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Honest question: are we making a mistake by not getting involved militarily to help stop the Russian invasion.

You're leaving one part out of the equation: Putin isn't a rational ruler. He's a madman.

And if he's truly mad, then it won't matter what we do.

I don't think he's mad. I think he's a big time poker player. He plays bullshit poker. He calls bets so big that others assume he must have a winning hand. Yet if we look at how badly he ****ed up with his convoys to Kyiv, we'd realize that he's not even connected to what his army's capabilities are. He just knows that he has lots of Roman candles, and that we're scared of the possibilities. We'd rather watch sports, watch our favorite Netflix dramas, go out to bars, and bet on memecoins than worry about getting dirty and fighting him, and that's exactly what he's counting on.

No, it's past time to confront Putin. We can start by enforcing a no-fly zone. And if he fires on our aircraft, we fire back. We give Russia 72 hours to start packing those convoys back up, and if they don't start moving then they're fair game for our B-2 and F-117 bombers.
 
Sure it is - you just don't want to be honest that: No Fly Zone = direct military clash with Russian forces = WW3

Russia succeeds in Ukraine, sees we did nothing to stop him, then attacks Poland also = WW3
 
I understand the obvious reasons for not doing it, but my honest question is whether that will actually get us anything in the long run.
It will change your Standard of Living, assuming you're an American.

The US is an empire and has been since 1898. Like all empires, it must expand into new markets or the empire will stagnate, and then collapse.

You need only do a cursory review of history to know that is true. Note that the collapse is not sudden, meaning it doesn't happen overnight or over the course of weeks or months, but usually is 2-4 generations.

Perhaps it is best if your own government explains it to you:

The costs of not implementing this strategy are clear. Failure to meet our defense objectives will result in decreasing U.S. global influence, eroding cohesion among allies and partners, and reduced access to markets that will contribute to a decline in our prosperity and standard of living.

[emphasis mine]


It's called Geo-Political Strategy. Only a few countries have one, because it costs a lot of money and requires a lot of assets and the labor to do it.

Denmark cannot, because it does not have satellites or global aerial recon capability; doesn't have carrier battle groups or amphibious assault groups; doesn't have air power or a large military; doesn't have the intelligence network or even the ability to gather intelligence; and doesn't have the money.

Some countries are capable of a Regional Geo-Political Strategy. India would be one. Brasil is another.

The end-game of US Geo-Political Strategy is for the US and Britain to gain control of the eastern Russian republics and carve it up for themselves, and maybe throw France and Germany a bone.

Russia knows that, which is why they have invaded Ukraine, and that's also why the US bombed Yugoslavia and Libya and bankrolled the Arab Spring and invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and is now involved in Syria.

The US/NATO have successfully driven Russia out of the Mediterranean Sea, save for Syria, in its attempt to pen Russia up in the Black Sea.

For instance, is Putin any more likely to use nukes now if we establish a no-fly zone and or use our air power to help stop his advances, than he is in 6 months when his economy is totally cratered from sanctions and he is surrounded by domestic opposition. Or are we just buying time, simply because "nukes in 6 months" is better than "nukes next week?"
Had you been a NATO observer on Druzba '86 with me tasked with observing Soviet nuclear weapons operations in a field environment, you'd know that Russia's nuclear weapons policy was always no first-use, no escalation and quid pro quo response.

If you understand that, then you'll understand why Russia's response to the aggressive and hostile US/NATO deployment of Jupiter IRBMs to Italy and Turkey was to deploy SS-4 and SS-5 IRBMs to Cuba, which is erroneously referred to as the Cuban Missile Crisis even though it is more accurate to call it the Kennedy Political Crisis.

That aggressive hostile action by US/NATO allowed the US to target 100s of cities in East Bloc States, including Moscow.

The only way Russia could respond to a Jupiter IRBM attack on Moscow would be to escalate to an ICBM attack on Washington DC, and that was unthinkable, even for the Soviets.

By putting IRBMs in Cuba, Russia negated the US/NATO advantage and restored parity, since the US is not likely to launch a Jupiter and nuke Moscow knowing that Russia can respond in-kind and launch an SS-4 to nuke Washington DC.

While the US withdrew and dismantled it's ERWs --Enhanced Radiation Warheads or as the Media prefers: Neutron Bombs -- the Russians still have ~3,000 neutron warheads consisting of 1 kt artillery fired projectiles (similar to the 1 kt device the US had) and short-range missile warheads in the 5 kt to 12 kt range (similar to the 10 kt Lance neutron warhead) and gravity bombs in the 1 kt to 12 kt range.

Note that it is not possible to build neutron bombs greater than 20 kt.

And if he ultimately succeeds in Ukraine despite early setbacks, will he not just be emboldened to go further?

It is ironic that you mentioned a No-Fly Zone, because the reason the US wants Ukraine as a NATO member-State is so the US can use air bases in Ukraine to enforce a No-Fly Zone over Russia while the US and Britain are carving up eastern Russia.

The only expansionist forces here are US/NATO expansion. Russia just wants a neutral buffer-State, which is something Russia has historically insisted upon having for centuries, so it's not "new."
 
The reason Putin invaded Ukraine was because he felt threatened by the prospect of Ukraine gaining NATO membership. There is no benefit for the stability of his rule and Russia as a whole to just randomly invade a non-NATO state like Finland with no plans to join NATO.
The reason he invaded Ukraine was because Russia can't tolerate a independent Ukraine. NATO was just an excuse (and Ukraine was never close to gain NATO membership, though they undestandeingly really wanted it),
 
And if he's truly mad, then it won't matter what we do.

I don't think he's mad. I think he's a big time poker player. He plays bullshit poker. He calls bets so big that others assume he must have a winning hand. Yet if we look at how badly he ****ed up with his convoys to Kyiv, we'd realize that he's not even connected to what his army's capabilities are. He just knows that he has lots of Roman candles, and that we're scared of the possibilities. We'd rather watch sports, watch our favorite Netflix dramas, go out to bars, and bet on memecoins than worry about getting dirty and fighting him, and that's exactly what he's counting on.

No, it's past time to confront Putin. We can start by enforcing a no-fly zone. And if he fires on our aircraft, we fire back. We give Russia 72 hours to start packing those convoys back up, and if they don't start moving then they're fair game for our B-2 and F-117 bombers.

Putin needs a push, but not so far as trigger a tactical nuclear strike. It's time to squeeze slowly...just as he has done for 8 years. It begins with Biden and Nato issuing a formal set of redlines.

First, at least a 1/4 of Ukraine in the west is a no fly zone. While Ukrainian military bases and formations are not under NATO protection, all cities, towns, and villages are. Any strike on civilian targets will be punished.

Second, planes should be provided to Ukraine.

Third, Nato soldiers as "volunteers" should be sent in with serious weapons system such as the Patriot and Israeli "Iron Domes".

This, of course, would just be a beginning. Later NATO will demand surrounded cities will be entitled to humanitarian relief missions, including airlifts. Any interference with these airlifts will be dealt with. Russians will be granted the right to inspect the airlifts for arms or ammunition.,,, initially.

The point here is simple: do what the Russians did in the Donbas. Not less.
 
What makes you think that?

Russia does not see NATO-aligned Poland as a threat to its existence, whereas it does see a NATO-aligned Ukraine as one.
 
Russia does not see NATO-aligned Poland as a threat to its existence, whereas it does see a NATO-aligned Ukraine as one.

One delusion begets another. Give it time. Once Ukraine is part of Russia, Putin will just start whining about having a NATO member on his border. Rinse, repeat.
 
One delusion begets another. Give it time. Once Ukraine is part of Russia, Putin will just start whining about having a NATO member on his border. Rinse, repeat.

There already are NATO countries on Russia's borders; the Baltics. The difference being the Baltics don't pose the kind of threat Ukraine does.
 
Open for discussion. This is really an honest question. I'm not criticizing anyone for decisions they've made, as I realize this is very complicated and the potential consequences are massive. So please save your arrows for my other comments.

I understand the obvious reasons for not doing it, but my honest question is whether that will actually get us anything in the long run. For instance, is Putin any more likely to use nukes now if we establish a no-fly zone and or use our air power to help stop his advances, than he is in 6 months when his economy is totally cratered from sanctions and he is surrounded by domestic opposition. Or are we just buying time, simply because "nukes in 6 months" is better than "nukes next week?"

And if he ultimately succeeds in Ukraine despite early setbacks, will he not just be emboldened to go further? And what does our inaction say to China, who knows we probably cannot afford to impose the same kind of sanctions against them?

Or, to view it very cynically, is the potentially inevitable fall of Ukraine an acceptable loss that allows Putin to save face, while the unexpected cost of "victory" will be enough to dissuade him from further "adventures" (and perhaps discourage China from making the same mistake with Taiwan).

Thoughts?

No. We aren't IMO.
The US has its work cut out, trying to get its own house in order. Whats going on in Ukraine is a damn shame, but none of my or the USAs concern. Its a regional conflict that I do not believe will spill beyond the eastern part of Ukraine.
I support sanctions on Russia, and an indirect role facilitating weapons to the Ukraine people to help them defend themselves. Nothing more than that.
 
There already are NATO countries on Russia's borders; the Baltics. The difference being the Baltics don't pose the kind of threat Ukraine does.

What threat does Ukraine pose?
 
What threat does Ukraine pose?

Well to clarify, it's not Ukraine itself but a NATO friendly Ukraine, which the Russians are convinced is the final step in the eventual invasion of Russia.

Ukraine sirs atop the Eurasian steppe and between the Dnieper and the Volga there is Russians agricultural heartland, Voronezh, Volgograd, Rostov, Saratov, and Kursk.
 
Russia does not see NATO-aligned Poland as a threat to its existence, whereas it does see a NATO-aligned Ukraine as one.
I suggest that it sees a non-Nato-aligned Ukraine on its border as a threat as well, IF it cannot exert influence upon it to the point of actually ruling it.

The recent "unrest" in Belorussia was probably enough of a reminder of Russia's own unrest against Putin in Moscow some years back, to have him miss some sleep.

Anyone having followed his utterings over the years will have seen how he considers democracy the worst threat, especially if it rears its dangerous head in what used to be Soviet (and thus Russian-ruled) republics.

Such a thing happening in a "brother" nation holds in Putin's mind the dangerous precedent of "encourager les autres". He's stated more than once his affinity for dictatorship, preferably his.
 
Well to clarify, it's not Ukraine itself but a NATO friendly Ukraine, which the Russians are convinced is the final step in the eventual invasion of Russia.

Ukraine sirs atop the Eurasian steppe and between the Dnieper and the Volga there is Russians agricultural heartland, Voronezh, Volgograd, Rostov, Saratov, and Kursk.

Except that the idea that anyone wants to invade Russia is just more bullshit propaganda being used by Putin to convince his subjects that he needs to absorb Ukraine. It's not Russia that is threatened by a democratic Ukraine on its border. It's Putin. But the greatest threat to Putin is Russia, not Ukraine.
 
Except that the idea that anyone wants to invade Russia is just more bullshit propaganda being used by Putin to convince his subjects that he needs to absorb Ukraine.

Oh, for sure. But it's why they freak out over Ukraine and not the Baltics or Poland.
 
Open for discussion. This is really an honest question. I'm not criticizing anyone for decisions they've made, as I realize this is very complicated and the potential consequences are massive. So please save your arrows for my other comments.

I understand the obvious reasons for not doing it, but my honest question is whether that will actually get us anything in the long run. For instance, is Putin any more likely to use nukes now if we establish a no-fly zone and or use our air power to help stop his advances, than he is in 6 months when his economy is totally cratered from sanctions and he is surrounded by domestic opposition. Or are we just buying time, simply because "nukes in 6 months" is better than "nukes next week?"

And if he ultimately succeeds in Ukraine despite early setbacks, will he not just be emboldened to go further? And what does our inaction say to China, who knows we probably cannot afford to impose the same kind of sanctions against them?

Or, to view it very cynically, is the potentially inevitable fall of Ukraine an acceptable loss that allows Putin to save face, while the unexpected cost of "victory" will be enough to dissuade him from further "adventures" (and perhaps discourage China from making the same mistake with Taiwan).

Thoughts?

Let's say we take the risk of some miscalculation leading to a nuclear war off the table... that we know with 95% confidence that a conventional air-to-air conflict with Russia wouldn't lead to a nuclear exchange. Given that fact - what would be the legal basis for imposing a no-fly zone assuming a UN Security Council Resolution or Congressional Authorization are unobtainable?
 
Open for discussion. This is really an honest question. I'm not criticizing anyone for decisions they've made

Timing.
Jumping the gun and going all out too soon is perhaps just as bad as waiting too long when it's not us against them, even though in many ways, it really IS...Ukraine is considered a democracy, warts and all.
But still, the Russians aren't in the Penobscot River or attacking Los Angeles, so the timing is difficult, although I sadly acknowledge that it is much more difficult for Ukrainians.

Now, all that having been said, is there any value in positioning ourselves as the ones who "don't start anything, but we FINISH them." ?
I think there's NO GOOD options but of them all I would like to think the above option is the best among them.
I would vastly prefer taking pride in the American people being ones who will, at some point, say
"Okay, enough is enough, now this is directly threatening world peace and our OWN security, there is no other option anymore."

No phony talk of prowess, swagger, bluster or bravado...that would make me a chickenhawk because I never served our country in uniform and I hesitate to play fast and loose with the lives
of brave young American men and women who are, and who already have. For them I have the utmost respect, but also the confidence that they know better than I when it is time to
say "Enough is enough".
I have insufficient privileges to bang the war drum.
All I can say is, I LIVE HERE, so I am on the team, I am proud of democracy and I acknowledge that the price of freedom is sometimes pretty awful.
I can defer to my Navy veteran wife.
She gets to bang the war drum if she sees fit.
 
And if he ultimately succeeds in Ukraine despite early setbacks, will he not just be emboldened to go further?

From where I sit, I think it's a given that taking Ukraine will never be enough for Putin.
Call it "seeing a familiar pattern" if you wish.
I think of giving scraps to a hungry bear who knows you've stashed the bulk of your food in your car, which you foolishly think is safe because you locked it.

1647724695016.png

There's a reason Russians use the bear as a mascot.
And I think Ukraine is just a scrap, and that Putin wants the full meal, even if it just means taking a bite of everybody else's.
Eventually he will be emboldened to do exactly what everyone knows he wants to do.
NATO was originally formed against Soviet encroachment into Europe.
Taking Ukraine IS tantamount to Soviet encroachment into Europe even if they're no longer "soviet".

Switching from Coke to Pepsi doesn't change that fact.
 
Let's say we take the risk of some miscalculation leading to a nuclear war off the table... that we know with 95% confidence that a conventional air-to-air conflict with Russia wouldn't lead to a nuclear exchange. Given that fact - what would be the legal basis for imposing a no-fly zone assuming a UN Security Council Resolution or Congressional Authorization are unobtainable?

The legal basis would be that Ukraine has asked us to do it, and it's their country.
 
The legal basis would be that Ukraine has asked us to do it, and it's their country.

True... but we don't have a treaty obligation to defend Ukraine. If we're going to intervene, we need to establish Jus ad bellum. Dot the i's and cross the t's.

We could just rely on the War Powers Resolution... but that only gives the President a 60-day blank check before he has to obtain Congressional authorization. How confident are you any intervention could be accomplished within that time frame?
 
I think Biden is doing the right thing and I think the whole world is against Putin.....and that will be his ultimate demise.....that being said for NATO to just stand by and thousands are slaughtered just to appease Putin is a travesty.....it's the exact scenario Hitler used to start WW2.......sanctions are the best path because the Russian people must understand that Putin is not their best road back to super power status......
 
The legal basis would be that Ukraine has asked us to do it, and it's their country.

Well get your rear end on over there if you think you should be at the beck and call of the Ukraine government.
They'll put you to work.
Why aren't you packing?
 
Well get your rear end on over there if you think you should be at the beck and call of the Ukraine government.
They'll put you to work.
Why aren't you packing?

Wow, great argument. You're a genius.
 
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