Holocaust vs Limbergh's America First Efforts

calamity · Oct 11, 2018

It's September, 1941, and Charlie is fully entrenched in the anti-war effort. Here's a quote.

"Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences. Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastation."

He went on to warn of "large [Jewish] ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our government..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lindbergh#Pre-war_activities_and_politics

Let's stipulate that he was indeed an anti-Semite (very little evidence points to the contrary, although his wife claimed otherwise). Also, we need to take into account that his "tolerance" speech quoted above coincided with Germans deporting their Jews, the establishment of Jewish ghettos in Poland and Operation Barbarrosa; which along with it, introduced the wholesale slaughter of Eastern European Jews. All of these atrocities were all already in full swing by Sept 1941. There is no way that Lindbergh could not have known about them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Millions supported the idea of non-interventionist, neutrality. The largest of them was a band in Chicago named America First; for which Lindbergh was the chief spokesman.

The America First Committee (AFC) was the foremost United States non-interventionist pressure group against the American entry into World War II. Started on September 4, 1940, it was dissolved on December 10, 1941, three days after the attack on Pearl Harbor had brought the war to America. Membership peaked at 800,000 paying members in 450 chapters. It was one of the largest anti-war organizations in American history.

...Two men who would later become presidents, John F. Kennedy and Gerald Ford, supported and contributed to the organization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee

The fundamental point of contention was Roosevelt's "Lend Lease" policy:

The Lend-Lease policy...an American program to defeat Germany, Japan and Italy by distributing food, oil, and materiel between 1941 and August 1945. The aid went to the United Kingdom, China, and later the Soviet Union, Free France, and other Allied nations. It included warships and warplanes, along with other weaponry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

a policy which rendered all pretense of US neutrality essentially meaningless. The biggest argument for neutrality and against Roosevelt policy seems to have been the general distaste all throughout America for helping Communist Russia.

The alternative history questions:

1. Would Germany have won the war if not for US intervention?

2. Would the Holocaust have occurred had Germany won the war?

3. How different would the world be if Lindbergh had run in 1940*, and he managed to pull off a Trump by winning the White House?

Note: *

The Plot Against America is a novel by Philip Roth published in 2004. It is an alternative history in which Franklin D. Roosevelt is defeated in the presidential election of 1940 by Charles Lindbergh. The novel follows the fortunes of the Roth family during the Lindbergh presidency, as antisemitism becomes more accepted in American life and Jewish-American families like the Roths are persecuted on various levels. The narrator and central character in the novel is the young Philip, and the care with which his confusion and terror are rendered makes the novel as much about the mysteries of growing up as about American politics. Roth based his novel on the isolationist ideas espoused by Lindbergh in real life as a spokesman for the America First Committee...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plot_Against_America

joko104 · Oct 11, 2018

calamity said:
It's September, 1941, and Charlie is fully entrenched in the anti-war effort. Here's a quote.

Let's stipulate that he was indeed an anti-Semite (very little evidence points to the contrary, although his wife claimed otherwise). Also, we need to take into account that his "tolerance" speech quoted above coincided with Germans deporting their Jews, the establishment of Jewish ghettos in Poland and Operation Barbarrosa; which along with it, introduced the wholesale slaughter of Eastern European Jews. All of these atrocities were all already in full swing by Sept 1941. There is no way that Lindbergh could not have known about them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Millions supported the idea of non-interventionist, neutrality. The largest of them was a band in Chicago named America First; for which Lindbergh was the chief spokesman.

The fundamental point of contention was Roosevelt's "Lend Lease" policy:

a policy which rendered all pretense of US neutrality essentially meaningless. The biggest argument for neutrality and against Roosevelt policy seems to have been the general distaste all throughout America for helping Communist Russia.

The alternative history questions:

1. Would Germany have won the war if not for US intervention?

2. Would the Holocaust have occurred had Germany won the war?

3. How different would the world be if Lindbergh had run in 1940*, and he managed to pull off a Trump by winning the White House?

Note: *

1. Without the USA Germany and Japan would have won the war. The UK would have collapsed allowing Germany to put all it's forces against Russia. Basically no one would be opposing Japan.

2. This question makes no sense. The holocaust began while Germany was winning the war.

3. Pointless question and has no relevancy to Trump. However, since Japan attacked the USA and Germany declared war on the USA, the answer is the USA would have been in the war regardless. (Why do some members feel they have to put Trump into ever topic no matter what it is?)

calamity · Oct 11, 2018

joko104 said:
1. Without the USA Germany and Japan would have won the war. The UK would have collapsed allowing Germany to put all it's forces against Russia. Basically no one would be opposing Japan.

2. This question makes no sense. The holocaust began while Germany was winning the war.

3. Pointless question and has no relevancy to Trump. However, since Japan attacked the USA and Germany declared war on the USA, the answer is the USA would have been in the war regardless. (Why do some members feel they have to put Trump into ever topic no matter what it is?)

3. Trump was brought up in a positive light: he won the election against improbably high odds. This too would have been Lindbergh's fate had he shown up at the contested GOP convention of 1940, as is the premise of the Roth novel cited at the end of the op; a convention which in real life required 6 floor votes to nominate the relatively unknown Wilkie.

2. You misunderstood the point of question 2. Lindbergh implies, in the quote at the beginning of the op, that the Jews would be fine as long as World War is not declared---meaning he believed Hitler instead of what he saw and heard. So, one can ask. Had the Nazis won the war, would they have given the Jews a homeland? I do not believe they would have, but the question is legit.

1. We were attacked by Japan for reasons listed in the Lend Lease policy. We were not neutral. What would have happened had we remained neutral? Yes. Germany and Japan would have won--no question. But, what would have happened?

The US was not exactly opposed to Nazi stuff. So, the real issue to address in 1.) is: what would we have done had Germany become the new Eurasian powerhouse instead of the USSR?

Rich2018 · Oct 11, 2018

calamity said:
...The alternative history questions:

1. Would Germany have won the war if not for US intervention?

2. Would the Holocaust have occurred had Germany won the war?

3. How different would the world be if Lindbergh had run in 1940*, and he managed to pull off a Trump by winning the White House?

Note: *

1. You have to remember that the USA was only non-interventionist in Europe.
In the Pacific the USA was HIGHLY interventionist. The whole reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor was because the USA's foreign and economic policies boxed Japan into a corner - either it gave up it's illegal and brutal imperial expansions in Asia or went to war with the USA

The USA basically forced the issue with Japan

In Europe, without US involvement either Nazi Germany or the USSR wins...neither would be palatable to the USA.
Even the most anti-British American (probably Joe Kennedy) would not have stood for Britain and it's empire being taken over by Hitler or Stalin.

If the British were alarmed at the prospect of Hitler getting the French fleet...how alarmed with the USA get at the prospect of Hitler (or Stalin) getting the Royal Navy?

2. As already answered - the Holocaust was in full swing while Germany was already winning...

3. Lindbergh would go to war with Japan and win as in the OTL...and be forced to take action in Europe at some point.

calamity · Oct 12, 2018

Rich2018 said:
1. You have to remember that the USA was only non-interventionist in Europe.
In the Pacific the USA was HIGHLY interventionist. The whole reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor was because the USA's foreign and economic policies boxed Japan into a corner - either it gave up it's illegal and brutal imperial expansions in Asia or went to war with the USA

The USA basically forced the issue with Japan

In Europe, without US involvement either Nazi Germany or the USSR wins...neither would be palatable to the USA.
Even the most anti-British American (probably Joe Kennedy) would not have stood for Britain and it's empire being taken over by Hitler or Stalin.

If the British were alarmed at the prospect of Hitler getting the French fleet...how alarmed with the USA get at the prospect of Hitler (or Stalin) getting the Royal Navy?

2. As already answered - the Holocaust was in full swing while Germany was already winning...

3. Lindbergh would go to war with Japan and win as in the OTL...and be forced to take action in Europe at some point.

Interesting bit of history I picked up on recently was that the Brits began transferring tech to the Americans shortly after Dunkirk. From sonar to detect submarines to jet engines for fighters, the US suddenly began manufacturing British designs en masse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission

So, we were in, even if we pretended we were not.

Zachariah · Oct 12, 2018

The whole 'Hollywood Jew' scare is just weird; most of them were hard core patriots and glorified WASP culture more than WASPs did, especially Louis B. Mayer, Sam Goldwyn, Adolph Zukor, the Warner brothers, and Carl Laemille; they were mostly almost fanatical assimilationists, even while remaining Jewish in religion.

As for 'antisemitism', many Jews were not Zionist, and confused the issue enough for Truman to be on the fence re public policy supporting partition in Palestine as President, though in his personal life he had joined a pro-Zionist lobby group in 1922.

While many Americans were well aware of Hitler's anti-Jewish beliefs, few knew of the Operation Reinhardt death camps; they only operated for a short period outside of Germany, and were closed in early 1943, covered over and disguised, known only via occasional dispatches from the Polish underground, who didn't know for certain for months what their purpose was. These were the actual camps whose only purpose was mass extermination; the others were work camps.

In the end the American people themselves supported the partition of Israel, because it reminded many of our own past, as settlers surrounded by murderous savages in the wilderness. It was a ridiculous idea that we should have kept Jews and other DP's in concentration camps forever, much less pander to the sniveling of Arab councils that supported Hitler during the war, as the British were doing. FDR was weak, caving in to the Saudi king re a Jewish state in Palestine, leaving yet another policy mess for Truman to deal with.

calamity · Oct 12, 2018

Zachariah said:
The whole 'Hollywood Jew' scare is just weird; most of them were hard core patriots and glorified WASP culture more than WASPs did, especially Louis B. Mayer, Sam Goldwyn, Adolph Zukor, the Warner brothers, and Carl Laemille; they were mostly almost fanatical assimilationists, even while remaining Jewish in religion.

As for 'antisemitism', many Jews were not Zionist, and confused the issue enough for Truman to be on the fence re public policy supporting partition in Palestine as President, though in his personal life he had joined a pro-Zionist lobby group in 1922.

While many Americans were well aware of Hitler's anti-Jewish beliefs, few knew of the Operation Reinhardt death camps; they only operated for a short period outside of Germany, and were closed in early 1943, covered over and disguised, known only via occasional dispatches from the Polish underground, who didn't know for certain for months what their purpose was. These were the actual camps whose only purpose was mass extermination; the others were work camps.

In the end the American people themselves supported the partition of Israel, because it reminded many of our own past, as settlers surrounded by murderous savages in the wilderness. It was a ridiculous idea that we should have kept Jews and other DP's in concentration camps forever, much less pander to the sniveling of Arab councils that supported Hitler during the war, as the British were doing. FDR was weak, caving in to the Saudi king re a Jewish state in Palestine, leaving yet another policy mess for Truman to deal with.

OIL, also known as petro.

Tom Horn · Oct 12, 2018

Typical leftist stooge. CL flew a P-38 Lightning in the pacific. Showed the pilots how to “ put it into overdrive “

Zachariah · Oct 12, 2018

calamity said:
OIL, also known as petro.

For the Brits, yes; for many it was the fear of Arab armies wiping them all out or requiring the US to send in troops if we committed to the partition; we had other fish to fry at the time that needs attention, so starting up brush fires was not on the agenda for the US.Most of the problem was British caused.

Zachariah · Oct 12, 2018

Tom Horn said:
Typical leftist stooge. CL flew a P-38 Lightning in the pacific. Showed the pilots how to “ put it into overdrive “

Hitler had a lot of fans overseas before Germany declared war on us. Joseph Kennedy for one, many others as well were impressed with him, and the same for Britain.

Tom Horn · Oct 12, 2018

Zachariah said:
Hitler had a lot of fans overseas before Germany declared war on us. Joseph Kennedy for one, many others as well were impressed with him, and the same for Britain.

The lack of correspondence with Rabe after his recall from China should’ve been enough to show the rest of the world what AH was all about.

Manc Skipper · Oct 12, 2018

"Settlers surrounded by murderous savages in the wilderness" That's a bizarre rehash of events. Project much?

Verax · Oct 12, 2018

I believe the USSR beat back Germany without any help from the U.S. by the time the tide turned in Stalingrad. With Hitler's penchant for making blunderous military decisions and the USSR's unlimited manpower, I think Germany would have ended up in a different bad position eventually.

calamity · Oct 12, 2018

Verax said:
I believe the USSR beat back Germany without any help from the U.S. by the time the tide turned in Stalingrad. With Hitler's penchant for making blunderous military decisions and the USSR's unlimited manpower, I think Germany would have ended up in a different bad position eventually.

They benefited tremendously from our weapons, trucks, tanks and aircraft parts.

The Red Army used extensive quantities of Lend-Lease tanks and other armoured vehicles from the USA, Great Britain and Canada. A total of 22,800 armoured vehicles were supplied to the Red Army during the war...

The first shipments of tanks were dispatched in 1941, amounting to 487 Matilda II, Valentines and Tetrarch tanks from the UK and 182 M3A1 Stuart light tanks and M3 Lee medium tanks from the USA.

In 1942, Britain provided a further 2,487 tanks and the USA 3,023 tanks. The first units equipped with Valentines and Matildas went into service in the Staraya Russa and Valdai areas in December 1941 and January 1942.

At the beginning of 1943, there were 1,023 Lend-Lease tanks in Russian units although 6,179 had been received since 1941.

https://ww2-weapons.com/lend-lease-tanks-and-aircrafts/

Battle of Stalingrad was 1942; German 6th Army surrendered in Feb of '43.

calamity · Oct 12, 2018

Zachariah said:
Hitler had a lot of fans overseas before Germany declared war on us. Joseph Kennedy for one, many others as well were impressed with him, and the same for Britain.

Absolutely. Henry Ford was one of Adolf's biggest fans. Apparently the feelings were mutual.

In Germany, Ford's antisemitic articles from The Dearborn Independent were issued in four volumes, cumulatively titled The International Jew, the World's Foremost Problem published by Theodor Fritsch, founder of several antisemitic parties and a member of the Reichstag. In a letter written in 1924, Heinrich Himmler described Ford as "one of our most valuable, important, and witty fighters".[61] Ford is the only American mentioned favorably in Mein Kampf, although he is only mentioned twice:[62] Adolf Hitler wrote, "only a single great man, Ford, [who], to [the Jews'] fury, still maintains full independence...[from] the controlling masters of the producers in a nation of one hundred and twenty millions." Speaking in 1931 to a Detroit News reporter, Hitler said he regarded Ford as his "inspiration", explaining his reason for keeping Ford's life-size portrait next to his desk.[63] Steven Watts wrote that Hitler "revered" Ford, proclaiming that "I shall do my best to put his theories into practice in Germany", and modeling the Volkswagen, the people's car, on the Model T.[64] Max Wallace has stated "History records that ... Adolf Hitler was an ardent Anti-Semite before he ever read Ford's The International Jew."[65] Under Ford, the newspaper also reprinted the antisemitic fabricated text The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford#The_Dearborn_Independent_and_antisemitism

calamity · Oct 12, 2018

Tom Horn said:
Typical leftist stooge. CL flew a P-38 Lightning in the pacific. Showed the pilots how to “ put it into overdrive “

American Racists who hated Jews also hated Japanese. No surprise there. But, all of them adored Adolf, at least up until it was no longer sustainable to be a good American and a Nazi lover.

Tom Horn · Oct 12, 2018

Verax said:
I believe the USSR beat back Germany without any help from the U.S. by the time the tide turned in Stalingrad. With Hitler's penchant for making blunderous military decisions and the USSR's unlimited manpower, I think Germany would have ended up in a different bad position eventually.

The amount of P-39s and Grant tanks were endless.

Tom Horn · Oct 12, 2018

calamity said:
American Racists who hated Jews also hated Japanese. No surprise there. But, all of them adored Adolf, at least up until it was no longer sustainable to be a good American and a Nazi lover.

Speak English. You can’t hate Juden, Japs and Chinese, and adore Nungs, Karen and Hmong.

Verax · Oct 12, 2018

calamity said:
They benefited tremendously from our weapons, trucks, tanks and aircraft parts.

Battle of Stalingrad was 1942; German 6th Army surrendered in Feb of '43.

Ahh, I thought the help came later. Yeah that probably did it then.

Zachariah · Oct 12, 2018

Manc Skipper said:
"Settlers surrounded by murderous savages in the wilderness" That's a bizarre rehash of events. Project much?

What's 'bizarre' about it? Take it up with Jewish and American historians if you disagree; it isn't something debatable. The American had a lot of sympathy for Jewish people of Europe after the war, and that was one of the main reasons stated. See the book 'Safe Haven for sources.

Zachariah · Oct 12, 2018

Verax said:
I believe the USSR beat back Germany without any help from the U.S. by the time the tide turned in Stalingrad. With Hitler's penchant for making blunderous military decisions and the USSR's unlimited manpower, I think Germany would have ended up in a different bad position eventually.

It would have been impossible for the Soviets to stay in the war without LL; they would have even lost Moscow without early and timely aid from Britain; their winter counter-offensives kept the German out of Moscow, which they couldn't have launched without the 125 British tanks and other supplies arriving at Moscow barely in time. Alexander Hill's article in Journal of Slavic Military Studies, 2009.

Did Russia Really Go It Alone? How Lend-Lease Helped the Soviets Defeat the Germans | HistoryNet

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13518040903355794?journalCode=fslv20

calamity · Oct 12, 2018

Tom Horn said:
Speak English. You can’t hate Juden, Japs and Chinese, and adore Nungs, Karen and Hmong.

No. The America First bunch just loved Hitler and his Jew hating Nazis, who also hated Communists. Everyone blamed the Jews for communism. Most of them hated the Japanese just fine, including Charles.

Tom Horn · Oct 12, 2018

Jew hating nazis....... you mean like Oscar Schindler?

PoS · Oct 13, 2018

1. Would Germany have won the war if not for US intervention?

The US didnt intervene, Germany declared war on us. Secondly, even if America didnt get involved, the Germans sealed their fate when they attacked the USSR- the Russians had endless hordes of soldiers and tanks, and they would have won eventually.

Tom Horn · Oct 13, 2018

PoS said:
The US didnt intervene, Germany declared war on us. Secondly, even if America didnt get involved, the Germans sealed their fate when they attacked the USSR- the Russians had endless hordes of soldiers and tanks, and they would have won eventually.

The us did not intervene..............we will do it this way. I will list an for instance when we did. Then you do an instance where they did not. USS Panay

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