a double-whammy: bad being made, bad after use.
 
For the environment, they suck really, really bad.
The problem is they're just so useful and cheap and the alternatives are often not as good which is why it's taking so long to change peoples use habits.

It would help massively if it was all recyclable and everyone actually bothered to recycle.
 
For the environment, they suck really, really bad.
The problem is they're just so useful and cheap and the alternatives are often not as good which is why it's taking so long to change peoples use habits.

It would help massively if it was all recyclable and everyone actually bothered to recycle.
Recycling has a lot of its own issues, especially with plastic. Reducing and reusing should be the highest priority. People often forget those come before recycle.
 
Plastic is a double-whammy: bad being made, bad after use.

On the dashboard of my car, not so bad, but as a sack for carrying groceries or other items, awful.
When we moved into our latest home in 2014, the previous owners had left an old shopping cart behind.
The labels and other identifiers were either removed or worn off, so with no way of returning it to a store, it became ours.

So...grocery store, NO bags, wheel the items to the van, put in van, get home, transfer to the cart, wheel cart in house, done.
No bags needed.
So, we do not use plastic bags anymore...and if we didn't have that grocery cart we'd figure out an alternate because it's also
nice not to have to deal with all the plastic bags in the first place as far as garbage duty.

We've also cut way back on using plastic food containers as much as is practical.
And we NEVER drink plastic bottled water, not necessary, our filtration gives us very nice water, so we use metal bottles.

And by the way, I've never encountered plastic bottle drinking water that DIDN'T have a horrible plasticky taste anyway,
so even if plastic pollution wasn't a problem , I still despise the aftertaste in bottled water anyway.
I can't imagine what that stuff is doing to people who DO drink it.
We don't drink soda either.
 
The climate issue is like fans at a sporting event……….no one wants to be the first to sit down.

”If it’s really important, someone else will do something…..”
 
On the dashboard of my car, not so bad, but as a sack for carrying groceries or other items, awful.
When we moved into our latest home in 2014, the previous owners had left an old shopping cart behind.
The labels and other identifiers were either removed or worn off, so with no way of returning it to a store, it became ours.

So...grocery store, NO bags, wheel the items to the van, put in van, get home, transfer to the cart, wheel cart in house, done.
No bags needed.
So, we do not use plastic bags anymore...and if we didn't have that grocery cart we'd figure out an alternate because it's also
nice not to have to deal with all the plastic bags in the first place as far as garbage duty.

We've also cut way back on using plastic food containers as much as is practical.
And we NEVER drink plastic bottled water, not necessary, our filtration gives us very nice water, so we use metal bottles.

And by the way, I've never encountered plastic bottle drinking water that DIDN'T have a horrible plasticky taste anyway,
so even if plastic pollution wasn't a problem , I still despise the aftertaste in bottled water anyway.
I can't imagine what that stuff is doing to people who DO drink it.
We don't drink soda either.
I wish I were as environmentally conscious as I sound. I use reusable bags whenever I can, and refuse bags most of the time. But, we also use drive-up-and-go often (covid), so they always bag the groceries, typically in paper bags. Still, we have trash can liners, packaged goods (everything comes in plastic), and as the article points out, even "paper" cups and cartons use plastic in their construction. I wish I were closer to Burgerville - all of their packaging is compostable, and the burgers are great.
 
Plastics are incredibly useful. They're light, tough without being brittle, and if we could just find a way to sort them properly (microchips?) they're eminently recyclable.

Plastic bags on the other hand, are unnecessary, and until we find a way to recycle (or even reliably landfill) them, should always have a sale price to discourage frivolous use.

Until my favorite supermarket started charging for bags, I had no problem with them. Plastic bags are a low effort way to dispose of icky stuff like baby poo and wet paint. It's amazing what a difference having to pay for them makes.
 
On the dashboard of my car, not so bad, but as a sack for carrying groceries or other items, awful.
When we moved into our latest home in 2014, the previous owners had left an old shopping cart behind.
The labels and other identifiers were either removed or worn off, so with no way of returning it to a store, it became ours.

So...grocery store, NO bags, wheel the items to the van, put in van, get home, transfer to the cart, wheel cart in house, done.
No bags needed.
So, we do not use plastic bags anymore...and if we didn't have that grocery cart we'd figure out an alternate because it's also
nice not to have to deal with all the plastic bags in the first place as far as garbage duty.

We've also cut way back on using plastic food containers as much as is practical.
And we NEVER drink plastic bottled water, not necessary, our filtration gives us very nice water, so we use metal bottles.

And by the way, I've never encountered plastic bottle drinking water that DIDN'T have a horrible plasticky taste anyway,
so even if plastic pollution wasn't a problem , I still despise the aftertaste in bottled water anyway.
I can't imagine what that stuff is doing to people who DO drink it.
We don't drink soda either.
I find a big thing about plastic water bottles is the lack of places to refill reusable ones a lot of time in North America. When I lived in Switzerland there were free public fountains everywhere in suburbs, in parks, on hiking trails, train stations, you name it. And where there isn't one you can take water right from a lake or river because they are so clean there.
 
I find a big thing about plastic water bottles is the lack of places to refill reusable ones a lot of time in North America. When I lived in Switzerland there were free public fountains everywhere in suburbs, in parks, on hiking trails, train stations, you name it. And where there isn't one you can take water right from a lake or river because they are so clean there.

In the 1970's when I first moved to Minneapolis, a couple of the lakes in town were clean enough to drink from.
Don't know if that's still the case, but there's plenty of lakes up in Northern Minnesota which are still very clean.
 
Plastics are incredibly useful. They're light, tough without being brittle, and if we could just find a way to sort them properly (microchips?) they're eminently recyclable.

Plastic bags on the other hand, are unnecessary, and until we find a way to recycle (or even reliably landfill) them, should always have a sale price to discourage frivolous use.

Until my favorite supermarket started charging for bags, I had no problem with them. Plastic bags are a low effort way to dispose of icky stuff like baby poo and wet paint. It's amazing what a difference having to pay for them makes.

But the industry refuses to switch to biodegradeable stock, and people have indicated that they'd gladly pay a nickel for biodegradeable bags.
There's no real reason why they have to be made out of "forever" plastics, seeing as how their useful lifespan is often measured in minutes.
 
But the industry refuses to switch to biodegradeable stock, and people have indicated that they'd gladly pay a nickel for biodegradeable bags.
There's no real reason why they have to be made out of "forever" plastics, seeing as how their useful lifespan is often measured in minutes.

Sure. But it would be a big step forward if all thin "tossable" bags were just made of the same plastic.

Bigger plastic objects could literally have a microchip in them, allowing the plastics to be sorted by robots. There are some that won't melt, and won't reformulate with common chemicals, but at least they could go to landfill instead of wafting away.

Another idea that works some places is for home-owners to sort their own plastics. However to make that work in the US I think people would need to be paid to do it. Basically you have two or three compartments in the recycling bin, and on alternating weeks you load them up. I've never tried it myself.
 
Plastics as one use items are horrific. And unfortunately, most plastic - everything besides #1 and #2 are not recycled, and the

Plastics are basically the filet mignon of petroleum. You can't afford to make them cheaply unless you sell the shit out of the rest of the cow. Reducing our use of petroleum significantly, will help tilt the cost differential in favor of reuse, recyling, and widespread deployment of soy and corn based biodegrable/compostable plastics.


Plastic accounts for just over 12% of municipal solid waste by weight, but because it's so light, it's a huge percentage of the volume. The national recylcing rate for all plastics is under 10%. 10 ****ing percent.
 
NY has stopped the use of Plastic bags , Stores don't give them out any more
going back and forth to Fla. there is some time I have to remember where I am
in NY we recycle Bottles and cans and in Fla they just put them in the garbage.
so when I am in NY we collect our bottles and cans and return them and when in Fla just trash them, and where I am in Fla there isn't even a recycle center to take them to.
I would have thought Fla, would have been one of the first places to have deposits on Bottles and cans but I guess not
Have a nice night
 
NY has stopped the use of Plastic bags , Stores don't give them out any more
going back and forth to Fla. there is some time I have to remember where I am
in NY we recycle Bottles and cans and in Fla they just put them in the garbage.
so when I am in NY we collect our bottles and cans and return them and when in Fla just trash them, and where I am in Fla there isn't even a recycle center to take them to.
I would have thought Fla, would have been one of the first places to have deposits on Bottles and cans but I guess not
Have a nice night
Usually when traveling (especially in our RV) I carry all my recyclables with me, sorted by type. When we return home, I take them directly to the waste transfer station. Most places we travel to don't recycle at all, which irks me no end. At least at the transfer station I know they'll be recycled appropriately, and it's the only place to recycle some materials (only 1 & 2 plastics are recycled in our home bins, and glass has to be taken in directly, anyway). I admit carrying and sorting that stuff is a bother, but I just can't throw it away,
 
Don't even get @Hamish Howl started on this subject.

ETA: Whoops.
 
The climate issue is like fans at a sporting event……….no one wants to be the first to sit down.

”If it’s really important, someone else will do something…..”
Or it’s not really important and thus nothing needs to be done. I remember being sat down in school in the late 90s and being told ridiculous nonsense like Florida would be underwater by 2020 (I’m sure the liberals wish that were true) and there would be crop failures and blah blah blah.

Turns out it was a lie, and nearly everything the death cult said is a lie.
 
In recent years, the absence of federal regulation has prompted many States and local governments to start banning or restricting "single use" plastic bags that are filling our landfills and helping to create "the Great Garbage Patch" in the Pacific ocean. Efforts to do so in the past have been effectively blocked by the petrochemical industry. "Industry groups stymied New York City’s attempt at a two-cent bottle tax, and in the following decade beat back restrictions in nearby Suffolk County on polystyrene cups and other tossable plastics. Industry trade groups have even lobbied for states to preempt bans on plastic bags." How Bad Are Plastics, Really? (Atlantic)

The change, really, has been the realization that "plastics and climate aren’t separate issues. They are structurally linked problems, and also mutually compounding, with plastics’ facilities spewing climate-relevant emissions and extreme weather further dispersing plastic into the environment." The real world effects of climate change are being felt everywhere and it is becoming harder to deny or lobby away that reality. "Plastics are poised to dominate the 21st century as one of the yet-unchecked drivers of climate change." Indeed, "More plastics have been made over the past two decades than during the second half of the 20th century." For every metric ton of plastic made 1.89 metric tons of greenhouse gasses are produced.

Plastic is a double-whammy: bad being made, bad after use.
Greenhouse gases are not harmful in fact they’re necessary for life on the planet. Also you have to use reusable bags thousands of times to have a lower environmental impact than plastic bags, they’re recyclable, efficient, and take up no space when compacted in landfills
 
I don't recycle anything. I put everything in the same can. I even put motor oil and old electronics in the trash can.

Unless all of the environmentalist planet worshipping wackos are going to give up their cell phones, lap tops, cars, refriderators, and houses, and start living in huts made of animal skins and grass, then all of their worrying over plastic bags doesn't impress me.
 
Or it’s not really important and thus nothing needs to be done. I remember being sat down in school in the late 90s and being told ridiculous nonsense like Florida would be underwater by 2020 (I’m sure the liberals wish that were true) and there would be crop failures and blah blah blah.

Turns out it was a lie, and nearly everything the death cult said is a lie.
You spin the most fantastical of falsehoods on a regular basis. Such uproarious bullshit. It's really quite amusing.
 
Greenhouse gases are not harmful in fact they’re necessary for life on the planet.
Really. Please do explain how atmospheric methane is important for life on the planet.
Also you have to use reusable bags thousands of times to have a lower environmental impact than plastic bags,
Show your calculations.
they’re recyclable,
Recyclable but NOT recycled. And typically only #1 and #2 plastics. Try recylcing #6 polysytrene (styrofoam) or #3.
efficient,
Efficient how? One time use items are the apex of inefficiency.
and take up no space when compacted in landfills
But that's not where they end up. They really mess up ocean environments.
 
Really. Please do explain how atmospheric methane is important for life on the planet.

Show your calculations.

Recyclable but NOT recycled. And typically only #1 and #2 plastics. Try recylcing #6 polysytrene (styrofoam) or #3.

Efficient how? One time use items are the apex of inefficiency.

But that's not where they end up. They really mess up ocean environments.
The depth of his ignorance rivals the Marianas Trench.
 
In recent years, the absence of federal regulation has prompted many States and local governments to start banning or restricting "single use" plastic bags that are filling our landfills and helping to create "the Great Garbage Patch" in the Pacific ocean. Efforts to do so in the past have been effectively blocked by the petrochemical industry. "Industry groups stymied New York City’s attempt at a two-cent bottle tax, and in the following decade beat back restrictions in nearby Suffolk County on polystyrene cups and other tossable plastics. Industry trade groups have even lobbied for states to preempt bans on plastic bags." How Bad Are Plastics, Really? (Atlantic)

The change, really, has been the realization that "plastics and climate aren’t separate issues. They are structurally linked problems, and also mutually compounding, with plastics’ facilities spewing climate-relevant emissions and extreme weather further dispersing plastic into the environment." The real world effects of climate change are being felt everywhere and it is becoming harder to deny or lobby away that reality. "Plastics are poised to dominate the 21st century as one of the yet-unchecked drivers of climate change." Indeed, "More plastics have been made over the past two decades than during the second half of the 20th century." For every metric ton of plastic made 1.89 metric tons of greenhouse gasses are produced.

Plastic is a double-whammy: bad being made, bad after use.

There are two sides to every coin. On the one hand, very few of the plastics in our oceans are coming from the US. Rather, they are mostly coming from relatively poor countries with poor sanitation practices. If people were properly disposing of their plastics, the amount we use in the next 100 years could be disposed of in a relatively small area.

On the other hand, it's pretty disgusting how cavalier people are about using them. The amount of trash you get with one fast food meal is sometimes more volume than the food itself. I can't recount the number of times I've gone to a restaurant where I was served a glass of water I didn't ask for, with a straw I wouldn't have wanted even if I had asked for the water. And what's so difficult about bringing a few reusable grocery bags to the store with you, and using reusable food containers instead of disposable Ziploc bags to store your leftovers?
 
Back
Top Bottom