House COVID relief package supercharges ACA premium support

[jpn]

My point is wealth and prosperity come from capitalism, not socialism.[

And my point is that a healthy, wealthy society comes from the proper mix of a free market and essential governmental interventions.

Correct, but healthcare isn't one of them. What is it specifically about the market for healthcare that you believe "doesn't work".

The fact that minimizing one's "costs" doesn't bode well for patients needing care.
But please. Show me where I'm wrong. Show me an example of where a largely unregulated free market somehow supplies a society with access to health care where required. I don't know of a single example. The closest one we have is the US, where we pay half again as much (and sometimes twice as much) as other nations while getting middling results and leaving tens of millions of our citizens without access.

The high prices are a feature of government intervention, not a bug.

Huh. Then why are the other systems in the developed world less expensive than our own?

 

[jpn]

It’s the $1400 that people care about. Screw everything else.

And the child care.
And the unemployment compensation.
And the vaccine distribution.
And a few other things.
Add the $1,400 to that and you've got yourself a winner. Good for our health, good for our economy, good for our citizens.
No wonder it's so popular.

 

[VySky]

And the child care.
And the unemployment compensation.
And the vaccine distribution.
And a few other things.
Add the $1,400 to that and you've got yourself a winner. Good for our health, good for our economy, good for our citizens.
No wonder it's so popular.

I don’t like it one bit.

 

[jpn]

Yes, we all remember rightwingers predicting the ACA would wreck health care a decade ago. We're owed some mea culpas.

• Since Obamacare Became Law, 20 Million More Americans Have Gained Health Insurance
• Name the much-criticized federal program that has saved the U.S. $2.3 trillion. Hint: it starts with Affordable
• Medicare’s cost surprise: It’s going down
• Health Spending Growth Slowing, More on Pace with Economic Growth
• Employers’ Health Care Cost Growth Has Plateaued
• Medicare ACO Results for 2018: More Downside Risk Adoption, More Savings, and All ACO Types Now Averaging Savings
• How the Affordable Care Act Drove Down Personal Bankruptcy: Expanded health insurance helped cut the number of filings by half
• Obamacare, in Its First Big Test as Safety Net, Is Holding Up So Far
• The Affordable Care Act Reduced Income Inequality In The US
• Baby Survival Rates Improved in States With Affordable Care Act, Data Show
• Out-of-hospital cardiac arrests fell under the Affordable Care Act
• Medical care, health have improved for low-income adults under ACA
• ACA linked to reduced racial disparities, earlier diagnosis and treatment in cancer care
• Affordable Care Act Increased Rate of Early Cancer Diagnoses
• Uninsured cancer patients saw increased coverage for care following Medicaid expansion
• ACA credited with earlier diagnosis of gynecologic cancers in young women
• Fewer Patients Have Been Dying From Hospital Errors Since Obamacare Started

All this despite every possible attempt by the GOP to sabotage the ACA because they don't like seeing the federal government succeeding where the free market fails:

Sabotage Watch: Tracking Efforts to Undermine the ACA | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (cbpp.org)
Six ways Trump has sabotaged the Affordable Care Act
Trump Takes a Final Shot at Obamacare Exchanges
An Inside Look At How Trump Scrubbed Obamacare From HHS Websites

 

[aociswundumho]

And my point is that a healthy, wealthy society comes from the proper mix of a free market and essential governmental interventions.

Making decisions by politics is not "essential". What parts of your life would you prefer to made by politic? Be specific, please.

The fact that minimizing one's "costs" doesn't bode well for patients needing care.

Sure it does, because it makes healthcare cheaper. Food is more important than healthcare, do you believe making food cheaper doesn't bode well for hungry people?

But please. Show me where I'm wrong. Show me an example of where a largely unregulated free market somehow supplies a society with access to health care where required. I don't know of a single example. The closest one we have is the US, where we pay half again as much (and sometimes twice as much) as other nations while getting middling results and leaving tens of millions of our citizens without access.

The US is not even close to "a largely unregulated free market". Every single aspect of healthcare in the US is highly regulated, starting with the ambulance that brings you to the hospital. In the US, hospitals are so highly regulated that many of them don't even give out prices.

Huh. Then why are the other systems in the developed world less expensive than our own?

Do you mean less expensive, or are you asking why they spend less? Those are two different questions.

 

[Neomalthusian]

The US is not even close to "a largely unregulated free market".

Nor would it make sense that we should aspire to be.

 

[aociswundumho]

Nor would it make sense that we should aspire to be.

No, it would make tremendous sense, as the price for healthcare in the US would drop through the floor.

Ironically enough, the low prices would allow your commie system to actually work, in the same way food stamps work for food.

 

[Neomalthusian]

No, it would make tremendous sense, as the price for healthcare in the US would drop through the floor.

Via deprivation and amenable mortality? Yeah I guess that mechanism would technically work, but in a way most of our country and the rest of the world would view as a humanitarian catastrophe. The poor and the not-rich old would be left to die of treatable and curable conditions.

I bet you couldn’t even get a quarter of ultra-conservative-only Medicare-age people to support repealing Medicare.

A nation will never agree to use deprivation to control costs.

 

[aociswundumho]

Via deprivation and amenable mortality?

No, via competition and the profit motive.

Yeah I guess that mechanism would technically work, but in a way most of our country and the rest of the world would view as a humanitarian catastrophe. The poor and the not-rich old would be left to die of treatable and curable conditions.

Food is more important than healthcare. 100 years ago communists like yourself argued that without state control over the food supply, only the rich will eat.

I bet you couldn’t even get a quarter of ultra-conservative-only Medicare-age people to support repealing Medicare.

Agreed, probably much, much less than a quarter.

 

[Neomalthusian]

No, via competition and the profit motive.

Many high cost goods and services cannot and do not drop what whatever people’s means are. Lots of people just go without. There aren’t any examples of this theory being implemented and working well for a nation, because no one finds deprivation conscionable.

Food is more important than healthcare. 100 years ago communists like yourself argued that without state control over the food supply, only the rich will eat.

Determining that some goods and services are best provided publicly doesn’t make a person a communist. This determination is based on the fact that there aren’t many or almost any examples anywhere of success having those particular goods and services provided by competing sellers.

The economics of food production aren’t comparable to the provision of health care.

 

[aociswundumho]

Many high cost goods and services cannot and do not drop what whatever people’s means are. Lots of people just go without.

Sure, but if healthcare is dirt cheap then you can easily set up a means-tested voucher system to provide the poor with medical services, and everyone's happy.

There aren’t any examples of this theory being implemented and working well for a nation, because no one finds deprivation conscionable.

True, but just because something hasn't existed doesn't necessarily mean it can't exist.

Determining that some goods and services are best provided publicly doesn’t make a person a communist.

Yes, but you did make the same argument commies used to make about food production.

This determination is based on the fact that there aren’t many or almost any examples anywhere of success having those particular goods and services provided by competing sellers.

There are examples of healthcare working like a free market, with buyers shopping for healthcare based on price and quality, and sellers counting on their low prices and reputation to attract them.

The economics of food production aren’t comparable to the provision of health care.

That's correct, food is much, much easier to produce and government can't even do that. Every famine during the 20th century was caused full or in large part by state ownership/control of the means of producing food.

 

[jaeger19]

Trash the whole thing and replace it with Single-Payer.

Careful what you wish for.

 

[Neomalthusian]

Sure, but if healthcare is dirt cheap then you can easily set up a means-tested voucher system to provide the poor with medical services, and everyone's happy.

There's really no way to make healthcare "dirt cheap" without obliterating access and/or quality.

Yes, but you did make the same argument commies used to make about food production.

The entire advanced world, including conservative millionaires on Medicare, think a little bit like commies when it comes to health care.

There are examples of healthcare working like a free market, with buyers shopping for healthcare based on price and quality, and sellers counting on their low prices and reputation to attract them.

Not many. A lot of health care is provided in situations where shopping around for the best price/quality combo is not feasible.

 

[aociswundumho]

There's really no way to make healthcare "dirt cheap" without obliterating access and/or quality.

Access goes up when prices go down. For example, as phones get cheaper, more and more poor people have access to them. Capitalism has made food cheap, and access has gone up to the point where obesity is a major health issue.

Low healthcare prices means cheap health insurance policies.

The entire advanced world, including conservative millionaires on Medicare, think a little bit like commies when it comes to health care.

True, but in the entire "advanced" world, growing a bunch of marijuana plants is a crime that merits a stiff prison sentence.

In all of the "advanced" world, only a small percentage are atheists.

Just because most people are doing something, doesn't mean it's the correct thing to do.

Not many. A lot of health care is provided in situations where shopping around for the best price/quality combo is not feasible.

Only in some emergency situations. For the overwhelming majority of medical procedures, there is plenty of time to shop around.

Even when people are bleeding and in pain, they shop for a ride to the hospital. People take Uber instead of being ass-raped by the local ambulance monopoly.

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[Neomalthusian]

Access goes up when prices go down. For example, as phones get cheaper, more and more poor people have access to them.

But until that happens, people who can't afford phones go without phones. As a society virtually no one is going to tolerate anyone going without whatever they need medically. This is what makes health care a de facto public good.

Capitalism has made food cheap

Massive ongoing federal subsidies have also made food cheap.

Low healthcare prices means cheap health insurance policies.

The low healthcare prices can't be achieved by free market basics. No one will ethically tolerate what that would require.

Only in some emergency situations. For the overwhelming majority of medical procedures, there is plenty of time to shop around.

Even when people are bleeding and in pain, they shop for a ride to the hospital. People take Uber instead of being ass-raped by the local ambulance monopoly.

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Government is necessary to regulate monopoly power and inefficient profit being derived from the provision of public goods. Monopoly power which could well exist in a free market. This isn't a commie principle.

 

[aociswundumho]

But until that happens, people who can't afford phones go without phones. As a society virtually no one is going to tolerate anyone going without whatever they need medically. This is what makes health care a de facto public good.

1. Every society tolerates rationing healthcare - there is no other option.

2. Healthcare is a private good. It is not a public good, nor is it a de facto public good. It has none of the characteristics of a public good.

The low healthcare prices can't be achieved by free market basics. No one will ethically tolerate what that would require.

Why is competition in the healthcare market unethical?

Government is necessary to regulate monopoly power and inefficient profit being derived from the provision of public goods. Monopoly power which could well exist in a free market. This isn't a commie principle.

You've got it exactly backwards. Government is a huge creator and enforcer of monopolies.

Utility monopolies.

Broadband monopolies.

Even ambulance monopolies.

And many, many, many more. In fact the rotten government has given itself a monopoly on the use of force.

Do I have to explain why monopolies are bad? Because I have a feeling you are going to defend them.

 

[Neomalthusian]

1. Every society tolerates rationing healthcare - there is no other option.

No one tolerates deprivation of needed care.

2. Healthcare is a private good. It is not a public good, nor is it a de facto public good. It has none of the characteristics of a public good.

Yes it does.

Why is competition in the healthcare market unethical?

Deprivation to control costs is unethical, at least according to an overwhelming majority.

You've got it exactly backwards. Government is a huge creator and enforcer of monopolies.

Utility monopolies.

Broadband monopolies.

Even ambulance monopolies.

Government’s involvement in these instances is necessary to regulate monopoly power and restrict gouging-based profit. Utilities aren’t thousands of dollars a month.

Do I have to explain why monopolies are bad?

No. Do I have to explain why there can’t be 5 electric companies all competing for the same electric customers?

 

[Greenbeard]

There's really no way to make healthcare "dirt cheap" without obliterating access and/or quality.

This dude thinks the “real market price” of a nursing staff is ~$1,600 per year because you can find places in India where nurses will work for that. Similarly, a cardiac surgeon making in the $40Ks seems realistic to him for the same reason. His sense of the realism of “dirt cheap” health care in the United States is, shall we say, distorted.