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How are humans different from robots?

Peralin

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I'm trying to figure this out, but I could use some help. Why do humans make the choices that they do? The brain processes information, and then somehow we think it out and decide. But is it possible to know what choice will be made before the processing begins? Is the brian just a complicated machine, or is it something more. Obviously, I don't expect to find a correct answer, but I want to find out what other people think.
 

liberal1

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There should be no choice, you just exist. To understand this, you must first understand the first principle of living, and I can not tell you that because you already know it. What should be and what are are not seperate identities, they are one (my very profound statement right there, being influenced a lot by Osho, who you can Google on Google.) Logic destroys what is, by dividing what should be, or what can be, or what can not be done. Logic forms false conclusions, so the brain can not be trusted. Politics are a great example of this, forming that liberals are sentimental and conservatives are practical if a little blunt. Even the divisions of "liberal" and "conservative" are results of the brain's set order, that can not be shaken, for your logic says it is invincible to rebewl agaisnt the idea.
 

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How are humans different from robots?



Robots.....Can't make Humans
 

cnredd

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Peralin said:
I'm trying to figure this out, but I could use some help. Why do humans make the choices that they do? The brain processes information, and then somehow we think it out and decide. But is it possible to know what choice will be made before the processing begins? Is the brian just a complicated machine, or is it something more. Obviously, I don't expect to find a correct answer, but I want to find out what other people think.
The difference is that humans can make present and future choices based on the past...the difference, in simple terms, is memory...

If a human puts his/her hand on a hot stove, his memory will remind him that it wouldn't be nice if they did it again...

A robot, based on his program, would either never do it, or continue to do it...until the program gets changed...

There's no memory involved for the robot to make that change on his own...
 

CaliNORML

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How are we different?

Emotion, socialization, concept, abstract, art, beauty, 5 senses, and we are able to not only deviate from our "program" we can write our own "code." Morals and ethics.


KMS
 

Engimo

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Peralin said:
I'm trying to figure this out, but I could use some help. Why do humans make the choices that they do? The brain processes information, and then somehow we think it out and decide. But is it possible to know what choice will be made before the processing begins? Is the brian just a complicated machine, or is it something more. Obviously, I don't expect to find a correct answer, but I want to find out what other people think.
I think the question being asked here is more along the lines of "What makes our brain special?", the answer to which is "Not all that much".

While we most definitely do not understand the processes governining the operation of our brains and the way that they work, most people are in agreement that the brain is a distributed network of neurons running in parallel. This is in stark contrast to the serial processors that we utilize in modern computers, but there is no reason that we will find ourselves unable to replicate the functions of a brain artificially provided that we come to understand the mechanisms behind its function.

So, yes, the brain is a complicated machine - but one that is different on a very fundamental level to modern computers.
 

Peralin

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Engimo said:
I think the question being asked here is more along the lines of "What makes our brain special?", the answer to which is "Not all that much".

While we most definitely do not understand the processes governining the operation of our brains and the way that they work, most people are in agreement that the brain is a distributed network of neurons running in parallel. This is in stark contrast to the serial processors that we utilize in modern computers, but there is no reason that we will find ourselves unable to replicate the functions of a brain artificially provided that we come to understand the mechanisms behind its function.

So, yes, the brain is a complicated machine - but one that is different on a very fundamental level to modern computers.

Ok, but does that mean that we have free will, or is it all pre-determined? Sure, we can decide on things. But what makes us choose what we do?

Memory is a good idea, but what if memory is just one of the many factors that determines our decision-making? Maybe there's a complicated system in our brain that determines our decision-making. Maybe the brain isjust a machine that processes information and truns it into a choice.

But if that's the case, are we all just robots?
 

Peralin

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CaliNORML said:
How are we different?

Emotion, socialization, concept, abstract, art, beauty, 5 senses, and we are able to not only deviate from our "program" we can write our own "code." Morals and ethics.


KMS

Maybe emotion is just a process of the brain. Maybe the setup of the brain determines whether we feel happy or sad.

Art and beauty?? Mybe they are simply genetic. Maybe all we are is genes and brain. It would suck, but it might be that way.

Of course, there is another option. Maybe there is a part of out brain that is us. Maybe there is a part of our decision-making that involves something else besides the brain. I don't know, I haven't heard of any evidence of such a thing. But I guess it's possible.
 

Engimo

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Peralin said:
Ok, but does that mean that we have free will, or is it all pre-determined? Sure, we can decide on things. But what makes us choose what we do?

Memory is a good idea, but what if memory is just one of the many factors that determines our decision-making? Maybe there's a complicated system in our brain that determines our decision-making. Maybe the brain isjust a machine that processes information and truns it into a choice.

But if that's the case, are we all just robots?
What makes us choose what we do is entirely governed by physical processes - but the caveat is that the subatomic world is non-deterministic. There is an inherent quantum randomness that applies to all interactions on the subatomic level. What this translates to is the fact that, even if you had a model of someone's brain that was exact on a macroscopic, neurological level, it would not necessarily act the same way as the corresponding real brain.
 

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Peralin said:
Maybe emotion is just a process of the brain. Maybe the setup of the brain determines whether we feel happy or sad.

Art and beauty?? Mybe they are simply genetic. Maybe all we are is genes and brain. It would suck, but it might be that way.

Of course, there is another option. Maybe there is a part of out brain that is us. Maybe there is a part of our decision-making that involves something else besides the brain. I don't know, I haven't heard of any evidence of such a thing. But I guess it's possible.
Certain processes are ingrained, maternal instinct, the fear of snakes.

If the origin of our emotions is not in the brain where is it?

Why must us humans view the "mind" and seperate from the "brain"? "You think with your heart instead of your head," when the head is the place emotions begin, physically originate. Shouldn't Prozac and the other frontal brain medications so prevelant today in medicine tell us this?

If Art and Beauty are genetic, they are part of our evolution as a species.

The classic tale of "A Christmas Carol" shows us this decision making model on something not based in only "brain." What course to survival is most prudent? To hoard? To earn only for oneself and forget the others? Seems a wise decision to survive.

Yet to make a decision to give to another, maybe making him stronger than yourself, and to decide to do it anyway. Not directly for a benifit to self, although there is one. For the benifit of another over yourself. Survival is selfish, to decide and act in a way counter to that is not pure instinct.

This thought overcomes the lower animal, to kill, eat, fight, reproduce, all to live mentality. A computer would seek out the best way to live based on a drive to survive, no remorse.

No emotion, which causes humans to go against the nature of the cycle we see, and these actions do indeed define "humanity."

KMS
 
T

The Real McCoy

Engimo said:
What makes us choose what we do is entirely governed by physical processes - but the caveat is that the subatomic world is non-deterministic. There is an inherent quantum randomness that applies to all interactions on the subatomic level.
Is it truly random or do we just not understand the underlying principle of quantum mechanics yet? Me thinks it's the latter.
 

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The Real McCoy said:
Is it truly random or do we just not understand the underlying principle of quantum mechanics yet? Me thinks it's the latter.
An unfounded statement. From what we can gather, the quantum mechanical properties of subatomic particles are truly random. There is absolutely no way whatsoever to determine where an electron was before you measured its position, and no way to tell where it's going to be at any time in the future - it really is random.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Engimo said:
An unfounded statement. From what we can gather, the quantum mechanical properties of subatomic particles are truly random. There is absolutely no way whatsoever to determine where an electron was before you measured its position, and no way to tell where it's going to be at any time in the future - it really is random.
It wasn't an unfounded statement. You said it right there, from what we can gather.
 

Engimo

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The Real McCoy said:
It wasn't an unfounded statement. You said it right there, from what we can gather.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that there's any basis for you to say "Well, that might not be the case." Until you've got some way of violating the Uncertainty Principle or some evidence that points towards it not holding, it is unfounded.

I could just have easily said, "From what we can gather, the sun is a giant ball of plasma.", does that mean that we shouldn't consider it to be true?
 
T

The Real McCoy

Engimo said:
Yes, but that doesn't mean that there's any basis for you to say "Well, that might not be the case." Until you've got some way of violating the Uncertainty Principle or some evidence that points towards it not holding, it is unfounded.
No, my statement would have been unfounded had I declared that there was no randomness at all. I merely questioned the idea that the behavior of subatomic particles is truly random because of yet unknown variables.
 

kal-el

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Peralin said:
Ok, but does that mean that we have free will, or is it all pre-determined? Sure, we can decide on things. But what makes us choose what we do?
According to the bible god, people cannot do anything to alter their destiny, so they don't have "free-will".

Memory is a good idea, but what if memory is just one of the many factors that determines our decision-making? Maybe there's a complicated system in our brain that determines our decision-making. Maybe the brain isjust a machine that processes information and truns it into a choice.

But if that's the case, are we all just robots?
That basically sums it up.
 

Kandahar

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cnredd said:
The difference is that humans can make present and future choices based on the past...the difference, in simple terms, is memory...

If a human puts his/her hand on a hot stove, his memory will remind him that it wouldn't be nice if they did it again...

A robot, based on his program, would either never do it, or continue to do it...until the program gets changed...

There's no memory involved for the robot to make that change on his own...
That's not entirely true. In fact, memory is the primary way computers learn from their mistakes in games such as chess.
 

Engimo

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Kandahar said:
That's not entirely true. In fact, memory is the primary way computers learn from their mistakes in games such as chess.
Actually, most chess playing computers don't use any evolutionary algorithms at all. They simply brute force all of the permutations of future movements and select the one that leads to the most advantageous solution - there's no actual learning going on. The ability of a computer to play chess well is based mostly on its massive computational power.
 

Kandahar

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So far, none of the differences that people have mentioned are FUNDAMENTAL differences; they're just examples of where current computer technology is inferior to human thought. There's no fundamental reason that computers can't socialize, be creative, or learn from their mistakes...just like humans.

In short, there are no fundamental differences between humans and sufficiently complex robots. Too often, people ask the wrong questions about artificial intelligence. Instead of wondering whether robots could actually think, or if they could "only" run complex programs, we should question whether any such distinction actually exists. The human brain "only" runs a complex program too.
 

Kandahar

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Engimo said:
Actually, most chess playing computers don't use any evolutionary algorithms at all. They simply brute force all of the permutations of future movements and select the one that leads to the most advantageous solution - there's no actual learning going on. The ability of a computer to play chess well is based mostly on its massive computational power.
Yes, the ability to PLAY CHESS WELL is mainly due to brute force. But the ability to LEARN FROM MISTAKES comes mainly from the program remembering similar situations in the past. The chess programs that are able to compete with grandmasters usually do both.
 

Engimo

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Kandahar said:
So far, none of the differences that people have mentioned are FUNDAMENTAL differences; they're just examples of where current computer technology is inferior to human thought. There's no fundamental reason that computers can't socialize, be creative, or learn from their mistakes...just like humans.

In short, there are no fundamental differences between humans and sufficiently complex robots. Too often, people ask the wrong questions about artificial intelligence. Instead of wondering whether robots could actually think, or if they could "only" run complex programs, we should question whether any such distinction actually exists. The human brain "only" runs a complex program too.
Exactly. I like what Daniel Dennett has to say about all of this.

"The first stable conclusion I reached … was that the only thing brains could do was to approximate the responsivity to meanings that we presuppose in our everyday mentalistic discourse. When mechanical push comes to shove, a brain was always going to do what it was caused to do by current, local, mechanical circumstances, whatever it ought to do, whatever a God's-eye view might reveal about the actual meaning of its current states. But over the long haul, brains could be designed - by evolutionary processes - to do the right thing (from the point of view of meaning) with high reliability. … rains are syntactic engines that can mimic the competence of semantic engines. … The appreciation of meanings - their discrimination and delectation - is central to our vision of consciousness, but this conviction that I, on the inside, deal directly with meanings turns out to be something rather like a benign "user-illusion".
 
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