• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

House Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

jfrancis

New member
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
According to FoxNews.com, on Wednesday, April 27, the House passed a bill that would make it illegal to dodge parental-consent laws by taking minors across state lines for abortions. Due to the public support for parent's involvement in the decisions of their pregnant daughter's, the bill would impose fines, jail time or both on adults and doctors involved in most cases where minors were taken out of state to get abortions done. Some democrats believed that this bill would simply allow parents to be informed that their child was indeed having the operation. If approved by the President, this would be the fifth attempt in trying to reduce the number of abortions.

When dealing with abortions, we need to look at several different scenarios. First if the girl was rapped, and became pregnant, we should allow that girl to have an abortion. But, if this is a minor that was just sexually active, and became pregnant and was not ready to have that child, then she should talk to her parents, the baby's father, and the baby father's parents, and together they should agree on a final decision on the life of that child. Minors should not be able to make such a major decision like this all by themselves. They should consult someone, but more importantly they should be able to consult their parents first, before going to anyone else.
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

jfrancis said:
According to FoxNews.com, on Wednesday, April 27, the House passed a bill that would make it illegal to dodge parental-consent laws by taking minors across state lines for abortions.
:wcm to Debate Politics!

This was the third time since 1998 the House has approved the measure, sponsored by Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a Florida Republican. The Senate has never taken it up and no vote has been set. FYI - More than 30 states have parental notification or consent laws.
jfrancis said:
Due to the public support for parent's involvement in the decisions of their pregnant daughter's, the bill would impose fines, jail time or both on adults and doctors involved in most cases where minors were taken out of state to get abortions done.
Bold statement, please PROVE that public support? You're inferrng that a majority of Americans agree with that statement, and I would like to know your source, please?
jfrancis said:
When dealing with abortions, we need to look at several different scenarios. First if the girl was rapped, and became pregnant, we should allow that girl to have an abortion.
That's not what anti-choice people believe, they want all abortions to be stopped, even if raped.
jfrancis said:
But, if this is a minor that was just sexually active, and became pregnant and was not ready to have that child, then she should talk to her parents, the baby's father, and the baby father's parents, and together they should agree on a final decision on the life of that child. Minors should not be able to make such a major decision like this all by themselves. They should consult someone, but more importantly they should be able to consult their parents first, before going to anyone else.
You really think that the parents of the father should have any choice in this? You really think that the father should have any choice? That would be an outrageous violation of the woman's civil rights, and is completely unconstitutional. This law was created to supposedly prevent the father from forcing the woman to have an abortion, not to allow him to stop her. What you wrote is the exact opposite of what the bill's author intends.
 

ShamMol

Only Way Round is Through
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 24, 2005
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
10
Location
Pasadena, California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

26 X World Champs said:
This was the third time since 1998 the House has approved the measure, sponsored by Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a Florida Republican. The Senate has never taken it up and no vote has been set. FYI - More than 30 states have parental notification or consent laws.
With the extreme majority they have now, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Senate take it up this time. If they do, I think that they might have a harder time passing it than the house because Democrats would definetely fillibuster it if it looked like it was going to pass.
That's not what anti-choice people believe, they want all abortions to be stopped, even if raped.
That isn't necessarily true. Most I think believe that when rape and/or incest is involved then it should be allowable, but some don't.
You really think that the parents of the father should have any choice in this? You really think that the father should have any choice? That would be an outrageous violation of the woman's civil rights, and is completely unconstitutional. This law was created to supposedly prevent the father from forcing the woman to have an abortion, not to allow him to stop her. What you wrote is the exact opposite of what the bill's author intends.
Completely correct. It is unconstitutional because if those people have that much power over the girl (being the father, father's family) then that goes against her privacy wishes which were defined in Roe. However, requiring the parents of the girl to sign might not be considered unconstitutional per se, it just depends on how they set up the bill.
 

Rev.

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
530
Reaction score
55
Location
New England
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

26 X World Champs said:
You really think that the parents of the father should have any choice in this? You really think that the father should have any choice? That would be an outrageous violation of the woman's civil rights, and is completely unconstitutional. This law was created to supposedly prevent the father from forcing the woman to have an abortion, not to allow him to stop her. What you wrote is the exact opposite of what the bill's author intends.
The father should absolutely have a choice! He contributed half of the biological material to make that baby, he should get some say as to what happens to it.

The whole "it's a woman's civil right to decide what happens to her own body" arguement is pure poppycock. The female babies that are being aborted are having their "civil rights" violated all the time. They get no say about what happens to their body.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
64
Reaction score
0
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Kids need parental consent to go on a school field trip. Remember... those "permission slips?"

Why the heck should they not obtain parental consent before undergoing an important medical procedure, especially one that could produce life-altering emotional consequences?

They're MINORS! And the whole point of minority (in the sense of age) is that they are not ready to take possession of the full rights of adult citizens.

This issue should be a no-brainer, were it not for fanatics on both sides of the aisle.
 
Last edited:

Schweddy

Benevolent Dictator
Administrator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
11,903
Reaction score
6,023
Location
Plano, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Rev. said:
The father should absolutely have a choice! He contributed half of the biological material to make that baby, he should get some say as to what happens to it.

The whole "it's a woman's civil right to decide what happens to her own body" arguement is pure poppycock. The female babies that are being aborted are having their "civil rights" violated all the time. They get no say about what happens to their body.
I agree - it is hard to find any flaw in your arguement.

Excellent post.
 

Stinger

DP Veteran
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
15,097
Reaction score
537
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

That's not what anti-choice people believe, they want all abortions to be stopped, even if raped.
That's not true, the vast majority of the anti-abortion side accept as a compromise the life of the mother and rape and incest. There is the arguement to be made that killing the child that may result from a rape does not solve the moral delima nor does it make the rape go away, many women who have been advised get an abortion in such cases later say they wish they hadn't and that it made the emotional crisis worse in the long run. The fact is abortion is not necesarry with the discovery that a large does of birth control medication immediately afterwards makes the uterus nonreceptive anyway and pregency does not occour. So if a woman who has been raped seeks medical care immediately the whole issue can be prevented.
 

Stinger

DP Veteran
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
15,097
Reaction score
537
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

You really think that the father should have any choice?
Then should he be allowed to opt out of responsiblity for the child if he chooses not to be a parent?
That would be an outrageous violation of the woman's civil rights, and is completely unconstitutional.
Then would it be just as unconstitutional to require the sperm donor to be a father?
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

In the case of incest:

This is the lesson of Spring Adams, an Idaho teenager who was shot to death by her father after he learned she was planning to terminate a pregnancy caused by his acts of incest. It is clear that when a young woman believes that she cannot involve her parents in her decision to terminate a pregnancy, the law cannot mandate healthy, open family communication.
 

Schweddy

Benevolent Dictator
Administrator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
11,903
Reaction score
6,023
Location
Plano, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Stinger said:
Then should he be allowed to opt out of responsiblity for the child if he chooses not to be a parent?
Yes - here is a thread I started on the subject: http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=683

Of course it's not popular, but the man should have just as much say as the woman.
 

Schweddy

Benevolent Dictator
Administrator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
11,903
Reaction score
6,023
Location
Plano, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

shuamort said:
In the case of incest:
This is the lesson of Spring Adams, an Idaho teenager who was shot to death by her father after he learned she was planning to terminate a pregnancy caused by his acts of incest. It is clear that when a young woman believes that she cannot involve her parents in her decision to terminate a pregnancy, the law cannot mandate healthy, open family communication
I disagree - she should have went to the police after being raped by the father.
There was nothing healthy with the "communication" within this family.
 

Mixed View

Active member
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
343
Reaction score
1
Location
MO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

I can't seem to find anything wrong with this bill.
 

Mixed View

Active member
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
343
Reaction score
1
Location
MO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

26 X World Champs said:
:You really think that the parents of the father should have any choice in this? You really think that the father should have any choice? That would be an outrageous violation of the woman's civil rights, and is completely unconstitutional. This law was created to supposedly prevent the father from forcing the woman to have an abortion, not to allow him to stop her. What you wrote is the exact opposite of what the bill's author intends.
Won't the parents of the father be just as pushy and forcing as the girl's own parents. Maybe she does want an abortion, but the parents don't. What if the father's parents did want an abortion and the girl didn't want to have one? There will be a conflict, but the conflict will help determine a good choice.

I don't see the chioce though. She had the choice to have a sexual life and to have sex with that boy. Why should any of them have the choice to decide if the feotus/child lives or dies.
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

vauge said:
I disagree - she should have went to the police after being raped by the father.
There was nothing healthy with the "communication" within this family.
Quite true, but, hypothetically speaking, let's say that her mother was gone. The girl wanted an abortion and since the father is in jail from incest/rape, who should be responsible for the choice? Should it still be the father's decision here?


[moderator note]
I changed the title of the thread from "Hose passes..." to "House passes..."
[/moderator note]
 

Stinger

DP Veteran
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
15,097
Reaction score
537
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

shuamort said:
Quite true, but, hypothetically speaking, let's say that her mother was gone. The girl wanted an abortion and since the father is in jail from incest/rape, who should be responsible for the choice?

The same people who would be responsible for all parental decissions involving her life until she reaches the age of majority. You don't think people in prision for felonies retain their parental rights for children they cannot rear do you?

Should it still be the father's decision here?
Of course not. Especially since he committed a crime against her. That's a no brainer what is your point in asking such an obvious question?
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Stinger said:
The same people who would be responsible for all parental decissions involving her life until she reaches the age of majority. You don't think people in prision for felonies retain their parental rights for children they cannot rear do you?
Yes, I do. In fact, that's what happens. They do retain parental rights unless the prisoner wishes to terminate them or the court deems it necessary.


Stinger said:
Of course not. Especially since he committed a crime against her. That's a no brainer what is your point in asking such an obvious question?
I might not think so and apparently you don't either. Other people may have different views.
 

Rev.

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
530
Reaction score
55
Location
New England
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

shuamort said:
Quite true, but, hypothetically speaking, let's say that her mother was gone. The girl wanted an abortion and since the father is in jail from incest/rape, who should be responsible for the choice? Should it still be the father's decision here?
For me, incest was not hypothetical. Nor was a pregnancy scare as a result of it.

And talking about allowing abortion in the case of incest is a real as fairy dust. It fails to address the REAL issue and is similar to offering antibiotic ointment to treat the hangnail of a multiple-trauma car crash victim.

First, the fact of real genuine incest is incredibly rare. While 1/4 of all women are sexually abused before their 18th birthday, the number of those instances that include father/daughter incest is a percentage of somewhere in the single digits (3% is the number that comes to mind from a college text I read LONG ago)

A child who is being sexually abused is not in a state of mind to make decisions that would be for her own good. If she could make that kind of decision, the abuse would not be continuing. The victim is taught to hide what is going on AT ALL COSTS. The result of that is NOT a girl who would seek an abortion in order to continue to hide the sexual abuse taking place (unless her abuser is savy about her cycles and keeps count, in which case he may take her to a clinic where an abortion would be performed FOR SOME OTHER REASON). The real result of that emotional tyrany is a girl who HIDES her pregnancy until it is too late as she has been taught to HIDE all the other awful stuff going on in her life.

Abortion "in the case of incest" in actuality enables abusers to continue abuse. It disposes of the evidence. And a girl who gets pregnant through incest isn't going to have any more "emotional damage" through bearing the child. You can't damage devestation.
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Rev. said:
For me, incest was not hypothetical. Nor was a pregnancy scare as a result of it.

And talking about allowing abortion in the case of incest is a real as fairy dust. It fails to address the REAL issue and is similar to offering antibiotic ointment to treat the hangnail of a multiple-trauma car crash victim.

First, the fact of real genuine incest is incredibly rare. While 1/4 of all women are sexually abused before their 18th birthday, the number of those instances that include father/daughter incest is a percentage of somewhere in the single digits (3% is the number that comes to mind from a college text I read LONG ago)
Rare or not, it still happens. Failure to make exceptions to the rules that some want to enforce are even more needed and need not punch holes in your argument as you're contending.
Rev. said:
A child who is being sexually abused is not in a state of mind to make decisions that would be for her own good. If she could make that kind of decision, the abuse would not be continuing.
And you get the trophy for the most offensive thing I've read all month. Yeah, those silly 12 year olds that are raped by their fathers, they should have enough sense to try and stop it and if not, that's their fault.

Rev. said:
Abortion "in the case of incest" in actuality enables abusers to continue abuse. It disposes of the evidence. And a girl who gets pregnant through incest isn't going to have any more "emotional damage" through bearing the child. You can't damage devestation.
Wow, you're able to know the psychological make-up of every incest survivor. How warm is that blanket you're covering up the facts with?
 

Stinger

DP Veteran
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
15,097
Reaction score
537
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

shuamort said:
Yes, I do. In fact, that's what happens. They do retain parental rights unless the prisoner wishes to terminate them or the court deems it necessary.
No I believe the children are put into guardianship or foster home if no such guardian can be found and they would make such parental decissions.


me>> Of course not. Especially since he committed a crime against her. That's a no brainer what is your point in asking such an obvious question?
I might not think so and apparently you don't either. Other people may have different views.
Who?
 

Stinger

DP Veteran
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
15,097
Reaction score
537
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.
A child who is being sexually abused is not in a state of mind to make decisions that would be for her own good. If she could make that kind of decision, the abuse would not be continuing.


(Bold by shuamort in reply to Rev.)

shuamort said:
And you get the trophy for the most offensive thing I've read all month. Yeah, those silly 12 year olds that are raped by their fathers, they should have enough sense to try and stop it and if not, that's their fault.
And you get the trophy for the most misrepresented reply. Rev. didn't say the twelve year old should, he said if she could his point being that if she were mature enough to make a decision about abortion she would be mature enough to end the abuse if not prevent it in the first place and report any attempts. The fact that most twelve year old girls are still very immature makes them vulnerable to such abuse and incapable of making such adult decisions.

Conversely if you believe they are old enough and mature enough to make such decisions about abortion then aren't they mature enough and old enough to decide to have sex with someone, even and adult? If not why not?
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Stinger said:
No I believe the children are put into guardianship or foster home if no such guardian can be found and they would make such parental decissions.
Here's a case in Michigan that would reject that claim:

ADOPTING - TERMINATION OF RIGHTS - INCARCERATED NATURAL PARENT

In the Matter of Gabriel Allen Caldwell, Minor, Mich App (1997), #197219, 8/8/97

On May 3, 1990, a child was born to petitioner, Kaetlyn E. Russell, and respondent, who were married at the time. The parents were divorced in 1994 while the father (respondent) was in prison. During respondent's imprisonment, his ex-wife became remarried to petitioner, who sought to legally adopt the child. Throughout the case, respondent remained incarcerated, failed to pay child support, and had little or no contact with his child. As part of the step-parent adoption proceeding, the probate court terminated respondent's parental rights pursuant to MCL 710.51(6); MSA 27.3178 (555.51)(6) which provides:

If the parents of a child are divorced ... and if the parent having legal custody of the child subsequently marries and that parent's spouse petitions to adopt the child, the court upon notice and hearing may issue an order terminating the rights of the other parent if both of the following occurs:

(A) The other parent, having the ability to support, or assist in supporting the child, has failed or neglected to provide regular and substantial support for the child or if a support order has been entered, has failed to substantially comply with the order, for a period of 2 years or more before the filing of the petition.

(B) The other parent, having the ability to visit, contact, or communicate with the child, has regularly and substantially failed or neglected to do so for a period of 2 years or more before the filing of the petition.

Respondent appealed his termination of parental rights.

The Court of Appeals reversed the decision of the trial court. The court stated that it was required by Administrative Order 1996-4 to follow the case of In re Halbert, 217 Mich App 607 (1996). They interpreted the Halbert case to hold that an incarcerated parent's rights cannot be terminated under MCL 710.51(6); MSA 27.3178(555.51)(6) of the adoption code because the Legislature did not intend to apply this provision against an incarcerated parent who lacks the ability to support or visit the child. Thus, respondent's parental rights could not be terminated. They continued, however, to make it clear that they disagreed with the Halbert holding and provided arguments as to why it should have been decided otherwise.

The case continues a line of cases started by Halbert and creates a bright line rule which protects incarcerated parents from having their rights terminated under MCL 710.51(6); MSA 27.3178(555.51)(6) of the adoption code. That the Legislature really intended to protect such parents at the expense of their children is highly questionable in my opinion. Hopefully, the Michigan Supreme Court or the Legislature will take action to correct the situation in which these cases have placed Michigan's children.
 

Stinger

DP Veteran
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
15,097
Reaction score
537
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

shuamort said:
Here's a case in Michigan that would reject that claim:

ADOPTING - TERMINATION OF RIGHTS - INCARCERATED NATURAL PARENT

In the Matter of Gabriel Allen Caldwell, Minor, Mich App (1997), #197219, 8/8/97
First problem with your site is that there is another parent who has custody and would make the decissions. No where does it say the person incarerated would retain custody or rights to make parental decissions. This is a very limited case having to do with adoption.

Second

They continued, however, to make it clear that they disagreed with the Halbert holding and provided arguments as to why it should have been decided otherwise.
Even the court said this particular law needs to be rewritten and may very well have been since the ruling in 1997.

Third in this case the person is not being incarcerated for raping the child. If you can find a case where a parent raped a child and maintained their parental authority over that child I'd like to see it. That is the scenario that has been presented.
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Stinger said:
That is the scenario that has been presented.
I thought that the question was whether or not people who were incarcerated on a felony lost their parental rights or not.


As for the case of what would happen if a single father raped and impregnated his underage daughter and she got pregnant and he was put into jail.... well, I can only do so much law research without a Lexis Nexus account and I kinda get the feeling that that would be a bit of an anomaly. And even if it weren't, who knows if the information would be sealed from the public because of its involvement with a minor.

Of course, if you want to further your claim that a single parent would lose parental consent due to an incarceration, you're more than welcome to prove your claim.
 

Rev.

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
530
Reaction score
55
Location
New England
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

Stinger said:
Third in this case the person is not being incarcerated for raping the child. If you can find a case where a parent raped a child and maintained their parental authority over that child I'd like to see it. That is the scenario that has been presented.
Fine. My father's parental rights for me were never terminated. He served 4 years in prison for gross sexual misconduct...of which I was the victim. He was responsible to pay child support even.
 

Rev.

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
530
Reaction score
55
Location
New England
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
Re: Hose Passes Parental-Consent Abortion Bill

shuamort said:
Rev. said:
A child who is being sexually abused is not in a state of mind to make decisions that would be for her own good. If she could make that kind of decision, the abuse would not be continuing.
And you get the trophy for the most offensive thing I've read all month. Yeah, those silly 12 year olds that are raped by their fathers, they should have enough sense to try and stop it and if not, that's their fault.
It's not about sense, it's about power. That's what makes it abuse.


Wow, you're able to know the psychological make-up of every incest survivor. How warm is that blanket you're covering up the facts with?
You clearly did not read my post thoroughly. Did you catch the part where I said I am an incest survivor? What I know, I know through my own personal experience AND through counseling hundreds of victims who share similar stories and feelings...none of which would show up in ANY poll because nobody ever asks the right questions of the right people. Just for curiosity's sake, what facts am I supposedly covering up?
 
Top Bottom