Houston police respond with violence to striking janitors' non-violent protest (1 Viewer)

[danarhea]

Note: The only link I have been able to find is from the Janitors' Union web site, which I can testify is biased. I will show why in the course of this post.

I have mixed feelings on this.

1) A union has the right to go on strike.

2) Caveat - Demonstrations must be peaceful. Fact - The demonstrators were tying up downtown Houston, preventing people from going to their jobs, or conducting business. This is clearly illegal.

3) Caveat - Strikers must be legal residents of the United States. Fact - Many in this union are illegal aliens. Not only that, but I have personally seen some of them flying a Mexican flag at the protest, which drew 5,000 protesters.

4) Caveat - The actions of the Union leadership must also be legal. Fact- The Janitors' and Hotel Workers' unions have stated that they plan to shut down the economy of Houston, TX, and have brought in many people from out of state, and also a few from Mexico to act as thugs.

The response by the Houston Police Department - They trampled the strikers with their horses. At first glance, this will be appalling actions to many, but what is not being shown by the spinmeisters is that the Houston Police acted because of threats of violence from the strikers. If the demonstrators had demonstrated peacefully, I would have been on their side and called for an investigation into police brutality. However, they didnt. I can personally testify to that, since I could not drive into the Galleria area on Thursday to pick up a present I bought for my wife. The strikers had the whole area shut down, and were blocking all the streets in the area. They were having a big party right in the middle of Westheimer near the Loop, and you could hear Tejano music being blasted from blocks away.

Sorry strikers, but I am on the side of the police this time. Conduct yourselves lawfully in the future, and you might win my support. Conduct yourselves as you have been doing, and you will get absolutely no sympathy from me. And finally, no matter how you conduct yourselves, I refuse to give support to an organization which supports illegal aliens who broke the law so they could break the law again by protesting in an illegal manner.

My suggestion - Decertify the union, shut it down, send the illegals back to Mexico, and fine Chevron, who is the union's biggest client.

Article is here.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Sorry strikers, but I am on the side of the police this time. Conduct yourselves lawfully in the future, and you might win my support. Conduct yourselves as you have been doing, and you will get absolutely no sympathy from me. And finally, no matter how you conduct yourselves, I refuse to give support to an organization which supports illegal aliens who broke the law so they could break the law again by protesting in an illegal manner.

My suggestion - Decertify the union, shut it down, send the illegals back to Mexico, and fine Chevron, who is the union's biggest client.

Article is here.

I agree. I normally support unions and strikes, provided, as you say, that they are peaceful, and as a former janitor, my heart is certainly with these guys.

But you need to use the strike to inconvenience your employers, not average people. You need to show that you have power, that you are necessary to the proper functioning of the company. I think it perfectly reasonable to demonstrate in public areas in order to garner support for your cause -- but you shouldn't have any right to snarl traffic and inconvenience people who are uninvolved in the struggle. Trying to do this says to me that they are impatient; refusing to wait until the company gives in to their strike, they are trying to bother other people to increase outside pressure on the company. And I have to say, janitors have a hell of a lot of power over a company if they can manage a strike properly. If they can keep offices and places of business from being cleaned and properly maintained, they can very nearly shut a company down inside a month after all the toilet paper has gone and the lightbulbs are all burned out. That should be their protest -- not screwing up downtown Houston.

So I agree that the strike leaders should be arrested and tried for threatening violence and obstructing traffic and everything else they can throw at them -- inciting a riot seems an obvious one, if police had to use riot tactics to deal with them. But I'm not sure that the union should be broken up or the company fined; why should all the workers pay for this? Why should the company pay for this?

 

[tecoyah]

1)Institute a Military Draft, starting with only Illegal Aliens in the United States

2)Send all newly drafted soldiers to Iraq for "Peacekeeping".

3)Allow any who survive to return as Citizens after a five year tour.

Kill Two birds with one Big A$$ Stone

 

[LeftyHenry]

danarhea,

you're spinning the truth yourself. It seems you're making things up like "the strikers threatened the police."

 

[CoffeeSaint]

1)Institute a Military Draft, starting with only Illegal Aliens in the United States

2)Send all newly drafted soldiers to Iraq for "Peacekeeping".

3)Allow any who survive to return as Citizens after a five year tour.

Kill Two birds with one Big A$$ Stone

That would work if there was any way you could trust a conscripted illegal alien to do his duty. If you made it voluntary, you'd have something -- but that might encourage more illegal immigration, no? You'd have to make sure the service was horrible enough to keep it from seeming an easy road to citizenship.

 

[jujuman13]

Quote by LEFTY HENRY
(you're spinning the truth yourself. It seems you're making things up like "the strikers threatened the police.")

I kinda just knew that if you poked your view in, that you would immediately be on the side of those who are on strike.
What I actually know is that when folk strike in any, yes I do mean any COMMUNIST controlled country, the strikers are labelled as TRAITORS to the COMMUNIST STATE and are sent to some prison if they are lucky.

If these strikers had not threatened to shut down Houston but had kept the strike peaceful, there would have been no action from the Police.
In any case, even if they are arrested for causing a disturbance, their lives are not in danger, they will not be sent to some gulag or forced slave labor camp.

The problem with those who think themselves COMMUNIST is that they are not remotely interested in Democracy in any shape or form.

Best bet for you is to go live in an openly COMMUNIST state such as North Korea.

I am willing to bet you would not last a week before begging to be allowed back from whence you came.

Of course you already know this, don't you?

 

[danarhea]

danarhea,

you're spinning the truth yourself. It seems you're making things up like "the strikers threatened the police."

Easy for you to say, since you are not here. I, however, AM here. Not only do I drive through that area on the way to work, but I also live just a couple of miles from there. Throwing vegetables at police cars IS violence, and that I have seen at least twice. One of those who hit 2 police cars what appeared to be tomatoes then grabbed his crotch with one hand and flipped the cops the finger with the other hand. He was one of those in the crowd which was flying the Mexican flag.

 

[jujuman13]

How strange, LEFTY HENRY does not respond to my post.

 

[LeftyHenry]

How strange, LEFTY HENRY does not respond to my post.

How strange I'm not constantly on DP :roll:

I kinda just knew that if you poked your view in, that you would immediately be on the side of those who are on strike.
What I actually know is that when folk strike in any, yes I do mean any COMMUNIST controlled country, the strikers are labelled as TRAITORS to the COMMUNIST STATE and are sent to some prison if they are lucky.

There is no such thing as a communist state but that's beside the point. If they don't like their lving conditions they (let's use Cuba) can go live in neighboring capitalist counties like the Dominican Republic or Haiti where they've almost invented the wheel and workers are slaves living in houses made of sand of mud.

Of course you ignore the fact that workers in socialist countries have had much better living conditions that workers in their capitalist counter-parts.

If these strikers had not threatened to shut down Houston but had kept the strike peaceful, there would have been no action from the Police.
In any case, even if they are arrested for causing a disturbance, their lives are not in danger, they will not be sent to some gulag or forced slave labor camp.

The problem with those who think themselves COMMUNIST is that they are not remotely interested in Democracy in any shape or form.

Best bet for you is to go live in an openly COMMUNIST state such as North Korea.

I am willing to bet you would not last a week before begging to be allowed back from whence you came.

You are quite ignorant if you actually think North Korea is communist. Have you read Marx? No? Okay then.

Of course I care about democracy, if you look at any truly socialist state that has exsisted, they have had democracy. Where do you think the word "soviet" came from? It was the Russia word used to describe worker councils and collectives which would send representitives to the national parliament to legislate issues. FYI my experience in Cuba was one of the things that turned me to socialism.

 

[danarhea]

How strange I'm not constantly on DP :roll:



There is no such thing as a communist state but that's beside the point. If they don't like their lving conditions they (let's use Cuba) can go live in neighboring capitalist counties like the Dominican Republic or Haiti where they've almost invented the wheel and workers are slaves living in houses made of sand of mud.

Of course you ignore the fact that workers in socialist countries have had much better living conditions that workers in their capitalist counter-parts.



You are quite ignorant if you actually think North Korea is communist. Have you read Marx? No? Okay then.

Of course I care about democracy, if you look at any truly socialist state that has exsisted, they have had democracy. Where do you think the word "soviet" came from? It was the Russia word used to describe worker councils and collectives which would send representitives to the national parliament to legislate issues. FYI my experience in Cuba was one of the things that turned me to socialism.

When I was still at the University of Houston, my physics instructor one day told our class about when he went to Antarctica. There was also a Soviet team there, and both teams were working together on a project. When they were getting ready to come home, via Sydney Australia, one of the US team asked one of the Russians if he wanted to check out the city. The Russian replied that the Soviets members did not do anything on their own, but all acts were done together, as one entity. He then said "We are a Democracy, you know".

Having told you this story, I must ask you how you can bandy about the word "Democracy" to describe the Soviet Union, when the meaning of the word differs so much between us, them, and other cultures as well. Democracy can be a relative word. Did you know that the ayatollahs of Iran have their own definition of Democracy also? Would you claim that they are also right? And what about Iran under the butcher Shah? he claimed that Iran was a Democracy too. Hitler claimed that Nazi Germany was a Christian nation. Would you also claim that he was right?

 

[LeftyHenry]

When I was still at the University of Houston, my physics instructor one day told our class about when he went to Antarctica. There was also a Soviet team there, and both teams were working together on a project. When they were getting ready to come home, via Sydney Australia, one of the US team asked one of the Russians if he wanted to check out the city. The Russian replied that the Soviets members did not do anything on their own, but all acts were done together, as one entity. He then said "We are a Democracy, you know".

Having told you this story, I must ask you how you can bandy about the word "Democracy" to describe the Soviet Union, when the meaning of the word differs so much between us, them, and other cultures as well. Democracy can be a relative word. Did you know that the ayatollahs of Iran have their own definition of Democracy also? Would you claim that they are also right? And what about Iran under the butcher Shah? he claimed that Iran was a Democracy too. Hitler claimed that Nazi Germany was a Christian nation. Would you also claim that he was right?

Unity is a good thing. It comes from Democratic Centralism which was Lenin's idea on how a party should be organized. First debate. Then decide collectivly. Then make the descision and act/stay on the 'party line'.

Soviet Democracy was very different than the bourgieous liberal democracy we have here. When I was in Cuba, Cubans laughed at the prospect of American democracy and claimed it was a complete joke; 95%+ of our leaders are upper class, very few if any leaders in our history are 'truly of the people.'

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

How strange I'm not constantly on DP :roll:



There is no such thing as a communist state but that's beside the point. If they don't like their lving conditions they (let's use Cuba) can go live in neighboring capitalist counties like the Dominican Republic or Haiti where they've almost invented the wheel and workers are slaves living in houses made of sand of mud.

Or better yet compare Cuba to a comprable country; such as, Chile or even better compare North Korea to South Korea or compare the Western Bloc to the Eastern Bloc.

You are quite ignorant if you actually think North Korea is communist. Have you read Marx? No? Okay then.

The Economic Foundations of Freedom​

What makes many people blind to the essential features of any socialist or totalitarian system is the illusion that this system will be operated precisely in the way which they themselves consider as desirable. In supporting socialism, they take it for granted that the "state" will always do what they themselves want it to do. They call only that brand of totalitarianism "true," "real," or "good" socialism the rulers of which comply with their own ideas. All other brands they decry as counterfeit. What they first of all expect from the dictator is that he will suppress all those ideas of which they themselves disapprove. In fact, all these supporters of socialism are, unbeknown to themselves, obsessed by the dictatorial or authoritarian complex. They want all opinions and plans with which they disagree to be crushed by violent action on the part of the government. -- Ludwig Von Mises

Of course I care about democracy, if you look at any truly socialist state that has exsisted, they have had democracy. Where do you think the word "soviet" came from? It was the Russia word used to describe worker councils and collectives which would send representitives to the national parliament to legislate issues. FYI my experience in Cuba was one of the things that turned me to socialism.

Oh please inform us as to the Democratic grass roots instiututions of the CDR's once again AKA Castro's secret police and spy network:

DECENTRALIZATION, LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND CITIZEN PARTICIPATION IN CUBA
Nelson Amaro​

The CDR officials have the duty to know the activities
of each person in their respective blocks. There is
an individual file kept on each block resident, some
of which reveal the internal dynamics of households.
For this reason Maida Donate-Armada (1996) says
that “perhaps the greatest contribution (of the
CDRs) to the history of world espionage may be to
have raised to the level of counterintelligence the daily
gossip (chismes) and disagreements (bretes) that go
on at the neighborhood level. Citizens must be careful
of their actions and of what they say, as they are
being constantly monitored by the block CDR.

The structure consists of a president, vice-president,
a treasurer, an organizer, an official responsible for
the work force, and another for ideological control.
CDRs all include an important component, referred
to as the CDR Vigilance and Public Order Front
(Vigilancia y Orden Público). After the September
1986 CDR Congress, a special component (front)
was introduced to assist those young people who neither
work nor study. This division of the CDR is referred
to as the Prevention and Education Front.
This front notifies the police department of all pertinent
information regarding young people who are
neither in school nor working.

CDR characteristics probably vary according to population
size, prevalence of common crime or acts
against the state, extremism of the CDR authorities,
educational level, etc. An important variable is the
lack of commitment of the rank and file at the local
level.

Militancy in CDRs is interchangeable with other organizations
such as the FMC, the Communist Party,
or the League of Young Communists. Any militant
of the Party or of the Youth must show that he or she
is a member of the CDRs and/or FMC. These last
two organizations, together with the Party and the
Youth are the most active at the local level. The statutes
of the Cuban Communist Party of Cuba, Chapter
VIII, Article 73, states:

“The Party guides and directs the work of the mass
and social organizations, based on the principle of full
and conscious acceptance of its leadership role and of
the influence its members and aspirants have in the
mass organizations, while recognizing the organic independence
of those organizations.”19


Within each block, there is one other agent who
deals indirectly with the CDRs: this person reports
directly to an officer of the security apparatus of the
Ministry of Interior. Very rarely are the secret duties
of this person known to other block citizens or CDR
officials. In order for a CDR official to be informed
of the duties of this person, there must be a working
relationship on a particular case.

19. As quoted in Ritter (1985, p. 277).
The organization of the CDRs by sectors and blocks
follows the national-regional-province-municipalityzone-
sector-block pyramid structure. The sector controller
holds a full-time job. They patrol on foot
since they do not have other means of transportation.
Their work hours might vary from 9:00 a.m. to as
late as 11:00 p.m. Most of them do not even live in
the sectors they patrol. The president of the CDR
provides all pertinent information to the sector controller.
Frequently, however, the sector controller
does not trust the CDR president and usually verifies
this information with VOP Front Officials.

If enough evidence of wrongdoing is found regarding
a particular citizen, the sector controller meets with
that individual. Three warnings are given to each citizen,
with the first two given in written form. After
one warning, the citizen’s file is classified as category
A; after two warnings, as B. The third warning results
in the arrest of the citizen and classification of his or
her file as category C.

There are national, provincial, municipal, and zone
meetings for all CDR presidents, who then pass on
the information to their block officials and citizens.
The VOP Front consists of people who have shown
extreme loyalty to the revolution, and who are willing
to go to great means to discover wrongdoing.
The background of the Front officials varies from retirees
to people who have served in international missions.
The ideological control person usually has a
college degree.

As is depicted in Figure 1, the Ministry of Interior
and the CDRs have parallel structures. Security bodies
(intelligence and counterintelligence) and police
back-stop this mass organization. Designation of officials
for different posts within CDRs, especially for
being in charge of “vigilance,” are subject to consultation
with the MININT officer in charge.

This network in turn is linked to the chiefs of “defense
zones” and territorial militia, which are the
lower layer of the so-called “Republic of Cuba’s
Unique System of Exploration” and the mobilization
chain for any war action. “Defense zones” are in
charge of evacuating the civil population and destroying
cities and towns if the socialist system is in
danger. These activities are connected to the Ministry
of Armed Forces.

There are “Voluntary Brigades of Activists” that are
mobilized according to instructions of the state security
apparatus. The Brigades are sometimes called
into action by the police. They are the direct antecedent
of the so-called “Brigadas de Respuesta Rápida”
(Quick Response Brigades) that hold “repudiation
meetings” in front of the homes of undesirable
neighbors, sometimes when it is known that they
plan to leave the island. The Brigades are a sort of
para-military organization backed by the Cuban authorities
established for the purpose of harassing and
fighting—physically sometimes, with sticks, bricks,
and hammers—dissident neighbors and families.

The notion of civil society is alien to the policies that
the Cuban leadership is pursuing at present. The theories
of “transmission belts” and an “enlightened
vanguard” suit more closely regime’s goals and
modus operandi. The essence of civil society lies in
the possibility that social groups could be autonomous,
particularly from military and government tutelage
and control. This is impossible in today’s Cuban
society. The leadership has a horizontal
circulation system that allows the same faces and
names to transfer from government to mass organizations
to military positions. This revolving system has
been operating for 36 years.

The Party, the State and mass organizations are intertwined.
To claim that Cuban mass organizations represent
civil society is to deny that the latter has any
right to exist as an independent force. This is the
kind of participation Nazi and fascist regimes encourage,
together with the “personality cult” of the
leader. The revolutionary leadership and the leader
himself have designed a totalitarian society; changes
to the control mechanisms and reforms are attempts
to strengthen this grip.

http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/a...36amaro.fm.pdf

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Unity is a good thing. It comes from Democratic Centralism which was Lenin's idea on how a party should be organized. First debate. Then decide collectivly. Then make the descision and act/stay on the 'party line'.

Soviet Democracy was very different than the bourgieous liberal democracy we have here. When I was in Cuba, Cubans laughed at the prospect of American democracy and claimed it was a complete joke; 95%+ of our leaders are upper class, very few if any leaders in our history are 'truly of the people.'

It wasn't a ****ing Democracy by any stretch of the imagination it was totalitarian state as is Cuba.

 

[jamesrage]

Note: The only link I have been able to find is from the Janitors' Union web site, which I can testify is biased. I will show why in the course of this post.

I have mixed feelings on this.

1) A union has the right to go on strike.

2) Caveat - Demonstrations must be peaceful. Fact - The demonstrators were tying up downtown Houston, preventing people from going to their jobs, or conducting business. This is clearly illegal.

3) Caveat - Strikers must be legal residents of the United States. Fact - Many in this union are illegal aliens. Not only that, but I have personally seen some of them flying a Mexican flag at the protest, which drew 5,000 protesters.

4) Caveat - The actions of the Union leadership must also be legal. Fact- The Janitors' and Hotel Workers' unions have stated that they plan to shut down the economy of Houston, TX, and have brought in many people from out of state, and also a few from Mexico to act as thugs.

The response by the Houston Police Department - They trampled the strikers with their horses. At first glance, this will be appalling actions to many, but what is not being shown by the spinmeisters is that the Houston Police acted because of threats of violence from the strikers. If the demonstrators had demonstrated peacefully, I would have been on their side and called for an investigation into police brutality. However, they didnt. I can personally testify to that, since I could not drive into the Galleria area on Thursday to pick up a present I bought for my wife. The strikers had the whole area shut down, and were blocking all the streets in the area. They were having a big party right in the middle of Westheimer near the Loop, and you could hear Tejano music being blasted from blocks away.

Sorry strikers, but I am on the side of the police this time. Conduct yourselves lawfully in the future, and you might win my support. Conduct yourselves as you have been doing, and you will get absolutely no sympathy from me. And finally, no matter how you conduct yourselves, I refuse to give support to an organization which supports illegal aliens who broke the law so they could break the law again by protesting in an illegal manner.

My suggestion - Decertify the union, shut it down, send the illegals back to Mexico, and fine Chevron, who is the union's biggest client.

Article is here.

I agree,unions do have a right to strike.Alot of times they do some good,but when they got illegals in them it just makes the other unions out there look bad.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Or better yet compare Cuba to a comprable country; such as, Chile or even better compare North Korea to South Korea or compare the Western Bloc to the Eastern Bloc.

North Korea is by no stretch socialist. The western bloc vs. the Eastern block is irrelevent as the eastern bloc had no infarstructure left after the war because the eastern front was open longer and was a far more vicious front. France before the war was a wealthy country. Czechoslovakia for example, was not (despite it also being capitalist). It was faced with the task of industrializing extremly fast which it did. A fairer comparison would be before & after.

Cuba and Chile is a semi-fair comparison.

Cubans Undernourished = 2%
Chileans Undernourished = 4%

Chileans using improved sanitation facilities = 91%
[URL=http://mdgs.un.org/unsd/mdg/SeriesDetail.aspx?srid=668&crid=192]Cubans using improved sanitation facilities = 98%

Chilean Infant Mortality Rate = 8%
Cuban Infant Mortality Rate = 6%

In basic standards of living, Cuba pretty much keeps up with Chile if its not better. Keep in mind, Cuba has had a massive embargo against it, while Chile has not.

Oh please inform us as to the Democratic grass roots instiututions of the CDR's once again AKA Castro's secret police and spy network:

That article says nothing other than overdramaticized version of people in the community watch block know who is on the block. The same is true here. It is no secret gustapo like you try to make it sound. In fact the CDRs are democratic institutions which elect their presidents freely and participate in projects like blood drives, enviromental programs, vaccinations, and of course community block barbeques. They are by no means mandatory but about 8 million Cubans out of 11 million are part of it. Please explain how 8 million cubans can be the gustapo of 3 million?