House Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

[shuamort]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Conversely if you believe they are old enough and mature enough to make such decisions about abortion then aren't they mature enough and old enough to decide to have sex with someone, even and adult? If not why not?

Sorry, I missed this post before when the pages flipped.

Your proposition is missing its inverse proposal to have it cogent. The case of incest/rape is not a position of consent.

 

[shuamort]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

It's not about sense, it's about power. That's what makes it abuse.

This doesn't even make sense.

You clearly did not read my post thoroughly. Did you catch the part where I said I am an incest survivor? What I know, I know through my own personal experience AND through counseling hundreds of victims who share similar stories and feelings...none of which would show up in ANY poll because nobody ever asks the right questions of the right people. Just for curiosity's sake, what facts am I supposedly covering up?

You're making a blanket statement for everyone who is an incest survivor. You're still doing it too. Just because I'm left-handed/white/gifted/etc does not give my position more credence when I speak on behalf of all who have one of those characteristics. It's anecdotal. As for the facts, "And a girl who gets pregnant through incest isn't going to have any more "emotional damage" through bearing the child." is unfounded. You're claiminng you know what emotional damage every incest survivor's full-term pregnancy and birth's psychological effect is going to be. It's utter hogwash.

 

[Stinger]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Fine. My father's parental rights for me were never terminated. He served 4 years in prison for gross sexual misconduct...of which I was the victim. He was responsible to pay child support even.

Having to pay child support is not proof of parental authority. So he had to approve of any medical treatment you recieved, had to sign school papers and the school had to consult with him as to your education, had the right to prevent you from moving, etc.? He had say so in your life and could veto the decissions of your mother, if you were living with her or your guardian?

Why weren't his parental rights terminated, if indeed they were not, that is the question. If he molested any child why did the court not treat him as a pedofile and prevent him from ANY contact with young children?

How long ago was this?

And I am deeply sorry you had to endure what you did and hope you no longer bear any scars from it.

 

[Stinger]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Sorry, I missed this post before when the pages flipped.

Your proposition is missing its inverse proposal to have it cogent. The case of incest/rape is not a position of consent.

The inverse is restated in the original question reposted below and was not contingent on incest/rape.

OK here it all is again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.
A child who is being sexually abused is not in a state of mind to make decisions that would be for her own good. If she could make that kind of decision, the abuse would not be continuing.


(Bold by shuamort in reply to Rev.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuamort
And you get the trophy for the most offensive thing I've read all month. Yeah, those silly 12 year olds that are raped by their fathers, they should have enough sense to try and stop it and if not, that's their fault.

And you get the trophy for the most misrepresented reply. Rev. didn't say the twelve year old should, he said if she could his point being that if she were mature enough to make a decision about abortion she would be mature enough to end the abuse if not prevent it in the first place and report any attempts. The fact that most twelve year old girls are still very immature makes them vulnerable to such abuse and incapable of making such adult decisions.

Conversely if you believe they are old enough and mature enough to make such decisions about abortion then aren't they mature enough and old enough to decide to have sex with someone, even and adult? If not why not?

 

[shuamort]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

The inverse is restated in the original question reposted below and was not contingent on incest/rape.

The contingency is its relevancy.

 

[Rev.]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Having to pay child support is not proof of parental authority. So he had to approve of any medical treatment you recieved, had to sign school papers and the school had to consult with him as to your education, had the right to prevent you from moving, etc.? He had say so in your life and could veto the decissions of your mother, if you were living with her or your guardian?

There is a difference between having the right and exercising the right. No, he never exercised his right...but he still had it. He even had visitation rights and kept in contact with my brother and sister.

Why weren't his parental rights terminated, if indeed they were not, that is the question. If he molested any child why did the court not treat him as a pedofile and prevent him from ANY contact with young children?

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. The termination of parental rights is not part and parcel of criminal cases. If a man molests someone else's kid, that doesn't mean his parental rights to his own kids should be ended (well...they should, but not everyone would agree on that). Parental rights cases are done in Family Court. With all the court appearances made through all this, a day in Family Court was not one of them.

Consider O.J. Simpson. As I recall, there was a separate on-going issue involving his parental rights. Another more local case I have been following in the paper involves a man convicted of murdering his wife. His children have gone to live with their aunt in California. NOW there are procedings involving his parental rights (well after conviction, which were BTW resulted in termination).

How long ago was this?

21 years on Father's Day (since he was arrested)

And I am deeply sorry you had to endure what you did and hope you no longer bear any scars from it.

Thanks

 

[Rev.]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

This doesn't even make sense.

ME: An incest victim isn't capable of making a decision to end the abuse...how then can she make a decision regarding her best interest in the case of a resulting pregnancy.

YOU said I said an incest victim didn't have enough sense to end abuse and somehow that got twisted to implying that I think that victims consent because they don't stop it.

I replied that sense (cognitive reasoning ability) doesn't enter into abuse. A victim can have all the knowledge in the world that something is wrong but still be unable to stop it. The thing that makes her unable to stop it is POWER. Adult/child relationships are uneven. The adult has power and the child has none. THAT is what makes it abuse.

You're making a blanket statement for everyone who is an incest survivor. You're still doing it too. Just because I'm left-handed/white/gifted/etc does not give my position more credence when I speak on behalf of all who have one of those characteristics. It's anecdotal.

Fine, it's anecdotal. It's also true. Ask any 100 sex abuse survivors and they will all tell you the same thing...hiding is the road to survival. Don't tell. THAT is what is drilled into the victims head. And the act of seeking an abortion for a pregnacy that results from incest is NOT hiding. What do you suppose happens if a girl seeks an abortion and says "My father raped me?" Health providers are MANDITORY REPORTERS! Daddy goes to jail. And who's fault is that? The GIRL'S.

As for the facts, "And a girl who gets pregnant through incest isn't going to have any more "emotional damage" through bearing the child." is unfounded. You're claiming you know what emotional damage every incest survivor's full-term pregnancy and birth's psychological effect is going to be. It's utter hogwash.

Wait a minute...you said my statement (read above) covers up the REAL facts...which are?

If you truely believe that pregnancy is the most awful thing that can happen to a victim of abuse, you have missed the boat. The damage is already done, my friend. Pregnacy becomes more of the same.

 

[shuamort]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

If you truely believe that pregnancy is the most awful thing that can happen to a victim of abuse, you have missed the boat. The damage is already done, my friend. Pregnacy becomes more of the same.

Twist and spin, spin and twist. If the debate doesn't make it for you, invent facts, stick words in other peoples mouths. Where the hell did I say or even IMPLY the above bolded statement.

 

[Rev.]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Twist and spin, spin and twist. If the debate doesn't make it for you, invent facts, stick words in other peoples mouths. Where the hell did I say or even IMPLY the above bolded statement.

Sorry. :3oops: I didn't mean you specifically, I meant you rhetorically.

 

[Stinger]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

There is a difference between having the right and exercising the right. No, he never exercised his right...but he still had it. He even had visitation rights and kept in contact with my brother and sister.

And there is quite a bit of difference betweens the parental authority and rights of a custodial parent and one who has no custody and only visitation. Even those visitation rights can be severly limited and losing custody, which is what we are really talking about here, does not necessarily restrict contact. But when it comes to making decissions about the child's life the custodial parent or guardian makes those, not a non-custodial parent.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. The termination of parental rights is not part and parcel of criminal cases. If a man molests someone else's kid, that doesn't mean his parental rights to his own kids should be ended (well...they should, but not everyone would agree on that). Parental rights cases are done in Family Court. With all the court appearances made through all this, a day in Family Court was not one of them.

Yes it has to be a court action, but one that is pretty automatic. I think we need to change it to custody and non-custody. A parent who loses custody has a right to petition to have it restated but no guaranty.

21 years on Father's Day (since he was arrested)

And laws concerning pediofiles have change quite a bit since then. And let's recall what we are discussing here, parents who rape thier children who will now be listed as Child Molesters and Sexual Criminals.

 

[Stinger]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

The contingency is its relevancy.

Conversely if you believe they are old enough and mature enough to make such decisions about abortion then aren't they mature enough and old enough to decide to have sex with someone, even and adult? If not why not?

Which is relevent, it is not rape if they consent, so if they are old enough and mature enought to make the decission about an abortion aren't they old enough and mature enough to make the decission to have sex in the first place? If not why not?

 

[shuamort]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Conversely if you believe they are old enough and mature enough to make such decisions about abortion then aren't they mature enough and old enough to decide to have sex with someone, even and adult? If not why not?

Which is relevent, it is not rape if they consent, so if they are old enough and mature enought to make the decission about an abortion aren't they old enough and mature enough to make the decission to have sex in the first place? If not why not?[/

You're trying to use two battlefields at the same time. Lemme break down your argument into the two which it actually is.

Minors having sex: It shouldn't be done, but done it is. Are minors responsible enough to make decisions to have sex and know its ramifications? To be honest, I'm not sure. I think back (way back) to high school and remember knowing a lot of girls on birth control. Now, is a girl, who understands the ramifications of having intercourse enough, being responsible because she is on the pill? Is that girl more or less responsible that a girl who is having intercourse without the pill?

Minors having abortions:So we have a girl that has had sex with or without protection and has gotten pregnant. (Let's throw out the "rape" thing here because it can lead us down tangential roads, agreed?) Now, just looking at this girl's life (ignoring the fetus/baby at this point) is her life better off having or not having a baby? Is her life better off having or not having an abortion? Should she understand the responsibility of her actions of having sex at such a young age? Which teaches responsibility more, an abortion or forcing her to carry the child?

Which leads us to the final question:
Is every girl the same or are they all different?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I don't see how an abortion would teach responsiblility. I see it as escaping it.

 

[Stinger]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

You're trying to use two battlefields at the same time. Lemme break down your argument into the two which it actually is.

Just congurent flanks of the same battlefield <G>

Minors having sex: It shouldn't be done, but done it is. Are minors responsible enough to make decisions to have sex and know its ramifications? To be honest, I'm not sure.

Which then begs the question how can you know she is responsible and mature enought to make decessions to have an abortion?

I think back (way back) to high school and remember knowing a lot of girls on birth control.

And I would bet every one of them with parental permission unless a doctor illegally perscribed them.

Now, is a girl, who understands the ramifications of having intercourse enough, being responsible because she is on the pill? Is that girl more or less responsible that a girl who is having intercourse without the pill?

Well?

Minors having abortions:So we have a girl that has had sex with or without protection and has gotten pregnant. (Let's throw out the "rape" thing here because it can lead us down tangential roads, agreed?) Now, just looking at this girl's life (ignoring the fetus/baby at this point) is her life better off having or not having a baby?

Depends doesn't it. The question is is she old enough to make that decission and should the parents of that child have no input, and you can't ignore the life that is at stake, is it better off with or without the abortion?

Is her life better off having or not having an abortion?

You're repeating yourselve without offering an answer to the questions posed.

Should she understand the responsibility of her actions of having sex at such a young age? Which teaches responsibility more, an abortion or forcing her to carry the child?

Of putting the child up for adoption.

Which leads us to the final question:
Is every girl the same or are they all different?

I'm still waiting for an answer to the first.

 

[shuamort]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Which then begs the question how can you know she is responsible and mature enought to make decessions to have an abortion?

I don't know. Never said I did.

And I would bet every one of them with parental permission unless a doctor illegally perscribed them.

Never asked. Never was in a position where I'd have to know either. :mrgreen:

Depends doesn't it. The question is is she old enough to make that decission and should the parents of that child have no input, and you can't ignore the life that is at stake, is it better off with or without the abortion?

If you're against abortion, fine. Just say that. Having a village give an up or down vote on everything is ridiculous on matters that relate to one own's body. YMMV.

You're repeating yourselve without offering an answer to the questions posed.

And you're ignoring all the questions. Are you Rosenkrantz or Guildenstern?

Of putting the child up for adoption.

Exactly! Choices! Look at that!

I'm still waiting for an answer to the first.

Oh, quid pro quo? Nah. You first.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

This is not an issue about only one's own body. This involves the life of a potenial human being that since Roe v. Wade has been overlooked.

And the choice of pregnancy comes before conception. Safe sex anyone? Be responsible, don't undo your mistake by killing a child. This is not your choice. You have the choice to take precautions. Excercise those choices.

You are either with child or without. The idea of undoing "with child" is simply killing the child. You should not have the "choice" to do that.

 

[Stinger]

Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Which then begs the question how can you know she is responsible and mature enought to make decessions to have an abortion?

you>> I don't know. Never said I did.

So without that knowledge do you support laws against partental notification and support allowing minor children to get an abortion without the knowledge or permission of the parents?

you>> If you're against abortion, fine. Just say that.

The subject of the debate is whether minor children should be allowed to make the decission to get an abortion without the involvement of thier parents.

If you're for that then just say that.