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Hitler: What if...?

Die was largely cast by then.

I don't see the Russians stopping to negotiate at that point, but maybe the western allies would, so possibly that means Germany ends up completely Soviet?
 

Some historians speculate that there were as many as 40+ attempts to kill Hitler beginning as early as the 1920's. Early in WW2, Germany's High Command requested British aid in assassinating, deposing or arresting Hitler & ending the war earlier but the British refused to co operate & multiple attempts failed.

Additionally:

"Britain’s Plan to Kill Hitler..."
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/fea...ll-hitler.html
EXCERPT "In 1944, the British hatched a plan to assassinate Hitler – a project known as Operation Foxley. It could have shortened the war, saved millions of lives, and spared everyone so much pain and suffering. The scheme had the approval of many in the British government, including Winston Churchill, but it was rejected because Hitler was helping the Allied cause." CONTINUED
 
radcen said:
If the July 20, 1944, assassination attempt on Adolf Hitler had succeeded, how do you think events might have played out afterward?

Leaving it wide open to start.
Click to expand...

What people fail to remember is that Germany was actually fighting two separate wars, one with the Allies and the other against the Soviets who were co-combatants but NOT actually "allied."

IMO had the assassination (July 20, 1944) worked, then the replacement government would have allowed the allies to rush in unopposed to occupy as much of Germany as they could while German troops would be fully committed to continue fighting the Russians in a holding action. At that time the Russians were still being held far to the east, until the Vistula-Oder offensive starting January 1945 and not getting to Berlin until April 1945.

Chances are that the national boundary lines would have been significantly different, with democratic "West" Germany having more of the original territory than was decided at the end of the war current timeline.
 
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Although we like to romanticize the man as a noble fighter for the rights of the German people, by all counts Von Stauffenberg had no real desire to replace the militarist, totalitarian aspects of the Nazi Regime. Many of Germany's senior generals, even if they didn't personally like Hitler, agreed with his militarist and nationalist rhetoric. Even with Hitler gone at this point, Nazi Germany is still deeply entrenched in a war that has already surpassed the point of total war.

In the end though, it all comes down to Goering. The incredibly eccentric, erratic head of the Luftwaffe was Hitler's designated successor, and it's unlikely any of Germany's other senior leadership would have, initially at least, prevented him from assuming power. What happens after that is really not known. Goering, especially as late as 1944, was not a particular stable or consistent man.
 

Nope:

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008294

The plan was to arrest all the major Nazi players, set up a new government, and negotiate the most favorable peace possible with the West.
 

Sue for peace with the West, then try to hold back the Russians. No way they surrender in the East and voluntarily allow their Death Camps to be exposed.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Nope:

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008294

The plan was to arrest all the major Nazi players, set up a new government, and negotiate the most favorable peace possible with the West.
Click to expand...

Except arresting as executing all of the Nazi Party's senior leadership was beyond what Valkyrie was capable of achieving. For all their bluster, the conspirators were grossly incompetent, and it's very unlikely they would've been able to seize power even had Hitler been killed.
 

RE:
What people fail to remember is that Germany was actually fighting two separate wars, one with the Allies and the other against the Soviets who were co-combatants but NOT actually "allied."
Click to expand...
In addition to fighting 2 separate wars, Germany was fighting on 3 different Fronts: N. Africa/Italy, the West & the East. The German High Command considered their alliance with Italy more of a hinderance than an asset.

RE:
IMO had the assassination (July 20, 1944) worked, then the replacement government would have allowed the allies to rush in unopposed to occupy as much of Germany as they could
Click to expand...

As I noted in a separate thread, as early as May, 1941, Hitler was eager to make peace with his British "cousins" and withdraw from recently conquered territories in the North. West, & south for a wohlwollende Neutralität “well wishing neutrality”, between Britain and Germany and a free hand to fight the Soviets in the East.(1)

Hitler was so fond of the British that in sparing them at Dunkirk he said:
""The blood of every single Englishman is too valuable to shed," Hitler said. "Our two people belong together racially and traditionally. That is and always has been my aim, even if our generals can't grasp it." (Kilzer, p.213)*
Therefore, Churchill could have made extensive demands for almost anything In addition to what Hitler was already offering.

Still another historian asserts that Germany's attack on the USSR was pre-emptive as Stalin had amassed the "... most powerful military force in the world — actually the world’s first superpower — for his planned conquest of Europe."(2)

Regrettably, Churchill was more interested in luring America more deeply into WW2, preserving the British Empire, destroying Germany & sacrificing millions of lives than either making Peace via the Hitler-Hess Peace proposal or aiding the German High Command in assassinating Hitler (Operation Foxley). It was crucial that Hitler be killed because that would release rank & file German officers from the oath they swore to him.



(1) "Hess, Hitler & Churchill"
https://www.amazon.com/Hess-Hitler-Churchill-Turning-History/dp/184831602X
EXCERPT "Peter Padfield presents striking new evidence that demands the wholesale reappraisal of the episode. For, allied to a powerful argument that Hess must have had both Hitler's backing and considerable encouragement from Britain, Padfield demonstrates that he also brought with him a draft peace treaty committing Hitler to the evacuation of occupied European countries. Made public, this would have destroyed Churchill's campaign to bring the United States into the war."CONTINUED



(2) "Exposing Stalin’s Plan to Conquer Europe:…"
https://www.counter-currents.com/201...onquer-europe/
https://www.counter-currents.com/2011/04/exposing-stalins-plan-to-conquer-europe/
EXCERPT "In Icebreaker, Suvorov details the deployment of Soviet forces in June 1941, describing just how Stalin amassed vast numbers of troops and stores of weapons along the European frontier, not to defend the Soviet homeland but in preparation for a westward attack and decisive battles on enemy territory.
Thus, when German forces struck, the bulk of Red ground and air forces were concentrated along the Soviet western borders facing contiguous European countries, especially the German Reich and Romania, in final readiness for an assault on Europe.
In his second book on the origins of the war, “M Day” (for “Mobilization Day”), Suvorov details how, between late 1939 and the summer of 1941, Stalin methodically and systematically built up the best armed, most powerful military force in the world — actually the world’s first superpower — for his planned conquest of Europe. Suvorov explains how Stalin’s drastic conversion of the country’s economy for war actually made war inevitable.
Stalin instead wanted the Soviet regime to take advantage of occasional “armistices” in the global struggle to consolidate Red military strength for the right moment when larger and better armed Soviet forces would strike into central and western Europe, adding new Soviet republics as this overwhelming force rolled across the continent."CONTINUED
 
Germany would have switched sides and a swift and decisive end of the war would be brought down upon Tojo with a hellfury and hellfire the world has never seen. Unfortunately, it was not to be.


Citation needed, particularly with regard to the underlined portion.
 
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I doubt it would have changed the outcome of the war. The Russians were already rolling west and would probably only accept unconditional surrender followed by occupation. I believe the western allies had the same conviction, and the coup plotters weren't willing to accede to that. By 1944, it was much too late to change the outcome. If they had done it earlier it might have made a difference.
 

Yep. The Germans were already in the deep end by then. No one was going to throw them a life preserver, Hitler dead or not.
 

The following source cites 26 attempts to assassinate Hitler as early as 1933 (1)

Meanwhile, " German generals were ready to topple the Fuhrer in 1939 and 1940, but only if Britain agreed not to take advantage of a civil war that would follow. England did not agree"(2)

Additionally there was the British "Operation Foxley" I cited on the previous page. As of 1944, Hitler had become so deeply addicted to several types of drugs(3) that the British considered him an asset to their agenda which was to destroy Germany, not kill Hitler, make peace & save millions of lives.






(1) "List of assassination attempts on Adolf Hitler"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler

(2) "Churchill's Deception"
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1839087.Churchill_s_Deception
EXCERPTS "Churchill's Deception describes how Great Britain shunned opportunities to end the war because it sought to dismember Germany, not merely to destroy Hitler.
German generals were ready to topple the Fuhrer in 1939 and 1940, but only if Britain agreed not to take advantage of a civil war that would follow.
England did not agree. And because of Hitler's own obsession about obtaining a pact with Great Britain, he offered to return his Western conquests in exchange for guarantees concerning Germany's interests in the East.
Though Churchill held out for more, he took note of Hitler's obsessive desire for peace with England.
They invited the Deputy Fuhrer of Germany, Rudolf Hess, to attend a peace conference at which Hitler would negotiate the coming invasion of the Soviet Union with the British "Peace Party."
Had the British adopted an anti-Hitler, instead of an anti-Germany, foreign policy, the history of the twentieth century could have been dramatically altered. Kilzer raises the significant question: Would another policy have avoided the Holocaust?"CONTINUED


(3) "High Hitler: How drugs fuelled the Nazi war machine"
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/...-drugs-fuelled-the-nazi-war-machine-1.2859461

EXCERPT "Soon Hitler was perpetually wired on a bewildering array of uppers and downers – including cocaine, the drug denounced by Nazi ideology as a Jewish vice. Morell struggled to find an intact vein to hit in the addict Führer’s track-marked arms. Hitler developed a bad case of the shakes.
There, rattled by years of drug use and the probable onset of withdrawal, Hitler hit nihilistic rock bottom by ordering the total destruction of Germany; when he shot himself in the head it was with a hand that shook so badly he feared for his ability to hit the target.
 
Abbazorkzog said:
Citation needed, particularly with regard to the underlined portion.
Click to expand...


The Conspirators, despite the intensity and desperation of their situation, were rather lethargic and painstakingly slow to act. They wasted hours waiting to hear from Staffenburg, making no significant moves in the meantime. They had no plans to arrest Nazi senior leadership, including Goering, Himmler, or Goebbels. There was no attempt to capture the Wolf's Lair, or seize control of the OKH or the OKW. von Witzleben, supposed to be the future head of State in a post-Hitler Germany, didn't even show up until after it was clear the plot had failed. Fellgiebel, who was in charge of the communications black out, couldn't even cut Hitler's personal lines, allowing Hitler to crush the coup.

Even if they had killed Hitler, the conspirators had done nothing to actually inhibit the Nazi apparatus of succession, so after the initial confusion there was nothing actually in place to stop Goering and the Nazis from re-asserting control.
 
Soopairik said:
Less people would've died.
Click to expand...

Far fewer people would have died if Churchill had chosen to accept the peace proposal that Hitler sent via Rudolf Hess in May of 1941(1), (2)
The proposal was that Germany would withdraw from all recently conquered territory in exchange for a "well wishing neutrality" with the West and be free to fight the Soviets who were already poised to attack Germany & the rest of Europe.(3)

Additionally, the British already had a plan to assassinate Hitler in 1944: "Operation Foxley"


(1)"Document Suggests Hitler Knew of Hess' British Flight Plans"
Historian Uncovers New Account: Document Suggests Hitler Knew of Hess' British Flight Plans - SPIEGEL ONLINE
EXCERPT "But now a previously unpublished document is casting Hess's notorious one-way trip in a new light: A 28-page, handwritten report that historian Matthias Uhl of the German Historical Institute Moscow discovered in the State Archive of the Russian Federation.
But his air mission was a failure from the start. When he heard about the unexpected visitor from Germany, then-British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, who at the time was giving a dinner party at his weekend house near Oxford, was not even willing to postpone a planned film screening, saying: "Well, Hess or no Hess, I'm going to see the Marx Brothers." Why make peace with an aggressor who was determined to subjugate Europe? Hess was taken into custody."CONTINUED



(2) "Nazis ‘offered to leave western Europe in exchange for free hand to attack USSR"
History news | History Extra
EXCERPT ""A new book claims to have solved the riddle of the flight to Britain in 1941 of Rudolph Hess, Adolf Hitler’s deputy. Historian Peter Padfield has uncovered evidence he says shows Hess, the deputy Fuhrer, brought with him from Hitler a detailed peace treaty, under which the Nazis would withdraw from western Europe in exchange for British neutrality over the imminent attack on Russia. The episode remains, more than 70 years on, shrouded in mystery."CONTINUED


(3) "Exposing Stalin’s Plan to Conquer Europe:…"
https://www.counter-currents.com/201...onquer-europe/
EXCERPT "Stalin methodically and systematically built up the best armed, most powerful military force in the world — actually the world’s first superpower — for his planned conquest of Europe. Suvorov explains how Stalin’s drastic conversion of the country’s economy for war actually made war inevitable.
Stalin instead wanted the Soviet regime to take advantage of occasional “armistices” in the global struggle to consolidate Red military strength for the right moment when larger and better armed Soviet forces would strike into central and western Europe, adding new Soviet republics as this overwhelming force rolled across the continent."CONTINUED
 

Given the very recent history of the 1938 Munich Agreement, why would the Brits have any reason to trust Hitler on his proposition?
 
radcen said:
Given the very recent history of the 1938 Munich Agreement, why would the Brits have any reason to trust Hitler on his proposition?
Click to expand...

Exactly. Still a lot of anti-German sentiment going on at the time.
 

"Far fewer people" WHERE??????????????

In the occupied territories Hitler and his minions were already slaughtering Jews and other "undesirables" and there is no intelligent reason for thinking this would cease....

And Germany would withdraw from all recently conquered territory? That would immediately sever his lines of communication and supply to his troops... No effing way. You are making NO sense.

And you are not served by spamming revisionist nonsense.... Originally published in the Journal of Historical Review 17, no. 4 (July–August 1998), 30–37. Online source: Suvorov's 'The Last Republic' (Review)
 

Sorry, was not going to happen. That was the fantasy idea of what would happen. Not unlike the Kyūjō incident in Japan at the close of the war. They were so sure that after they had their little coup the majority of the Japanese military would back them and there would be no surrender. However, it did not happen and the leaders of the coup ultimately killed themselves in dishonor.

No, here is the reality for what would have happened.

They could have tried to arrest the senior members. But odds are that would have failed.

Do not forget, Himmler had one of the largest military forces in Germany, in the Waffen SS. He had power over 8 tank divisions, and over 20 other divisions ranging from cavalry and infantry to heavy shock troops.

And Fat Herman? He had control of the 1. Fallschirm-Jäger-Division, elite paratroopers. In addition, he also commanded Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1. Hermann Göring, an equally fanatical division of Airborne Panzer soldiers.

No, they would have had their little coup, which would have likely failed after a day or so, then led to the fantastical blood letting we saw after the coup failed in real life. At that time the Allies were barely off the beaches, and the majority of Germans were still supporting the war and it's leadership. Even if they had taken and executed all of the top leadership, a counter-coup would have resulted equally quickly, with successors who may have been even more fanatical.

Assuming that Himmler was killed in trying to capture him, that would leave the SS in the hands of Karl Hanke. A man that participated in the Panzercorps both in the invasion of Poland, as well as helping to control occupied France. Who left the military in 1941 having received the Iron Cross 2nd Class as well as the Iron Cross 1st Class. Who was then promoted to NAZI Party leader in Silesia, where he so fanatical that he became known as the "Hangman of Breslau" after ordering the execution of over 1,000 Poles who were not sufficiently supportive of the German occupation. Who was so fanatical that he led Breslau in it's famous 82 day siege, holding out even longer than Berlin did, and costing over 30,000 dead and injured.

Yes, that would have been Himmler's replacement. Can anybody see Karl "Hangman of Breslau" Hanke simply complying with the demands of these coup leaders? Nope, I do not see it happening either.
 
The USA and the UK were committed to Germany's unconditional surrender as of the 1/1943 Casablanca conference.

There is zero probability that any new German government could have changed that, because all the Allies sought eradication not only of the Nazis, but also of German and especially Prussian militarism (The state of Prussia was abolished after the war's end). That could not be done without an unconditional surrender and subsequent occupation of Germany.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the USA and the UK were at war with Japan, while the USSR was not. The USA and the UK very badly wanted the USSR to join them against Japan, and that would have been out of the question if they had left the USSR in the lurch against Germany.

Also, a Western peace with Germany might have enabled either Germany of the USSR to eventually become the sole dominant power on continental Europe, a possibility which caused the UK and France to go to war to begin with in 1939.
 
radcen said:
Given the very recent history of the 1938 Munich Agreement, why would the Brits have any reason to trust Hitler on his proposition?
Click to expand...

Sorry to be so late responding to your post, I just noticed it.

The British had far better reason to believe Hitler would follow through on his peace offer of May, 1941 than the Munich because Hitler was desperate to fight just a 1 front war against the Soviets.
He outlined his aversion to a 2 front war in his book, "Mein Kampf" & through German intelligence how formidable the Soviet forces were.
The Soviets were poised on their Westernmost border in an Offensive position complete with hundreds of thousands of Paratroopers in addition to everything else required for an Offensive thrust into Germany, the rest of Europe & then even London
 




Because of your history of lying & slander, you're on my Ignore List on this thread too. See Rule #4, "DBAJ"
 
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