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Holocaust denial, downplaying the Nazis' murder of Jews to be outlawed in Canada

aociswundumho said:
True, but one party is constantly trying to shut people up over what they say.
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I assume you mean democrats, but dont confuse silly stuff on campus with the party. And look at the attacks on Judge Jackson.
 
Carjosse said:
From CP24:


The provision would make it a criminal act to publicly deny or minimize the Holocaust and the killing of Jews by the Nazis. The wording being used is taken from a bill originally proposed by a Conservative MP, which is still being debated in parliament so it will pass one way or another, just a matter of what passes first, cannot imagine the standalone bill facing much opposition. Since it is also part of the larger budget bill it will pass that way for certain.

Personally I think it is a great idea, join other countries in fighting Holocaust denial.
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As a Jew and one whose family were utterly decimated in the camps, I find this law deeply unnerving. I think the balance between little to no censorship from government and censorship in the private realm to be an acceptable compromise. Of course I factor utterly repulsive beliefs like naziism and holocaust denial into my position.

I’m fine with government regulating speech that constitutes a clear and present danger, but holocaust denial, while twisted and perverse, is an opinion, and I’m not okay with government dictating which opinions are allowed to be voiced.

And yes, I’m 100% aware that there are those who will use my position against me; who will demand free speech for themselves today only to turn around and deny it to me tomorrow.
 
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TheParser said:
Yes, that kind of public comment should be illegal.

The punishment should be a fine, no jail time.

The Holocaust was so horrible (and unbelievable) that no one has the right to publicly deny it happened.

I understand that in France, it is already illegal to deny certain historical events. (One scholar some years back was fined for denying that the treatment of Armenians by Turkey during World War I was a genocide.)
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In Germany also, among several other European nations...
www.yadvashem.org

Holocaust Legislation Criminalizing Denial and Promotion of Nazism

I. Introduction As a result of the enormous suffering inflicted upon the world by the Nazi regime, and especially Europe, a number of European countries have enacted laws criminalizing both the denial of the Holocaust and the promotion of Nazi ideology.The aim of these laws is to prevent the...
www.yadvashem.org www.yadvashem.org
Freedom of expression is what led to the rise of fascist Germany. We would prefer it wasn't repeated, and with free speech comes a certain degree of responsibility; and in the US that right is not absolute.
 
Crovax said:
Then you can label anyone you don't like or disagree with as "intolerant"
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Only if your society was already motivated to be this intolerant, at which point you're already nazis anyway so that was inevitable.

In reality, people in societies like ours don't jump over every random disagreement or dislike and demand jail time. Do you?
 
Deuce said:
Only if your society was already motivated to be this intolerant, at which point you're already nazis anyway so that was inevitable.

In reality, people in societies like ours don't jump over every random disagreement or dislike and demand jail time. Do you?
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If DP is any indication, they certainly would
 
Cardinal said:
As a Jew and one whose family were utterly decimated in the camps, I find this law deeply unnerving. I think the balance between little to no censorship from government and censorship in the private realm to be an acceptable compromise. Of course I factor utterly repulsive beliefs like naziism and holocaust denial into my position.

I’m fine with government regulating speech that constitutes a clear and present danger, but holocaust denial, while twisted and perverse, is an opinion, and I’m not okay with government dictating which opinions are allowed to be voiced.

And yes, I’m 100% aware that there are those who will use my position against me; who will demand free speech for themselves today only to turn around and deny it to me tomorrow.
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Your position is perfectly reasonable.
 
Crovax said:
If DP is any indication, they certainly would
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No, that's an absurd extrapolation. People here disagree plenty, virtually nobody is suggesting you be arrested over it. Furthermore, the internet is not real life. A forum like this draws the more politically driven by nature. We are not representative of society, at all.

Maybe disconnect some of those propaganda sources in your life so you stop getting exposed to this lie.
 
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Deuce said:
No, that's an absurd extrapolation. People here disagree plenty, virtually nobody is suggesting you be arrested over it. Furthermore, the internet is not real life. A forum like this draws the more politically driven by nature. We are not representative of society, at all.

Maybe disconnect some of those propaganda sources in your life so you stop getting exposed to this lie.
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You are out of touch with reality

today.yougov.com

Half of Democrats support a ban on hate speech | YouGov

Most Americans support expanded federal hate crime laws, and most Democrats support banning hate speech
today.yougov.com today.yougov.com
 
Crovax said:
Then you can label anyone you don't like or disagree with as "intolerant"
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That’s the point, it’s a way to justify the hypocrisy of only being tolerant of like opinions.


Canada a place where racist behavior like holocaust denial can land you in trouble with the law and racist behavior like blackface can get rewarded with becoming PM.
 
AmNat said:
Hearing about how pozzed "conservatives" in other western countries are makes me appreciate the GOP more. They aren't worth much but at least they support free speech most of the time.
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Indeed, the "alternative fact" that the Nazis were NOT running murder camps deserves the widest possible dissemination to counter the "fake news" that they were killing people because of the fact that the people were Jews (or Socialists [or Romani {or Poles <or ... >}]) because evrewunknoz that it never happened.
 
Grim17 said:
The law is a bad idea.

If you prevent people from expressing hatred and bad ideas, it doesn't make them magically go away.
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True, but you sure do make it difficult for them to spread them to the ignoranti.
Grim17 said:
If people don't express such things you don't know who they are, so you can't protect yourself from them or change their minds. This law just forces people with those beliefs underground where those beliefs go unchallenged, and they can fester and become dangerous.

.
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Or, possibly, wither due to lack of any ability to spread them.
 
Crovax said:
Actually they do and that's why the US has free speech and no other country does
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Really? What about

Freedom of expression in 165 countries​

The Global State of Democracy Indices is a database, maintained by the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance, which tracks 116 indicators related to democratic freedom in 165 countries. The GSDI includes eight indicators centered around free expression, including whether the government censors the media, whether the expression of one's personal culture is repressed, and whether both men and women feel comfortable expressing themselves in public. These metrics are then combined into a single value ranging from a low of 0.00 to a high of 1.00. The top 30 scores from 2020 make up the list below, and the full score sheet appears in the table further down this page.

Top 30 Countries with the Most Freedom of Speech/Expression (GSDI 2020):​

  1. Denmark — .95
  2. Belgium — .87
  3. Finland, Switzerland, Uruguay — .86
  4. New Zealand, Portugal, Sweden — .85
  5. France — .84
  6. Canada, Estonia — .83
  7. Argentina, Austria, Ireland, Norway — .82
  8. Italy — .80
  9. Australia, Germany, Jamaica, United Kingdom — .79
  10. Czechia, Iceland — .78
  11. Latvia, Netherlands, Slovakia — .77
  12. Costa Rica, Barbados — .75
  13. Luxembourg, Peru, United States — .74
[SOURCE]
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Or is it impolite to mention reality?
 
Wow, this really scares the shit out of me. The idea that the state is now going into people's heads and saying that some ideas are illegal is VERY scary. A slippery slope indeed. This isn't just about free speech, it is about free thought.
 
Taylor said:
View attachment 67385094
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You might not have noticed it, but it isn't 2014 (when the data for your chart was assembled) any longer.

I gave you the data that was collected in 2020.

PS - Did you know that if you looked at a map from 1700 you wouldn't find any such country as the United States of America. Would you like me to produce a map from 1700 to "prove" that the United States of America doesn't exist or would you prefer that I used data that was actually current?
 
gino said:
Wow, this really scares the shit out of me. The idea that the state is now going into people's heads and saying that some ideas are illegal is VERY scary. A slippery slope indeed. This isn't just about free speech, it is about free thought.
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The slope to the holocaust is scarier.
 
Deuce said:
The slope to the holocaust is scarier.
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Nope, not even a little bit. Now, I'm not at all a Holocaust denier, and nothing I'm saying is meant to downplay what happened during the holocaust. HOWEVER, this is thought control. The reason for free speech is to ensure that we have freedom to think what we like. Freedom isn't you and I agreeing. Freedom is me saying something you hate, but you allow it to be said anyway. This is the slipperiest of slopes...
 
gino said:
Wow, this really scares the shit out of me. The idea that the state is now going into people's heads and saying that some ideas are illegal is VERY scary. A slippery slope indeed. This isn't just about free speech, it is about free thought.
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It only bans the statements in public, you are free to think or say in private whatever horrible things you want.
 
gino said:
Nope, not even a little bit. Now, I'm not at all a Holocaust denier, and nothing I'm saying is meant to downplay what happened during the holocaust. HOWEVER, this is thought control. The reason for free speech is to ensure that we have freedom to think what we like. Freedom isn't you and I agreeing. Freedom is me saying something you hate, but you allow it to be said anyway. This is the slipperiest of slopes...
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No, it isn't. The slope to the holocaust is worse. It surprises me that people don't see it. The slope goes the other direction.

We have historical examples. We've seen it before. It doesn't happen overnight. The Paradox of Tolerance, as they call it. Germany tolerated these people. Germany gave them the freedom to keep saying what they were saying. They even tolerated a coup attempt. Hitler failed the first time. In the name of healing and tolerance and coming back together as a country, they released him from prison. The nazis spread, they grew, they gained power, and by the time the masses see something like the holocaust coming it was way too late to stop it.

If you tolerate someone expressing the idea that you don't have a right to live, eventually they act on that thought. The result is not a tolerant society, the result is one of the most intolerant societies in all of human history.

"If you don't tolerate people bent on genocide, soon you wont be tolerating any disagreement" is backwards. If you tolerate people bent on genocide, soon they wont be tolerating your existence.
 
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