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Holder speaks out against 'Stand Your Ground' laws after Zimmerman verdict

ThePlayDrive

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From the LA Times:

Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr., speaking about the George Zimmerman acquittal at the NAACP annual convention in Orlando, Fla., urged that laws like Florida’s “stand your ground” statute allowing people to use licensed firearms when they feel threatened should be invoked only after the person first tries to retreat from a dangerous situation.

“It’s time to question laws that senselessly expand the concept of self-defense and sow dangerous conflict in our neighborhoods,” Holder said. “These laws try to fix something that was never broken.”

[More at the source: Atty. Gen. Eric Holder slams 'stand your ground' laws - latimes.com]

It has begun.

What do you think?
 

Hicup

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I think Holder like all crazy libs is a gun hating moron, except the gun his security detail carries of course. ;)


Tim-
 

Josie

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I think this thread is gonna be moved.
 

Thrilla

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From the LA Times:



It has begun.

What do you think?

requiring one to have the duty to retreat is horribly unjust...and I see no logic in constraining or punishing the victim of violent crime.

Holder should be concerned with folks perpetuating violence rather than being concerned with those defending themselves from the violence.
 

ChezC3

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From the LA Times:



It has begun.

What do you think?

From the article

He said, “We must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age-old requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat, outside their home, if they can do so safely.” Otherwise, he said, “by allowing and perhaps encouraging violent situations to escalate in public, such laws undermine public safety. The list of resulting tragedies is long and, unfortunately, has victimized too many who are innocent.

Is he out of his mind?

what he is saying is tuck tail and run, take it in the rear, runaway and allow those who bring violence to your doorstep to know that they can push the envelop to the extreme because your first reaction is going to be FLIGHT not FIGHT. He's saying allow the predators to stay predators and for you to always be the prey...

I'll have none of it.
 

Thrilla

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I'll believe Holder in being sincere in his position when he calls on law enforcement to have a duty to retreat from violent criminals...
 

ThePlayDrive

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Holder should be concerned with folks perpetuating violence rather than being concerned with those defending themselves from the violence.
Well, his claim seems to be that many of those who claim to be defending themselves from violence are actually perpetuating violence. So, to him, he is concerned with those people.
 

ThePlayDrive

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I'll believe Holder in being sincere in his position when he calls on law enforcement to have a duty to retreat from violent criminals...
The premise of his position is that regular citizens (i.e. not law enforcement) have too much authority to use violence so this test of sincerity doesn't make sense.
 

tech30528

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I'm thinking the time will come where people will stand their ground and defend themselves against people like Holder who would degrade all of us to victim status. I place no faith in those who push for disarming the honest while they themselves are guarded by armed mercenaries. Diane Fienstien stood on the Senate floor with an "assault rifle", with the muzzle pointed in an arbitrary direction and her finger on the trigger and a carry permit in her pocket. These people are among the last I would trust to ensure my safety. Eric Holder headed an operation that trafficked arms across the border with no accountability, Obama used drones without Congressional consent. Hell, even Cheney managed to shoot his friend. Governor Perry has randomly fired his pistol in to the air at public gatherings. If I am looking for someone to make policy on public safety, I expect their actions to speak for them first.
 

tech30528

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Thrilla said:
I'll believe Holder in being sincere in his position when he calls on law enforcement to have a duty to retreat from violent criminals...

That's a great point. Here in Georgia (and in other states I'm sure) police are not allowed to engage in high speed pursuits. Police "snipers" will rarely engage at distances over 100 yards. I agree with both of these premises. The risk to innocents is too great. I've shot with enough law enforcement officers to know they are no better, and by and large not up to par, with many of us mere civilians.
 

Thrilla

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The premise of his position is that regular citizens (i.e. not law enforcement) have too much authority to use violence so this test of sincerity doesn't make sense.
..yes, i understand what his premise is and why he would exclude law enforcement

law enforcement officers lives are simply more important than ordinary folks.. so they should be left to be able to defend themselves and ordinary folks should have their choices constrained by law.
 

ThePlayDrive

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law enforcement officers lives are simply more important than ordinary folks.. so they should be left to be able to defend themselves and ordinary folks should have their choices constrained by law.
No, the premise isn't that LEO lives are "more important". It is that LEOs are more trained than the average citizen to use force appropriately.
 

Thrilla

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Well, his claim seems to be that many of those who claim to be defending themselves from violence are actually perpetuating violence. So, to him, he is concerned with those people.

if they are perpetuating violence, SYG would not come into play ..
SYG concerns self defense, not being the assailant.

Holder should know this..
 

Fishstyx

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It means never let a crisis and an angry ignorant mass go to waste. Especially considering the Stand Your Ground law has absolutely nothing to do with the Zimmerman case.
 

j-mac

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No, the premise isn't that LEO lives are "more important". It is that LEOs are more trained than the average citizen to use force appropriately.

However, even a LEO will tell you that in that crucial time when you might need immediate force, they might not be there...So I guess you're saying that's too bad.
 

ThePlayDrive

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if they are perpetuating violence, SYG would not come into play ..
SYG concerns self defense, not being the assailant.

Holder should know this..
Holder does know this. He's arguing that Stand Your Ground allows assailants to claim victimhood and self-defense when neither applies to them.
 

ThePlayDrive

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However, even a LEO will tell you that in that crucial time when you might need immediate force, they might not be there...So I guess you're saying that's too bad.
If you need immediate force, then regular self-defense laws would still apply.
 

Thrilla

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No, the premise isn't that LEO lives are "more important". It is that LEOs are more trained than the average citizen to use force appropriately.

ahh, so he's assuming us regular folks can't handle our ****, therefore, they should be made to run away.

I have a novel idea.. how about letting folks choose the course of action they are comfortable with?... some will most assuredly run away, some will most assuredly provide an active defense... but most importantly, the choice will be left with the person that is actually involved in the situation, rather than some dimwitted politicians trying to decide their course of action for them .

god forbid Holder ever fins himself in a situation where he has ot defend himself... well, after he is out of office and no longer has armed guards doing it or him... I think he would like to have a choice in the matter like anyone else would.
 

ThePlayDrive

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ahh, so he's assuming us regular folks can't handle our ****, therefore, they should be made to run away.

I have a novel idea.. how about letting folks choose the course of action they are comfortable with?... some will most assuredly run away, some will most assuredly provide an active defense... but most importantly, the choice will be left with the person that is actually involved in the situation, rather than some dimwitted politicians trying to decide their course of action for them .

god forbid Holder ever fins himself in a situation where he has ot defend himself... well, after he is out of office and no longer has armed guards doing it or him... I think he would like to have a choice in the matter like anyone else would.
Well, he is not arguing that the self-defense laws, in general, should be taken away. He is arguing that Stand Your Ground laws ought to be reexamined and perhaps done away with. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to characterize his arguments as taking the self-defense option away from people. You would still have the option to defend yourself if it was necessary.
 

j-mac

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If you need immediate force, then regular self-defense laws would still apply.

We see how the self defense laws are going so well that a jury acquits, and what happens? The original instigators of the race baiting, whom said that they wanted him arrested, and charged, all of the sudden don't like the verdict, so the pressure is on for Holder to trump something up, and get him...It is sick.
 

Thrilla

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Holder does know this. He's arguing that Stand Your Ground allows assailants to claim victimhood and self-defense when neither applies to them.



as i'm sure any LEO would attest to, Self defense is probably claimed by many folks..... who are now in prison after it comes out they were not , in fact, defending themselves.
LEO still investigates these killings to determine claims such as self defense... SYG laws don't negate those investigations.

SYG laws don't effect such things... self defense laws are still in place.
 

Lutherf

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I think that laws restricting one from exercising reasonable self defense are asinine. Every situation is different and sometimes retreating is the absolute LAST thing you should do. Just to give a hypothetical - you're in a bar and a group of four people are giving you a hard time. Three of those people head out the front door but the third keeps on verbally harassing and threatening you. Is it really a good idea to leave the bar?
 

ThePlayDrive

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as i'm sure any LEO would attest to, Self defense is probably claimed by many folks..... who are now in prison after it comes out they were not , in fact, defending themselves.
LEO still investigates these killings to determine claims such as self defense... SYG laws don't negate those investigations.

SYG laws don't effect such things... self defense laws are still in place.
Sure and Holder believes that Stand Your Ground facilitates false claims of self-defense. He wants to prevent people from shooting innocent people and then falsely claiming self-defense. He doesn't want to wait until after people are already dead.
 

ThePlayDrive

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I think that laws restricting one from exercising reasonable self defense are asinine.
It seems that Holder agrees. He just doesn't think that Stand Your Ground is reasonable.
 

ThePlayDrive

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We see how the self defense laws are going so well that a jury acquits, and what happens? The original instigators of the race baiting, whom said that they wanted him arrested, and charged, all of the sudden don't like the verdict, so the pressure is on for Holder to trump something up, and get him...It is sick.
Which has no effect on the fact that regular self-defense laws would still apply.
 
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