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House votes to restrict Confederate flag in national cemeteries[W:707]

joG said:
If citizens think that displaying a historical flag expresses, what they want to state politically? It seems worth fighting to make sure they can.
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So true.

Liberals claim to be the standard bearers for the first amendment. If they really believe that, then they should be supporting the rights for things they disagree with as well.
 
TheGoverness said:
There was a variety of issues and factors that caused the American Civil War, all of which revolved around the issue of slavery.
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All?

Isn't revisionist history by the victors sweet to the blissfully ignorant...
 
Lord of Planar said:
All?

Isn't revisionist history by the victors sweet to the blissfully ignorant...
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"States Rights" back then was a code word for "we don't want to do this because we'll lose money"

Look at what Rhode Island did during the War of 1812, for instance.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
In other words, if you wanna go fly that symbol of racism and slavery - .....
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That symbol of racism and slavery is a symbol of racism and slavery only by inference, and you own your inferences. To somebody else that flag may represent an attempt to gain freedom to separate, brutally ended by the Union.

Slavery is nothing else than a handy excuse for the mayhem. The "civil" war was about forcing disobedient states back onto the plantation, and about more cheap labor being available for the factories in the Northern states. When money is involved, all that noble crap is just that - a bs fed in the American schools to cover the true reasons.

Now, Russia wants their ex-republics back, and the U.S. goes apes*** at the thought. Isn't hypocrisy fun to watch?
 
Lord of Planar said:
The civil war didn't start because of slavery. It started because of 10th amendment issues outside of slavery.
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That's the oldest lie about the Civil War. I believed it, too...because that's what I'd always been told as I was growing up in the Delta. It was "The War of Northern Aggression" against the Southern economy, against state's rights...and we all believed it.

Until I read what was never shown to me in school in Mississippi. From Mississippi's Articles of Secession:

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin."

Here's a list of the rest of the Confderacy's states' articles of secession...and again and again, it's all about slavery. Oh, several of them are cloaked in "state's rights"...but the one single common thread about "violation of state's rights" concerns slavery.

From the Confederacy's vice president Alexander Stephens "cornerstone speech":

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

From a speech by soon-to-be president of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis, to the Mississippi legislature:

"(Senator and abolitionist Seward) seeks to alarm his auditors by assuring them of the purpose on the part of the South and the Democratic to force slavery upon all the States of the Union. Absurd as all this may seem to you, and incredulous as you may be of its acceptance by any intelligent portion of the citizens of the United States, I have reason to believe that it has been inculcated to no small extent in the Northern mind.

"It requires but a cursory examination of the Constitution of the United States; but a partial knowledge of its history and of the motives of the men who formed it, to see how utterly fallacious it is to ascribe to them the purpose of interfering with the domestic institutions of any of the States. But if a disrespect for that instrument, a fanatical disregard of its purposes, should ever induce a majority, however large, to seek by amending the Constitution, to pervert it from its original object, and to deprive you of the quality which your fathers bequeathed to you, I say let the star of Mississippi be snatched from the constellation to shine by its inherent light, if it must be so, through all the storms and clouds of war.

The Civil War was about slavery. I didn't believe it at first...but it is true. And the words of the leaders of the Confederacy themselves prove it.
 
legalimmigrant said:
That symbol of racism and slavery is a symbol of racism and slavery only by inference, and you own your inferences. To somebody else that flag may represent an attempt to gain freedom to separate, brutally ended by the Union.

Slavery is nothing else than a handy excuse for the mayhem. The "civil" war was about forcing disobedient states back onto the plantation, and about more cheap labor being available for the factories in the Northern states. When money is involved, all that noble crap is just that - a bs fed in the American schools to cover the true reasons.

Now, Russia wants their ex-republics back, and the U.S. goes apes*** at the thought. Isn't hypocrisy fun to watch?
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Look at reply #31 - in the words of the leaders of the Confederacy, yeah, the Civil War WAS about slavery...and I think Jefferson Davis would have known better than you as to why they went to war.
 
Lord of Planar said:
I see you would fail a constitutional class. The 10th amendment says items not specified in the constitution should be left to lower level government. The things you listed are clearly federal responsibilities, not state or local.
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Yes.

That's the point.

If we interpreted the 10th amendment strictly, then the failure on behalf of the Constitution to specify a power, like the federal regulation of air traffic control for example (because, surprise surprise, the founding fathers did not envision flight), would be left to the lower level government.

On a related note, I passed my Constitutional Law Class. With an A. At the University of Georgia School of Law.
 
Lord of Planar said:
LOL...

What craziness it is for people to think the constitution is a "permission" document for the people.

Stop for a moment and considered how insane your words are.

I will wait for your revised remarks and allow you to redeem yourself.
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He said this move was against the Constitution. Simply asking, "how it against the Constitution?"... "Where in the Constitution does it say that the Federal Government must fly the Confederate flag at federally ran cemeteries?" I've also asked you to explain how "when the Union won the civil war the 10th amendment was slashed" (a claim you have made earlier)....
 
TheDemSocialist said:
He said this move was against the Constitution. Simply asking, "how it against the Constitution?"... "Where in the Constitution does it say that the Federal Government must fly the Confederate flag at federally ran cemeteries?" I've also asked you to explain how "when the Union won the civil war the 10th amendment was slashed" (a claim you have made earlier)....
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As if you are saying it can only be flown if the constitution says so.

Don't you see the implication of your wording?
 
MrT said:
Yes.

That's the point.

If we interpreted the 10th amendment strictly, then the failure on behalf of the Constitution to specify a power, like the federal regulation of air traffic control for example (because, surprise surprise, the founding fathers did not envision flight), would be left to the lower level government.

On a related note, I passed my Constitutional Law Class. With an A. At the University of Georgia School of Law.
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Flight crosses borders, hence, the commerce clause clearly applies, as it did with ocean and river ships.
 
Lord of Planar said:
As if you are saying it can only be flown if the constitution says so.
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No.... Im asking how this is unconstitutional. How is the Federal Government not wanting to use taxpayer dollars to fly a certain flag at national cemeteries unconstitutional?

Don't you see the implication of your wording?
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Asking for a simple explanation of how the Federal Government not wanting to use taxpayer dollars to fly a certain flag at national cemeteries unconstitutional?
 
Glen Contrarian said:
That's the oldest lie about the Civil War.
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no, the oldest lie about the civil war is calling it a civil war.

a civil war involves two factions fighting over control of the government, but the South did not want control, they wanted out.
 
ARealConservative said:
no, the oldest lie about the civil war is calling it a civil war.

a civil war involves two factions fighting over control of the government, but the South did not want control, they wanted out.
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Wrong. NO state or region has a "right" to declare itself independent unless it's able to preserve its own independence by force...because it's a rare thing indeed for a nation to simply let a rebellious region to simply go its own way. The Confederacy was by definition a rebellion. A rebellion that is successful is called a "revolution" (see "American Revolution" and "October Revolution")...but if it is not successful, it was 'just' a rebellion...

...but if the rebellion's large enough, it is by definition a civil war. Check any definition you like, and you'll find the American Civil War meets the definition of a civil war. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't make it so.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Wrong. NO state or region has a "right" to declare itself independent unless it's able to preserve its own independence by force...because it's a rare thing indeed for a nation to simply let a rebellious region to simply go its own way. The Confederacy was by definition a rebellion. A rebellion that is successful is called a "revolution" (see "American Revolution" and "October Revolution")...but if it is not successful, it was 'just' a rebellion...

...but if the rebellion's large enough, it is by definition a civil war. Check any definition you like, and you'll find the American Civil War meets the definition of a civil war. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't make it so.
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only individuals have rights, so I have no idea what your point is.

The colonists would never of been able to gain independence by force without outside help, but even had we lost, we were in the right, and England was in the wrong.
 
ARealConservative said:
only individuals have rights, so I have no idea what your point is.

The colonists would never of been able to gain independence by force without outside help, but even had we lost, we were in the right, and England was in the wrong.
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In war, right or wrong often doesn't matter - successful and unsuccessful always does. The presence or absence of outside help may well make a difference in the success or lack thereof...but NOT when it comes to who's "right or wrong".

That said, the Civil War was about slavery (see my reply #31), and so they were absolutely in the wrong. The Confederates were by definition traitors to America.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
In war, right or wrong often doesn't matter - successful and unsuccessful always does. The presence or absence of outside help may well make a difference in the success or lack thereof...but NOT when it comes to who's "right or wrong".

That said, the Civil War was about slavery (see my reply #31), and so they were absolutely in the wrong. The Confederates were by definition traitors to America.
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right or wrong doesn't matter to liberals, but it matters to me.

it was wrong to kill people that wanted a divorce.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Flight crosses borders, hence, the commerce clause clearly applies, as it did with ocean and river ships.
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Thanks to a limited interpretation of the tenth amendment. If you read the 10th amendment strictly, then every. single. aspect. of the "clear" application of the commerce clause would be subject to incredible levels of scrutiny.

The only application for the 10th amendment is that it prevents the federal government from forcing the states to enact or enforce a federal program. That's enough.
 
ARealConservative said:
no, the oldest lie about the civil war is calling it a civil war.

a civil war involves two factions fighting over control of the government, but the South did not want control, they wanted out.
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It's nice how you add to the definition of a term.

Civil War | Definition of Civil War by Merriam-Webster

Simple Definition of civil war
: a war between groups of people in the same country

Full Definition of civil war
: a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country
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ARealConservative said:
we didn't go to war with any other sovereign country over slavery did we?
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Did we go to war against any sovereign nation over killing people who wanted a divorce? You're all over the place.

We went to war against a portion of the Republic that sought to rebel against us. Part of their reason for rebellion was slavery. It was never sovereign because in the end it lost. A the Confederate flag remains to this day the Loser Flag.

But individuals are free to fly it. The VA, which is government, no longer can. Though that makes sense since why would any government fly the flag of opposing factions that were defeated?
 
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