• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

House Bill Defunds Health Care

the last government shutdown?
Nothing changed except the the fact that the Republicans won and we got a cut in the rate of growth of government, this time the stakes are so much higher and it is a foregone conclusion that we will fail to defund Osamacare so it is all pointlessness in the extreme
 
Nothing changed except the the fact that the Republicans won and we got a cut in the rate of growth of government, this time the stakes are so much higher and it is a foregone conclusion that we will fail to defund Osamacare so it is all pointlessness in the extreme
You gotta try to stay positive here. There's more going on than the infinitesimally small amount we see through the multi-colored filters we're allowed. We believe in the average American. The average American hasn't changed; you just rarely hear from them. But the average American isn't dumb either. They see what's going one. They may not be uber sophisticated, hyper intellectuals with scads of worthless graduate degrees. They're out there busting their butts making a living for themselves and their families, trying to better their lives and create futures for their children.

Here's something to encourage you, remembering.... it's all about who you talk to.... and why: :thumbs:

Obama Voters.jpg
 
Nothing changed except the the fact that the Republicans won and we got a cut in the rate of growth of government, this time the stakes are so much higher and it is a foregone conclusion that we will fail to defund Osamacare so it is all pointlessness in the extreme

Hmmmm the biggest grower of government the last 30 years has been Republicans??? You have me so confused
 
so confused
no need for confusion, when in doubt

2zokdu9.jpg
 
So what's going on here? Another defeat Obamacare vote? And will this shut down the government like in the 90's? If so, will it come back to bite the Republicans in the a**?

It's similar to a defeat Obamacare vote, but differently as they're attaching it to something that is actual leverage now.

The Government isn't funded after October 1st at this moment. The Republicans are suggesting passing a bill in the House which would fund the government, except for Obamacare, through December. (This short term funding is called a "Continuing Resolution" and has historically been used often to give additional time to get an actual Fiscal year "budget" passed for the whole year).

So basically putting an option before the Senate...take a bill that keeps the government running, but defunds Obamacare or shut the government down entirely.

Whether it would bite the Republicans in the ass or not is hard to say as it'll rely completley on how each side spins their argument after the fact (were it to happen).

Republicans would suggest that they took initiative to pass a bill that would fund the government, and were seeking to stop a highly unpopular law.

Democrats would suggest the Republicans held the government hostage to kill Obamacare, and that their attempts to keep the Government open wasn't in good faith.

People on either side will think their sides view is generally correct and the other sides view is full of crap. People in the middle will likely be swayed by who puts forth their argument better.

Why the urgency to defeat this "train wreck"? If that's what this is, why not let it fail and bring down its Democratic authors?

Because, historically, once you actually have people participating in a social welfare program it is ridiculously difficult to take it away. Despite ACA passing a while back, it's not really been implimented in such a way that people are largely and widely being covered under it's provisions. That starts on October 1st currently. So that's kind of the "deadline" to be able to reasonably stop it prior to the point where it becomes an actual social welfare program that you'd then be "taking away" from people.

Republicans have shown they can play politics with the welfare of the American people by threatening the full faith and credit of the country, so why not let the law destroy itself, then sweep in and take the credit for predicting it?

Aaaaaaaand to my earlier point. Thanks for highlighting how liberals will try to paint it, and stating your view and opinion of it as if it's fact. It's amazing how that just flows off partisans tongues when speaking of things.

My question is, do Republicans fear that ACA will not be the disaster they predict, or even worse, a success, and are trying to sabotage it before they look bad for opposing it? Or is this just a stunt to appease their radical right wing? "Obamacare delenda est"?

So your question isn't an honest one in the least, and this entire post just devolved into stereotypical hyper partisan drivel. Gotcha.

No, the general mindset of Republicans is that the cost of it will be overwhelming and ultimately a negative on our economy and our budget but that it will follow the standard path of most social welfare programs that, regardless of their level of success, tend to be very difficult to remove. In terms of political campaigning as well, once it actually goes into affect and people get insurance under the program it makes it FAR more difficult to campaign against as well because it becomes a point that the other side can claim you're trying to take peoples insurance away.

Now, whether or not it actually DOES cause the cost of government to rise as much as Republicans fear...that's to be seen. And surely, if the cost DOESN'T go up, they would have an even HARDER time to remove it after the fact. But the baseline of their fear is a historically understood fact amongst the Political Science community in terms of social welfare programs and their status as some of the hardest programs to remove once people are actually involved in it. Based largely on the fact that basic human nature is more reticent to give up something they HAVE or believe they have, as opposed to something they don't.
 
What it accomplishes is it takes a massively flawed and growingly unpopular bill and puts it front and center again.

Then, the Dems have to re-establish their support of its KNOWN flaws, then force Obama to veto it and support a bill he continues to delay implementation because of these KNOWN flaws.
 
What it accomplishes is it takes a massively flawed and growingly unpopular bill and puts it front and center again.

Then, the Dems have to re-establish their support of its KNOWN flaws, then force Obama to veto it and support a bill he continues to delay implementation because of these KNOWN flaws.

or the senate will vote to remove the language that removes funding for the affordable care act and then send it back to the house
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/19/u...l=1&adxnnlx=1379520833-M0U+hZzlocDrMbeP5FlRag

House Bill Cuts Health Funds, Raising Odds of U.S. Shutdown

By JONATHAN WEISMAN and ASHLEY PARKER
Published: September 18, 2013

WASHINGTON — House Republican leaders — bowing to the demands of their conservative wing — will put to a vote on Friday a stopgap spending measure that would strip all funding from President Obama’s signature health care law, increasing the likelihood that the government will shut down in two weeks.


So what's going on here? Another defeat Obamacare vote? And will this shut down the government like in the 90's? If so, will it come back to bite the Republicans in the a**?

Why the urgency to defeat this "train wreck"? If that's what this is, why not let it fail and bring down its Democratic authors? Republicans have shown they can play politics with the welfare of the American people by threatening the full faith and credit of the country, so why not let the law destroy itself, then sweep in and take the credit for predicting it?

My question is, do Republicans fear that ACA will not be the disaster they predict, or even worse, a success, and are trying to sabotage it before they look bad for opposing it? Or is this just a stunt to appease their radical right wing? "Obamacare delenda est"?

To minimize damage. To take a nautical metaphor, our ship of state has a course that will run aground on a reef. Are you saying that we should just let it do so for the temporary benefit of nailing the Democrats with the blame? Would not a mark of a statesman be to prevent this?

Furthermore, this Obama Care is a threat to Liberty. I would not risk allowing it to go any further than I would have to and I do not think that the Republicans should do so either.

Obama Care is going to make health care more expensive, more scarce and rationed, and an decreasingly lower quality of care as long as it exists.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/19/u...l=1&adxnnlx=1379520833-M0U+hZzlocDrMbeP5FlRag

House Bill Cuts Health Funds, Raising Odds of U.S. Shutdown

By JONATHAN WEISMAN and ASHLEY PARKER
Published: September 18, 2013

WASHINGTON — House Republican leaders — bowing to the demands of their conservative wing — will put to a vote on Friday a stopgap spending measure that would strip all funding from President Obama’s signature health care law, increasing the likelihood that the government will shut down in two weeks.


So what's going on here? Another defeat Obamacare vote? And will this shut down the government like in the 90's? If so, will it come back to bite the Republicans in the a**?

Why the urgency to defeat this "train wreck"? If that's what this is, why not let it fail and bring down its Democratic authors? Republicans have shown they can play politics with the welfare of the American people by threatening the full faith and credit of the country, so why not let the law destroy itself, then sweep in and take the credit for predicting it?

My question is, do Republicans fear that ACA will not be the disaster they predict, or even worse, a success, and are trying to sabotage it before they look bad for opposing it? Or is this just a stunt to appease their radical right wing? "Obamacare delenda est"?

A government shut down didn't bite Republicans in the ass the last time... the only thing that bite them in the ass were the propagandists... and Americans have a lower regard for the media than they do government. Republicans picked up seats after the last shut down.

ObamaKare is defined a "train wreck" by Demokrats, and the term comes from one of the authors. So... they should know what a **** up it is.

As far as playing with the full faith and credit of the US, that mountain of debt 16 or 17 TRILLION, and 60 TRILLION of unfunded liabilities is due to Socialist legislation.

Even Demokrats like Buffett see ObamaKare as an abortion. It's simply time to take this one to the toxic waste dump and dispose of it. Step 1 is accomplished.
 
And House loons use the Bible as cover.
These House phony Christians have already received their reward, as their Bible tells them.
 
or the senate will vote to remove the language that removes funding for the affordable care act and then send it back to the house

Which they will, but you will see 3-5 up for re-election in 2014 Democratic party Senators vote against that move, just to CYA.

Still, when the exchanges open up on Oct 1st and its a total cluster-fark( see WSJ: Obamacare Software Can't 'Reliably Determine' Enrollees' Eligibility For Subsidies - Forbes ), maybe more Democrats will see the writing on the wall and move for "permanent" delay. note: definition of "permanent" is at the discretion of HHS and IRS, unless the law is changed.
 
once you actually have people participating in a social welfare program it is ridiculously difficult to take it away
only one way that these entitlement programs can be ended that comes to mind: Sovereign default
Think the unthinkable?

Well short of such a cataclysmic end, I have to imagine the future generations will chafe under the yoke of the ruinous taxation required to keep these wealth transfer schemes afloat. Means testing and a general winding down of these programs won't retire the debt but perhaps some other way of dealing with that besides monetization will be concocted? I think we can all agree we can't continue down this merry path forever?
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/19/u...l=1&adxnnlx=1379520833-M0U+hZzlocDrMbeP5FlRag

House Bill Cuts Health Funds, Raising Odds of U.S. Shutdown

By JONATHAN WEISMAN and ASHLEY PARKER
Published: September 18, 2013

WASHINGTON — House Republican leaders — bowing to the demands of their conservative wing — will put to a vote on Friday a stopgap spending measure that would strip all funding from President Obama’s signature health care law, increasing the likelihood that the government will shut down in two weeks.


So what's going on here? Another defeat Obamacare vote? And will this shut down the government like in the 90's? If so, will it come back to bite the Republicans in the a**?

Why the urgency to defeat this "train wreck"? If that's what this is, why not let it fail and bring down its Democratic authors? Republicans have shown they can play politics with the welfare of the American people by threatening the full faith and credit of the country, so why not let the law destroy itself, then sweep in and take the credit for predicting it?

My question is, do Republicans fear that ACA will not be the disaster they predict, or even worse, a success, and are trying to sabotage it before they look bad for opposing it? Or is this just a stunt to appease their radical right wing? "Obamacare delenda est"?
The reason is a very, very simple one - and one that makes sense, if you think about it. Our legislators, regardless what letter is behind their name, know that once a bill becomes law, it becomes nearly impossible to repeal. You can change and alter it all you want, but the important thing is to get it passed - which explains Ms. Pelosi's statement "we need to pass the bill to know what's in it." She didn't CARE what was in it, all she cared about was that it get passed.

Similarly, those of us who know the abomination that bill is and the danger it represents not only to our liberty but to the very definition of who we are as a nation did not, do not want the bill passed. We never wanted to abdicate 1/6th of this nation's economy to the control of the federal government, giving the federal government that much more power - in the largest chunk of power in this nation's history. When it did pass, our only alternative was to see that it never get implemented. Repeal, defunding, etc. are only practically possible soon after passage.

Forget "health care" and think freedom and liberty. That's what Obamacare has ALWAYS been about for us.

Consider too that progressives have been trying to shove this power grab down American's throats for over 100 years - about every 15 years or so some new progressive has put forth some form of government-run health care since Teddy Roosevelt first attempted it. Democrats what people to believe it's about "health care" - it's NOT. It has NEVER been about health care. It has ALWAYS been about power. Pure and simple. Raw power.
 
The only people who are using it for political purposes are those who refuse to pass it. The debt ceiling should be a non-issue; it is just a means of funding spending programs that were already approved. There shouldn't even be any negotiation required on either side about this. If you didn't want to pay for the spending programs, you shouldn't have voted for them. This is why it was never an issue in the past.

In the past the debt wasn't so large that it threatened the economic future of our country as much. We are at or nearly at the point that as we increase our debt we will not be able to keep up with the budget and will go into a debt spiral.

Futhermore, No, the Congress has not passed a budget for at least 2 Congresses now and has been going on a "Continuing Resolution Budget". This should be Unconstitutional. Our representatives has NOT agreed to a budget in this Congress and should not be bound by the decisions of a prior Congress and since the only tool available to negotiate now is the purse.
 
Hey, guess what? It's Friday night, with Saturday and Sunday coming up. The government has shut down! Oh, no! What are we going to do?
 
The reason is a very, very simple one - and one that makes sense, if you think about it. Our legislators, regardless what letter is behind their name, know that once a bill becomes law, it becomes nearly impossible to repeal. You can change and alter it all you want, but the important thing is to get it passed - which explains Ms. Pelosi's statement "we need to pass the bill to know what's in it." She didn't CARE what was in it, all she cared about was that it get passed.

Similarly, those of us who know the abomination that bill is and the danger it represents not only to our liberty but to the very definition of who we are as a nation did not, do not want the bill passed. We never wanted to abdicate 1/6th of this nation's economy to the control of the federal government, giving the federal government that much more power - in the largest chunk of power in this nation's history. When it did pass, our only alternative was to see that it never get implemented. Repeal, defunding, etc. are only practically possible soon after passage.

Forget "health care" and think freedom and liberty. That's what Obamacare has ALWAYS been about for us.

Consider too that progressives have been trying to shove this power grab down American's throats for over 100 years - about every 15 years or so some new progressive has put forth some form of government-run health care since Teddy Roosevelt first attempted it. Democrats what people to believe it's about "health care" - it's NOT. It has NEVER been about health care. It has ALWAYS been about power. Pure and simple. Raw power.

and being denied medical insurance simply for having a preexisting condition, something that is up to the insurance company to define, is what exactly? a sign of flawless freemarket principles?
 
In the past the debt wasn't so large that it threatened the economic future of our country as much. We are at or nearly at the point that as we increase our debt we will not be able to keep up with the budget and will go into a debt spiral.

Futhermore, No, the Congress has not passed a budget for at least 2 Congresses now and has been going on a "Continuing Resolution Budget". This should be Unconstitutional. Our representatives has NOT agreed to a budget in this Congress and should not be bound by the decisions of a prior Congress and since the only tool available to negotiate now is the purse.

what exactly will the debt do to us? make china invade and buy up all our land?
 
and being denied medical insurance simply for having a preexisting condition, something that is up to the insurance company to define, is what exactly? a sign of flawless freemarket principles?

You're catching on. Why should insurance companies be forced to accept individuals who don't seek out their services until they need it?
 
Congress is trying to pass a bill to defund a law they passed, and if the law they passed isn't defunded by Congress, then Congress will decide to temporarily suspend the government they are responsible (while they themselves are still getting paid) for from work, and likely not pay the bills Congress accumulated.


Take partisanship out of it for just a second and take a moment to think how utterly ridiculous this situation is.

You mean a bill that was passed 2 Congresses ago. This Congress the House wants to repeal or modify the bill and the President and the Senate are not giveing this any consideration. However the President is making all sort of waivers on what was passed (but not on individuals or small businesses). If the President has to give so many waivers then it is a bad law and needs to be repealed or greatly modified.

Also the government is not suspended and non-core services are put on hold. No doubt the President could still fraudulently threaten our Seniors with holding their SS payments (which are still funded by wage-payers).
 
Hey, guess what? It's Friday night, with Saturday and Sunday coming up. The government has shut down! Oh, no! What are we going to do?
hah yeah wouldn't it be a real hoot if we actually did wind down the government? Privatize all the things they are currently involved in that they have no business doing and returning to some semblance of fiscal sanity? Never gonna happen but what does it hurt to dream?

nohniv.jpg
 
You're catching on. Why should insurance companies be forced to accept individuals who don't seek out their services until they need it?

because in perfectly just society, they would be accused of negligence if the individual seeking insurance dies because she could not afford to pay the costs of health insurance.

doctors have something called the Hippocratic oath, maybe we should expect health insurance company's to swear a similar oath.
 
because in perfectly just society, they would be accused of negligence if the individual seeking insurance dies because she could not afford to pay the costs of health insurance.

doctors have something called the Hippocratic oath, maybe we should expect health insurance company's to swear a similar oath.

Do you have similar convictions when discussing a doctor's participation in abortion? Insurance companies are in business to provide a service to those who pay premiums, not those who don't...
 
and being denied medical insurance simply for having a preexisting condition, something that is up to the insurance company to define, is what exactly? a sign of flawless freemarket principles?

No, one of the most important aspects of insurance. Buying insurance AFTER something has happened isn't insurance.
 
If non-establishment Republicans need to re-learn the lesson from the last government shut down, let them. The establishment mostly doesn't want to see this happen again, but God knows others do.

The media did not do their "job" in reporting the facts on the matter objectively before. This is a new time people have more access to information now and the people who are not dyed in the wool Dem supporters will be able to get info that the MSM doesn't want to discuss (and they will be forced to discuss it anyway). And remember there still is a majority of the population that does not like Obama Care.
 
Back
Top Bottom