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Hi from the good old Europe :)

bub

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Hello!

I'm a 18 years old Belgian, I attend a "political sciences - trilingual program" at university and I discovered this forum yesterday.

I'll be direct (don't boycott or invade belgium if you don't agree :mrgreen: ): I'd like to understand several things about American people:

> How do you consider Europe? Do you really think that French, German and Belgian people don't like USA because they were against the war in Iraq?

> On some websites and on CNN, I've seen that many of you seem to hate France, clic here for example. Why?

> Haven't you seen Farenheit 9/11? That does not shock you?

...

I'd just like you to show me your point of view. Just debate!
Maybe I should create a new topic for my questions?

Ciao,

Bub
 

Jay R

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Hello bub, welcome to DebatePolitics.:2wave:

As a fellow European let me offer my experience here to answer some your questions.
1. Yes, they do.
2. Because France has always been a good whipping boy.
3. Faranheit 9/11 is not generally considered to be a sound basis for any argument due to Mr. Moore's political agenda.

Stick around, and I hope you enjoy contributing to the site.
 

Calm2Chaos

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bub said:
Hello!

I'm a 18 years old Belgian, I attend a "political sciences - trilingual program" at university and I discovered this forum yesterday.

I'll be direct (don't boycott or invade belgium if you don't agree :mrgreen: ): I'd like to understand several things about American people:

> How do you consider Europe? Do you really think that French, German and Belgian people don't like USA because they were against the war in Iraq?


Pretty much.. Although they didn't not go into Iraq because of there feeling but because of there contracts and loans. I don't know about belgian folks, never really thought of them one way or the other, Germany........ I think they do whatever they want. France.. I think they do whatever is best for them and if they get to bad mouth the US then it's all the better.
bub said:
> On some websites and on CNN, I've seen that many of you seem to hate France, clic here for example. Why?


The french just make it to easy sometimes. :rofl
bub said:
> Haven't you seen Farenheit 9/11? That does not shock you?


This movie is pretty much considered a joke throughout this country. Large portions of this mockumentary were staged or purposely cut to alter what people said. So no the movie doesn't shock me, the fact that some people actually believed it does...
 

bub

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because of there contracts and loans.

You know, we say exactly the same about you!!!

President Bush is said (but it may be wrong) to have declared war against Iraq, not only for the freedom of Iraqi's*, but because of the money he (and his friends) could make there (as it is explained by Moore!) and the influence he could get in this area.

But it is true that many European countries had a good relationship with Saddam. Exactly like the USA, who helped him to fight against Iran in the 80's, and also trained Bin Laden to fight against the russian in afghanistan!

This is simply geopolitic! One day you are allied with a country (iraq, afghanistan) and help it (even if it's lead by a dictator) to fight against an enemy (russia), and the day after, the alliance changes and your former friend becomes your public enemy N° 1! Just for a question of money and power!

Another important principe, as written by Orwell in his book 1984 (my favorite book! a best seller, so many of you must also have read it), is the fact that every leader needs a public enemy or a big event (a war) abroad, to catch the attention of the people outside the country and its problems...Maybe France? Maybe war in Middle East?

Oh I nearly forgot to add this: Orwell also wrote that if a leader wants to gain more power over his own country and get a better control of his citizens, he has to create a feeling of fear like here, so that the citizen accept new measures to protect them...Maybe terrorism?


(*honestly, who cares in the USA about Iraqi's freedom, since most of the Americans didn't even know the name of this country 20 years ago, and are still unable to place it on a world map... if you don't believe me...)



As for the French, we also have a lot of jokes about them, and here too, they sometimes have a strange reputation.

Of course France is selfish, but no more than USA!

And I don't understand why ALL the French are considered like that by many Americans, since many of those French don't always agree with their president, and most of them like the USA! Furthermore, most of the Americans who decided to boycot the French products probably have never spoken to a Frenchman!


Am I wrong? Sincerely, I think I'm not totally wrong, since most of the people I know (my friends, my teachers...) agree with me. BUT I am not a fanatic and if you answer with real arguments I could change my mind!


Voilà, sorry, maybe I wanted to be too fast and my first topic looks like the beginning of a thread, excuse me :2razz: (and thx for answers!)


(and did you know that about half of the "english" words come from French :mrgreen: )

PS: do you know this joke:
"The President George W Bush, who wanted to be more popular among the young people, went to a school and explained his policy and how his government works. Then, some kids were allowed to ask him something, so, the young Bob asked:
- Mr President, I've got 3 questions:
1) How did you succeed in being elected since Al Gore had more votes than you during the 2000 presidental election?
2) Why do you want so much to attack Iraq?
3) Don't you believe that Hiroshima was the biggest terror attack of History?

At this moment, the bell (of the recess) rang and all the children went out.
Back from the pause, 15 minutes later, the young Joey says:
- Mr President, I've got 5 questions:
1) How did you succeed in being elected since Al Gore had more votes than you during the 2000 presidental election?
2) Why do you want so much to attack Iraq?
3) Don't you believe that Hiroshima was the biggest terror attack of History?
4) Why did the bell ring 20 minutes earlier than it usually does?
5) Where is Bob?" :mrgreen:
 
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Captain America

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Welcome to DP! :2wave:

America is diverse with opinions as expanse as our freedoms. I only speak for myself and not the whole of America (We can do that here...:mrgreen: )

How do you consider Europe?

I really don't think about Europe, as a whole, one way or the other. Rather insignificant to me actually. Sorry 'bout that.

Do you really think that French, German and Belgian people don't like USA because they were against the war in Iraq?

Don't really care actually. Again, they are insignificant to me. I think the French are pu$$ies. I think the Germans need better dental care and the chicks should start shaving their armpits... And Belgium? Well, I hear they make a great waffle.

> On some websites and on CNN, I've seen that many of you seem to hate France, clic here for example. Why?
I don't hate France. I just think that people who stand for nothing will fall for anything. Girlie men. It won't be long before their arse is in a crack again and as usual, we'll be there to bail them out....again. :roll:

> Haven't you seen Farenheit 9/11? That does not shock you?

Why should it? It was just made for entertainment and it was just that. Entertaining Nobody here really took it seriously. Did you?:confused:


Again, welcome aboard!

...
 

bub

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OK OK I should have said it with more sense of humor :smile:

(for europe)
Rather insignificant to me actually

You're right it's true, but when I get my diploma and when I am elected president of the United States of Europe, it will change :mrgreen:

(for the countries)
Again, they are insignificant to me

In fact, if you had asked me this question about Iowa or Oregon, I'd have answered the same!

I think the French are pu$$ies. I think the Germans need better dental care and the chicks should start shaving their armpits... And Belgium? Well, I hear they make a great waffle*.
:rofl (hey I didn't know this smiley!)

*and over 600 different kinds of beer!

It won't be long before their arse is in a crack again and as usual, we'll be there to bail them out....again.
If you're independant, it's thanks to them, so...

Entertaining Nobody here really took it seriously. Did you?
Euh, when I think about it, not really, but when I saw it for the first time, yes I did! :3oops:
 

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bub said:
Hello!

I'm a 18 years old Belgian, I attend a "political sciences - trilingual program" at university and I discovered this forum yesterday.

I'll be direct (don't boycott or invade belgium if you don't agree :mrgreen: ): I'd like to understand several things about American people:

> How do you consider Europe? Do you really think that French, German and Belgian people don't like USA because they were against the war in Iraq?

IMO America is a much more homogeneous society than Europe, and Americans in general have much less exposure to different peoples, cultures, and lifestyles than the typical European, in my experience. This tends to give the average American a more myopic view as to other cultures, and frankly, less tolerant.

Plus, being in general a more religious based society, having been successful in two world wars, having the world's strongest economy and military gives many Americans a sense that the American way is the (God chosen) only right way to do things, and everything else is culturally inferior. This is reflected by many in their attitudes towards European nations, and particularly in instances where European countries don't "toe the line" and do exactly what we (America) think is best, since we "know" what is best. And when they do not, many Americans respond by deriding the nation and its culture.

Many Americans also tend to generalize perceived characteristics of a nation and sterotype the peoples of that nations accordingly. That is probably true the other way as well.

Of course, these observations are my own opinions and are broad generalizations.

> On some websites and on CNN, I've seen that many of you seem to hate France, clic here for example. Why?

See above. IMO, the particularly derisive behavior generally comes most strongly from "neocons" -- a conservative, militarily agressive group that tends to believe that the cultural superiority of America can be imposed through military power, if the line is not properly toed. In the case of France particularly, France had the gall to decide at the last minute not to go along with the invasion of Iraq, in part because Bush was such a butt, but mostly because they wanted to let the inspectors continue to verify whether Iraq had the hundreds of tons of chemical weapons and nuclear programs and all the other stuff that we were told made it an "urgent threat" necitating immediate invasion. Bush and the neocons, who had planned to invade Iraq long before March 2003, were not willing to delay; my suspicion is because they knew the intel was increasingly demonstrating that Iraq did not in fact have WMDs and if they waited they would lose the excuse for the preemptive invasion they planned.

Of course, as it turned out France was completely right and the neocons were completely wrong, which has them foaming at the mouth in frustration and anger, which, in their typical way, they exhibit by viciously attacking those who did not agree with their views. They call the French pu$$ies for not agreeing with Iraq, while conveniently ignoring that France sent troops to fight for us in Afganistan right after 9-11.

But hey, France is not given any special treatment in this regard. We Americans who thought the Iraq war has been a mistake all along are frequently referred to as treasonous or traitors by that group.

> Haven't you seen Farenheit 9/11? That does not shock you?

I viewed F9-11 as more as entertainment. The things I have seen and learned that this administration has actually done and is doing shock me far more.

And welcome to Debate Politics -- I'm glad to see Europeans participate, it helps both sides understand that people are not homogenous stereotypes represented by the actions of their government.
 
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Captain America

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Yeah...

What Iriemon said. He's smart that way.

I'm just the class clown here.

Listen to him.

Laugh at me. :rofl

600 beers huh? I'm starting to like Belgium!
 

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Captain America said:
Yeah...

What Iriemon said. He's smart that way.

I'm just the class clown here.

Listen to him.

Laugh at me. :rofl

600 beers huh? I'm starting to like Belgium!

Yeah, a few beers sound good.

And I forgot about the women. French women as a whole don't seem to have yet discovered the nutritional benefits of a Big Mac with supersized fries. That is the other reason Americans are mad at France. :)
 

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bub said:
You're right it's true, but when I get my diploma and when I am elected president of the United States of Europe, it will change :mrgreen:
It's nice to meet someone with ambitions. However, I can give youfour reasons why that's not going to happen.

1. We're not a federal nation, rather a group of cooperating individual states, the presidency is in no way a form of European executive branch. Nothing more than a token figurehead position we pass around. To be a genuinely influential President of a US-rivalling Europe you would need to skip right past constitutional debates to full blown federalism. Ambitious to say the least.

2. It costs huge amounts of money to run general election campaigns (15 million pounds is about average for the UK's three main parties.), even to become the of Belgian head of state you had better have a lot of very rich friends willing to support you.

3. Diploma's are nothing. People aren't going to vote for your good grades, you need manifesto for government that appeals to a broad majority of your electorate (In this case you'll need one that the majority of Europe supports, and we don't have the best record for collective reasoning and agreement ;) ) and the charisma to sell it to them.

4. Well, since were engaging in such a flight of fancy, I'll say it. You'll also have to fight me for that first federal presidency. :smile: So may the best European win.

See you at my inauguration bub :2wave:
 

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bub said:
Hello!

I'm a 18 years old Belgian, I attend a "political sciences - trilingual program" at university and I discovered this forum yesterday.

I'll be direct (don't boycott or invade belgium if you don't agree :mrgreen: ): I'd like to understand several things about American people:

> How do you consider Europe? Do you really think that French, German and Belgian people don't like USA because they were against the war in Iraq?

> On some websites and on CNN, I've seen that many of you seem to hate France, clic here for example. Why?

> Haven't you seen Farenheit 9/11? That does not shock you?

...

I'd just like you to show me your point of view. Just debate!
Maybe I should create a new topic for my questions?

Ciao,

Bub
Floyd Landes is innocent the french just dont like the Yanks winning there race. I love french food garlic snails and eclairs and crepes.and of course Gotta love Belgian and german beer. I never here anyone complain about Belgium or Germany, French a little but everyone I know wants to go to france and 2 girls I know go to school in Paris. My opinion the smart American like Europe and there culture. Not alot of the American people supported the war. I was to guess I dont think a few Americans like the French and a Few French dont like the Yanks. I really think its more about the wine then the war.
 

bub

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@ Iriemon: you may already book a flight to Brussels since I hire you as my new prime minister! I've rarely read something as smart as your post!

French women as a ho'?
:lol:

@ Jay R:
1) It may change! 65 years ago, a world war torn our continent, and a few decades later most of the European countries joined an Union...and the Belgian national motto is Union makes power!

2) I just have to get the winning ticket of "Euromillions"! Last year a guy earned something like € 120 millions!!!

3) Diplomas are nothing, you're right. That's why I'm gonna corrupt all those old guys with my € 120,000,000.00 , and hire spetnaz to get rid of those who don't agree :cool:

4) you'll be the first to which (is it correct?) I send my spetnaz! Look through the window, yes, just behind you...PIOUH! PIOUH!

See you at my inauguration bub
eheheh

@ Puditbeat: I agree!


Oh, excuse me, we don't have 600 kinds of beer, I was wrong...we have 717!:mrgreen: (enjoy!), and according to this, the best one is the "Westvletteren"
 
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punditbeat

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bub said:
Oh, excuse me, we don't have 600 kinds of beer, I was wrong...we have 717!:mrgreen: (enjoy!), and according to this, the best one is the "Westvletteren"
I gotta try Westvletteren
 

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welcbnr.gif


:tink: ~Tashah~
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bub said:
> How do you consider Europe? Do you really think that French, German and Belgian people don't like USA because they were against the war in Iraq?

I think a good handfull of the EU dislike the United States out of competition. I think though, that a lot of important European Politics will be underlooked and passed by if the Europeans focus on the United States of America in the way I think they do. The USA and the EU have a lot of things in common with each other. They have done things they should be Proud of and they have done things that they should be Ashamed of. Both have similar problems that need fixing and both need a change of mentality and both needlessly bicker at each other about unimportant things. I don't think the EU should dislike the USA and I do not think the USA should dislike the EU.

I chose not to be an aficionado of Europe because I find Israel, Thailand, Taiwan, The Phillippines, Korea, China and Singapore far more interesting than Europe and when I get into Europe I find more interest in The Netherlands and Finland. Growing up in a House of German Immigrants I got sick and tired of hearing about Germany.

> On some websites and on CNN, I've seen that many of you seem to hate France, clic here for example. Why?

I myself, pick on France because I think it's funny since the rivalry against France is overplayed. But this does not mean I hate France. Not at all. I quite like their animation, music and movies. I enjoy France on that Entertainment level. I have never spoken to someone from France but if I did I would treat them with the hospitality that I would like from them if I were visiting their Country.

> Haven't you seen Farenheit 9/11? That does not shock you?

Why is Michael Moore such a hot topic in Europe? That shocks me. Focus more on your Own and less on us.

and your former friend becomes your public enemy N° 1! Just for a question of money and power!

Please... these "former friends" were suckers for fighting our enemies for us. Europe should be able to understand this concept very well.

Also..
Want to talk about expanding influence? Talk about Islamic Militants in Israel, Thailand, Bangladesh, India, East China, The Phillippines, Africa and so on. Talk about the Attacks against Australian Embassies, American Embassies, Buildings and Rescue Missions and the attacks in Spain and England. Talk about conflict with Russia and Chechnya. Talk about all of those Muslims that went absolutely bonkers after Europeans decided to express their impression of Islam.


Anyways, Welcome to the Forum, and refrain from needlessly refering to all Americans as Fat, Arrogant, Greedy and Stupid, as I find that most Europeans when given the chance will say that about us and that only spreads the animosity between us. I will also refrain from needlessly refering to all Europeans as anything Negative as I feel and know that there are a lot of independent thinkers in Europe and they all aren't guilty of the usual things people accuse them of.

Besides, Germany and California have got some awesome Chinese Restaurants. And if I did drink, I would drink to that!
 

bub

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Hi!

I find Israel, Thailand, Taiwan, The Phillippines, Korea, China and Singapore far more interesting
You mean historically, culturally, or politicaly?

Oh I've never been to any of those countries above, and no one may say his country is the most interresting in the world, but you astonish me.

I mean, I'd like to visit Asia because I'm interrested in Buddhist culture, and I've learned Japanese during 2 years, but your language (if you're not born in china), your alphabet, your political system, a huge part of the history, of the art, of the music, of the architecture, of philosophy, of the writers, of the geographs, the beginning of most of the sciences...come from Europe, and you say it's "far less interresting" than Philippines?

Have you ever been to Toscany, Delphes or Bruges?



Focus more on your Own and less on us.

So...you'll say I'm anti-american, though I am not. Last year I spent one month in a host family, close to San Francisco (how beautiful!) and, even if politic was a kind of taboo for them, I love them.
I'll just show you a few facts, and as you asked me I'll focus on "me" (even if my government does not especially represent my opinions) too:

What are the problems in Europe, according to me (i'm not a specialist):

Racist political parties: because of (+- massive) immigration,mainly from africa and turkey, racist parties get more and more votes. It depends on the region, but most of the times they get between 5 and 15% of the votes. That's too high. They are called "extreme right" parties...but in fact they are no more conservative than many US neocons!

Immigration? Yes many immigrants do not mix up and stay together. Many of them stay poor, and are jobless or have the less interresting jobs. But those immigrants are helped by the government to get houses and jobs, and force them to go to school. We don't use to throw them back (or build huge useless walls ;) ) but send help and money to the countries from which they come, so that we hope this migration flux will stop.

And on the political lists of candidates (there will be elections here next sunday), you may see that in every party (excepted extreme right) there are some foreigners, many of them from african origines. On average 15 or 20% of the candidates aren't from Belgian origines. That is what we call "multicultural society", and that's a good point.

I'd also add that immigrants that came earlier (50's and 70's), such as the Italian, Spanish and Greeks, mixed up perfectly well and nobody makes distinction between them and "pure" belgians.

Terrorism? The only European countries attacked by muslim terrorists since 2001 are those whose governments agreed with the US neocons to go to war...Spain and UK! In Spain, the separatist movment (ETA) has stopped with violence, and in Northern Ireland, they also seem to quiet down (IRA) for a while.

Healthcare? Among the 25 best countries in the world in healthcare, 21 are European (the whole Europe in fact)

Justice? Never heard about torture by any European government, nor secret jails...death penality is only used in non-democratic countries (such as China, Iran, Viet Nam...and the beeeeep!) and here we apply the bill of Human Rights.

Criminality? 686/100,000 americans are in jail (world record) while only 96/100,000 in France and 59/100,000 in Norway

Pollution? "We" have all signed the Kyoto agreements, "you" did'nt while "you" are the biggest polluters of the world (but Schwarzie has promised to make efforts, it's good!)

Poverty? France = 6%, US = 13%

Army? ...hum...if we spent as much money as you, of course it would also rock! As for education, it's a question of money I think.

Influence over the world? The most influent country of the world has always changed after a +- long time. It used to be Egypt, then Greece, then the Roman Empire, then the Francs with Carolus Magnus in 800, then it has been Carolus Quintus in 1500, Spain, France, England...and then US and URSS after the WWII, and since 1990 it's the US alone. But don't worry, it will change soon! Maybe China?

Please... these "former friends" were suckers for fighting our enemies for us. Europe should be able to understand this concept very well.

What do you mean? So, according to you, US would suck because it has fought against Germany for the benefit of the other European countries??? Have you understood what I meant? Read "1984" and then come back!!!

Want to talk about expanding influence? Talk about Islamic Militants in Israel, Thailand, Bangladesh, India, East China, The Phillippines, Africa and so on. Talk about the Attacks against Australian Embassies, American Embassies, Buildings and Rescue Missions and the attacks in Spain and England. Talk about conflict with Russia and Chechnya. Talk about all of those Muslims that went absolutely bonkers after Europeans decided to express their impression of Islam.

Hey dude, calm down! Don't forget that those events are NOT linked!

In Chechnya they just want to be independent...they dont fight for islam!

In Israel too, they just want to be independent too (thats a problem since its also the land Israeli's want...but you knew it) and aim Israelis citizen to provoke a political/territorial change...nothing to do with islam

In Irak too, they dont fight for islam, they fight to get power over this country (thats why chiites and sunnites also fight themselves), exactly what happens in the countries you have just mentionned. Islam is just a pretext, they just want power.

As for your ambassies, they were (like the WTC) the symbol of the US economical power, that they contest. Thats why they aimed it.

And they use terrorism because they know they can't do anything against NATO-countries' armies. That's their only way to make havoc in rich countries which can afford efficient armies.

Furthermore, the aim of terrorists is to be seen, knowed by a large number of people. And with the medias, its very easy to create a feeling of fear worldwide. But since there are many mediatized attentats, they have to be more and more spectacular, in order to shock many people (their goal) >>> WTC.

And for the reaction of "the muslims" over the cartoons, the medias jsut showed you the reactions of some maniulated guys (= not really representative of the rest of the population) and you believe ALL of them burnt Danish flags and threw stones on EU ambassies...of course i don't agree with ther reaction, but only a few % of the muslims behaved like that, and they are manipulated.


and refrain from needlessly refering to all Americans as Fat, Arrogant, Greedy and Stupid
Have I ever written that? On the contrary, I always try to write "many of..." or "most of..." and never "all of the americans". I've never mentionned the words "fat" "arrogant" "greedy" (dont even knew this word) nor "stupid", so...

they all aren't guilty of the usual things people accuse them of.
That's the point! What are they "accused of"?

Bah...there is a small chinese restaurant close to here:rolleyes:
 
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bub said:
Hi!


You mean historically, culturally, or politicaly?

All

your alphabet, your political system, a huge part of the history, of the art, of the music, of the architecture, of philosophy, of the writers, of the geographs, the beginning of most of the sciences...come from Europe, and you say it's "far less interresting" than Philippines?

Absolutely. There's actually a thred on this forum here where people claim back and forth the Mathematical, Scientific and Architecture backgrounds of European and Asian Countries, and the presence and absense of European influence in those fields.

Have you ever been to Toscany, Delphes or Bruges?

I've only been to Germany and Mexico.

They are called "extreme right" parties...but in fact they are no more conservative than many US neocons!

I find the NeoCons highly non-conservative, only socially conservative, which isn't the conservative I necessarily perscribe to.

I'm not going to respond to any of the European politics and I'll leave the Crime Statistics to another thred.





Influence over the world? The most influent country of the world has always changed after a +- long time. It used to be Egypt, then Greece, then the Roman Empire, then the Francs with Carolus Magnus in 800, then it has been Carolus Quintus in 1500, Spain, France, England...and then US and URSS after the WWII, and since 1990 it's the US alone. But don't worry, it will change soon! Maybe China?

The United States needs long-term competition in order to stay ontop of things. Otherwise, we will be too comfortable with a seemingly exclusive luxury.


What do you mean? So, according to you, US would suck because it has fought against Germany for the benefit of the other European countries??? Have you understood what I meant? Read "1984" and then come back!!!

I don't think you understood what I ment. But that's not important.

I have read 1984 and 1984 doesn't apply and it isn't the best book about how a big government society is like since a lot of the book trails off about Winston's love life. Many elements were missing in 1984. It's like any CyberPunk Post-Armegeddon Movie or Fiction Series. You're mentioning 1984 because of how Countries would be at war with each other to keep the Econemy going.


Hey dude, calm down! Don't forget that those events are NOT linked!
Right, they are apples and oranges, but guess what? Apples and Oranges are still fruits. I am against Militant Islam and all of it's reasonings and consequences. Thailand Insurgency and Militant Attacks in the Philippines aren't linked but it's the same crap.

In Israel too, they just want to be independent too (thats a problem since its also the land Israeli's want...but you knew it) and aim Israelis citizen to provoke a political/territorial change...nothing to do with islam

Yes, Hamas is just a cuddly little activist group secular from Islam isn't it?

In Irak too, they dont fight for islam, they fight to get power over this country (thats why chiites and sunnites also fight themselves), exactly what happens in the countries you have just mentionned. Islam is just a pretext, they just want power.

So the fighting in Iraq has nothing to do thousands of years of inter-religious intolerance? I'll admit that most of these Muslim leaders are just power seekers, but they use religion to incite hatred and to justify murder.

As for your ambassies, they were (like the WTC) the symbol of the US economical power, that they contest. Thats why they aimed it.

Yeah. I don't know what this statement is suppose to mean to me. If it's just fact, then it's just fact, but if it had a point, I hope the point wasn't "and so the US should cower and the nation should under go poverty." which wont help beceause our actions are unforgiveable to these groups and if we were to work towards their desires, we would be weaker in defending ourselves against the threat they will oppose. I can't listen to any more of these Terror TimeLines that blame America or blame Militant Islam to see if we can justify defense against them because the fact is, the opposition to America and Israel say that we can never redeem ourselves.

And they use terrorism because they know they can't do anything against NATO-countries' armies. That's their only way to make havoc in rich countries which can afford efficient armies.

You're absolutely right. Terror as a Proxy Military can also be more efficient and morally segregated from the Countries they Originate. That way, it will be harder to point blame at a Country.

Furthermore, the aim of terrorists is to be seen, knowed by a large number of people. And with the medias, its very easy to create a feeling of fear worldwide. But since there are many mediatized attentats, they have to be more and more spectacular, in order to shock many people (their goal) >>> WTC.

Just as long as Fear doesn't comprimise our Bravery and Unity and willingness to fight the threat.

And for the reaction of "the muslims" over the cartoons, the medias jsut showed you the reactions of some maniulated guys (= not really representative of the rest of the population) and you believe ALL of them burnt Danish flags and threw stones on EU ambassies...of course i don't agree with ther reaction, but only a few % of the muslims behaved like that, and they are manipulated.

Of course not. Give me a little more credit, I hope you aren't as prejudice as your comment was and I don't believe that you are. Because of my defiance to Militant and Radical Islam, that doesn't mean that it's fixed in my head that every Muslim is guilty. Also, just because they behave out of that out of manipulation doesn't mean that they are innocent and we should think twice before we put out a Cartoon. You do NOT do acts of violence when your religion is criticized or made a mockery out of.

Have I ever written that? On the contrary, I always try to write "many of..." or "most of..." and never "all of the americans". I've never mentionned the words "fat" "arrogant" "greedy" (dont even knew this word) nor "stupid", so...

No you haven't ever said that and I didn't accuse you either and I do not think that you would. I just wanted to establish that I'll be kind to you, as long as it's mutual, Since I usually find myself being kind, generous, humble and not dangerously overweight, but then have to hear from others that I am, and the rest of the Country, or "many of" and "most of" are the complete opposite.

That's the point! What are they "accused of"?

I'm not going to dwell on it and have a clash of Stubborn Americans and Stubborn Europeans acusing each other of things. It's all be said and done before. Besides, this thred is about you; and I apologise for going off track a bit on your introduction. Again, I welcome you to this forum. Happy posting bub.
 

bub

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Hello! Thx for your answer!

Right, they are apples and oranges, but guess what? Apples and Oranges are still fruits. I am against Militant Islam and all of it's reasonings and consequences. Thailand Insurgency and Militant Attacks in the Philippines aren't linked but it's the same crap.

And me I'm not only against militant islam but against every kind of violence justified by any religion ;)

And when I said that those events are not linked, that's because those militants do not fight for the reaching of the same goal.

There is no "islamic" global policy, and in fact, there are 2 main "kinds" of Islam (sunniites & chiites), subdivised in 11 different religions (Malékites, Chafiites, Hanafites, Hanbalites, Alaouites, Druzes...)...and while some countries are islamists and apply the chariah (Sudan, Iran, afghanistan and Saudi Arabia), many other are tolerant, and some, like Turkey, are even laïc. So, they are not united at all. Their only common point is that they are muslims.

but they use religion to incite hatred and to justify murder.
Yes they do! But they could also be Christian or Buddhist!

"As for your ambassies, they were (like the WTC) the symbol of the US economical power, that they contest. Thats why they aimed it."


Yeah. I don't know what this statement is suppose to mean to me. If it's just fact, then it's just fact, but if it had a point, I hope the point wasn't "and so the US should cower and the nation should under go poverty." which wont help beceause our actions are unforgiveable to these groups and if we were to work towards their desires, we would be weaker in defending ourselves against the threat they will oppose. I can't listen to any more of these Terror TimeLines that blame America or blame Militant Islam to see if we can justify defense against them because the fact is, the opposition to America and Israel say that we can never redeem ourselves.

Yes, whatever we do, some will always hate us. THEY have to evolue, open their mind and read something else than only one book.

I don't know what is the solution to stop such people, but obviously war does not work, since it gives an excellent pretext to make more and more people hate us.

Education should work, but it takes a lot of time, and to make so many people change their mind is less easy than just use force.

And, permit me to add that even if Democracy is the best kind of government they could have, we can NOT impose it.
THEY have to fight for it, themselve! The French revolution against their "tyrannic" King, to get freedom, has been made by French people, the American revolution against "tyrannic" English has been made by American people. So, why the Iraqi revolution against their own tyran should be done by US soldiers? Iraqi people have to evolute on their own. When they are "modern" enough to be aware that something has to change in their country, they will make their own revolution, like every other country in the world has done before them. "people have the government that they deserve"!

Just as long as Fear doesn't comprimise our Bravery and Unity and willingness to fight the threat.

You may be right, but if the terrorists were ignored by medias, maybe they would look for another way of claiming what they want.
Since their aim is to terrorise people*, living with a constant fear of them would mean they have won.

(* to produce the change they claim)

And if force seem to work against them in short term, that will simply resolve nothing since our violence give them a real pretext to hate us.

Also, just because they behave out of that out of manipulation doesn't mean that they are innocent

You are perfectly right. That just mean they are short minded and should be educated.

and we should not think twice before we put out a Cartoon.

I also agree. Freedom of speech is what characterize democratic countries like ours, and not to publish it would mean they have won.

No you haven't ever said that and I didn't accuse you either and I do not think that you would. I just wanted to establish that I'll be kind to you, as long as it's mutual

Oh excuse me if I've been offensive! I'm not english speaker and sometimes I may not see the nuances you make! OK OK!!! I'll try to be more careful next time!:2razz:
 

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bub said:
Hello!

I'm a 18 years old Belgian, I attend a "political sciences - trilingual program" at university and I discovered this forum yesterday.

Hi I'm a poli-sci/International relations major myself at USF (University of South Florida) welcome to DP.
I'll be direct (don't boycott or invade belgium if you don't agree :mrgreen: ): I'd like to understand several things about American people:


> How do you consider Europe? Do you really think that French, German and Belgian people don't like USA because they were against the war in Iraq?

No I think they don't like the United States because travel warnings tell Americans not to wear American flags on their clothing when they visit Europe.

> On some websites and on CNN, I've seen that many of you seem to hate France, clic here for example. Why?

Because they're back stabbing jihadi appeasing socialists.

> Haven't you seen Farenheit 9/11? That does not shock you?

What shocks me is that people actually take this guy seriously in Europe, even liberals in America try to distance themselves from this blatantly overt propagandist. Fahrenheit 9-11 was so heavily edited and cut to portray a false picture of reality and so chalked full of errors and deciet that if it was a book it would be found in the fiction section.

Check out this four page PDF:

Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 911
by David Kopel
Independence Institute


1. The Gore “victory” rally isn’t celebrating a Florida win. It was held before the polls had even opened.

2. Like all the other networks, Fox mistakenly said that Gore had won in Florida. The first network to retract the Florida mistake was CBS, not Fox.

3. A 6-month study by a consortium of major newspapers shows that Bush would have won the Florida recount under any of the terms which Gore sought in his lawsuits.

4. Investigation by the Palm Beach Post and others shows that race was not a reason why election officials mistakenly
disqualified some voters because they were incorrectly thought to have felony convictions.

5. Bush’s Presidency before 9/11 was not in serious trouble. No commentator said that he looked like a lame-duck president. Congress had passed his #1 bill (the tax cut) and was on the way to passing his #2 bill (the education bill). The scene at the end of the movie in which Bush tells a rich audience
“I call you my base,” was from an October 2000 charity fund-raiser. Both Gore and Bush spoke at the fund-raiser and, as is the custom at the fund-raiser, made fun of themselves.

6. “In his first eight months in office before September 11th, George W. Bush was on vacation, according to the Washington Post, forty-two percent of the time.” As the Washington Post reported, the figure includes weekends, and includes time in “vacation locations” such as Camp David, where Bush was working—as when he met with Tony Blair.

7. In the golf course scene (about the middle of the movie), Bush had just heard about a terrorist attack on Israel. He called the press together to make a quick statement condemning the terrorism against Israel. He was not speaking about attacks on the United States.

8. There is no evidence that Bush did not read the Aug. 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Briefing about al Qaeda.

9. He never claimed that the title’s “vagueness” was an excuse for not reading it.

10. The Briefing did not say “said that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes.” It said that the FBI has “not been able to corroborate” such a threat.

11. The Saudis left the U.S. only after air travel was opened for the general public.

12. According to Richard Clarke and the September 11 Commission, Clarke personally approved the Saudi departures,
and the decision went no higher in the chain of command.

13. Moore lied to a TV reporter in claiming that Fahrenheit discloses Clarke’s decision to the audience. Clarke called the Saudi exit material in Fahrenheit a “mistake” by Moore.

14. Contrary to what Fahrenheit claims, the September 11 Commission found that many Saudis were asked “detailed questions” before being allowed to leave.

15. James Bath did not invest bin Laden family money in Bush’s energy company Arbusto. He invested his own money.

http://www.davekopel.org/terror/59Deceits.pdf

<<<continued below>>>
 
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<<<CONTINUED>>>

16. Bath’s name was blacked-out from an Alabama National Guard record released by the White House—as required by federal law, which prohibits the disclosure of health-related personal information.

17. Prince Bandar has way too much influence on the U.S. government, as Fahrenheit shows, but American coddling of the Saudi tyranny is a long-standing bi-partisan tradition, not a Bush invention.

18. Harken Energy: Bush only sold the stock after company lawyers told him it was OK.

19. The reason that Bush “beat the rap” was because there was no evidence he had engaged in insider trading.

20. The Carlyle Group is not a Bush playground. Many Bush opponents are investors, including George Soros.

21. The Bush administration dealt Carlyle a huge financial blow by canceling the Crusader, one of the few weapons
cancellations in the Bush administration.

22. The bin Ladens dropped out of Carlyle before the stock sale. Of the 1.4 billion that the Saudis invested in companies with Bush connections, the vast majority of the money was invested in Carlyle before George H.W. Bush joined the firm.

23. Craig Unger claims that the Saudis have $860 billion invested in the U.S. The figure appears in his book House of Bush, House of Saud, but neither of Unger’s cited sources support such a large figure.

24. Moore claims that the Saudis “own 7% of America.” But even if you believe Unger’s fictitious $860 billion figure, the Saudis own only about 7% of total foreign investment in America, which is over 10 trillion dollars. Only if all of America were owned by foreigners could Moore’s claim be correct.

25. The Saudi embassy does not receive special protection. It is not the only foreign embassy which is guarded by the U.S. Secret Service. An international treaty signed by the U.S. requires the U.S. to protect any embassy which asks for protection.

26. Moore’s insinuation that Bush runs U.S. foreign policy according to Saudi instructions is contradicted by the Afghanistan invasion (which toppled the Taliban regime which the Saudis strongly supported), and by the Iraq War (which the Saudis opposed, in part because Iraqi oil will compete with Saudi oil).

27. As Governor of Texas, Bush never met with Taliban representatives.

28. The proposed Unocal pipeline was supported by the Clinton administration, but Unocal abandoned the pipeline idea in 1998.

29. The new Afghani government has signed a protocol to build a pipeline, but it is an entirely different pipeline, in a location hundreds of miles distant from the Unocal proposal.

30. Construction has not begun on the new pipeline. Although Moore claims that “Enron stood to benefit” from the pipeline, Enron has never had any participation in either pipeline.

31. The Bush administration did not “welcome” Taliban diplomats n March 2001, but instead condemned them for failing
to hand over Osama bin Laden.

32. Despite Moore’s pose in the movie, he opposed the Afghanistan War, and—in December 2002—claimed that Osama bin Laden might be innocent.

33. In claiming that the Afghanistan invasion was a mere ruse to protect the Saudis, Moore omits the results of liberation
in Afghanistan: destruction of al Qaeda training camps, the creation of free elections, more freedom for women, and the homecoming of 1.5 million refugees from the Taliban.

34. The various quotes about Bush administration cooperation With the September 11 Commission have been re-sequenced to create a false impression. In July 2003, Chairman Kean complained about lack of cooperation. In February 2004, Bush said that the White House had given extraordinary cooperation. Kean agreed, and praised the White House for providing “unprecedented” access.

35. John Ashcroft didn’t really lose a Senate election to a “dead guy.” Mel Carnahan died in a plane crash a few weeks before the election, and the Missouri Governor had promised
to appoint Carnahan’s widow Jean Carnahan if voters pulled the lever for Mel Carnahan.

36. The FBI did not “know” about al Qaeda suspects who were attending flight training schools. The information was never passed above the level of one field office.

37. Ashcroft did not cut overall counter-terrorism funding. He only proposed a one-year cut in a particular program that already had two years of unspent money.

<<<CONTINUED BELOW>>>
 
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<<<continued>>>

38. Rep. Porter Goss says he has an “800 number,” and the Fahrenheit caption says “He’s lying.” Goss does have a toll-free number, although the prefix is 877.

39. Moore say Saddam’s Iraq “had never murdered a single American citizen.” In fact, Saddam paid for terrorist bombers
in Israel who murdered Americans, along with people of other nationalities. Saddam also sheltered the American-kill-ing terrorist Abu Nidal, and the bomb-maker for the 1993 World Trade Center bombings.

40. In addition, Saddam ordered assassination attempts against former President Bush and against U.S. diplomats in the Philippines.

41. Moore claims that the Saddam regime “never threatened to attack the United States.” In fact, in 1997 the regime publicly ordered: “American and British interests, embassies, and naval ships in the Arab region should be the targets of military operations and commando attacks by Arab political forces.” On the first anniversary of September 11, Saddam's regime called for suicide attacks on Americans.

42. Moore claims that there was no connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. In fact, there is an extensive record of collaboration although—as the September 11 Commission announced—there is no proof that Saddam participated beforehand in al Qaeda attacks on America.

43. Fahrenheit shows Condoleezza Rice saying, “Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11.” The audience laughs derisively. Here is what Rice really said on Nov. 28, 2003: "Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York. This is a great terrorist, international terrorist network that is determined to defeat freedom. It has perverted Islam from a peaceful religion into one in which they call on it for violence. And they’re all linked. And Iraq is a central front because, if and when, and we will, we change the nature of Iraq to a place that is peaceful and democratic and prosperous in the heart of the Middle East, you will begin to change the Middle East...."

44. Moore portrays pre-liberation Iraq as a happy nation of kite-flying and weddings. In fact, a sixth of the population
had fled Saddam’s tyranny. The United Nations and Amnesty International condemned “the systematic, widespread
and extremely grave violations of human rights and of international humanitarian law by the Government of Iraq, resulting in an all-pervasive repression and oppression sustained by broad-based discrimination and widespread terror.

45. The only Iraqi casualties which Moore shows are civilians, although military casualties far outnumbered civilian.

46. When showing pictures of buildings being blown up, Moore does not reveal that many of them were military buildings, and civilians were never allowed anywhere near them.

47. A humorous sequence making fun of tiny countries in the Iraq liberation Coalition does not even mention the major countries in the Coalition, such as the U.K., Australia, Italy, and Japan. Not a deceit, but mean-spirited and exploitive: The footage of the funeral of U.S. Air Force Maj. Gregory Stone at Arlington National Cemetery appears without his family's permission, and over their vehement objection. Major Stone strongly believed in the Iraq mission, as does his family. The footage of Massachusetts National Guardsman Peter Damon, who is undergoing therapy at Walter Reed Army Medical Center is also used without his permission.

48. Despite Moore’s claims, American media have not been mindlessly supportive of the Iraq war. For example, Peter Jennings has been extremely critical. The evidence that Moore offers to portray Jennings as a war supporter is a clip of Jennings reporting in April 2003 that Saddam’s army had collapsed—which was true.

49. The scene of American soldiers making fun of a man underneath a sheet is not torture of a prisoner of war. They are making fun of a drunk who passed out in the street.

50. Moore reports that Bush proposed closing some Veteran’s hospitals. But he also proposed opening other veteran’s hospitals.

51. Bush once opposed renewing a special bonus of $75/ month for soldiers in “imminent danger zones.” Moore claims that Bush proposed cutting combat soldiers’ pay by 1/3; but a soldier's pay and benefits is over $27,000 per year, even at low enlisted grades.

53. Moore claims that only one Congressman has a child in Iraq. Actually, two do. (Democratic Senator Tim Johnson of S.D., and Republican Rep. Duncan Hunter of California.) Also, John Ashcroft has a son on a naval ship in the Persian Gulf.

52. While making false claims about a Bush pay cut, Moore omits the fact that Bush sought and won a 3.7% military pay raise in 2003.

54. Fahrenheit deceptively cut the footage of Rep. Mark Kennedy to make it look like Kennedy rebuffed Moore’s request to help enlist Congressional children. In fact, Kennedy said it was a good idea, and offered to help.

55. Fahrenheit shows Rep. Michael Castle walking past Moore. But Rep. Castle is childless.

56. Based on Census Bureau data, Congressional families are more likely than other families to have children serving in Iraq.

57. Moore calls Flint, Michigan, “my hometown.” In fact, he grew up in Davison, a much wealthier and much whiter suburb.

58. In Fahrenheit, Moore pretends to support our troops. But in fact, he supports the enemy in Iraq-the coalition of Saddam loyalists, al Qaeda operatives, and terrorists controlled by Iran or Syria-who are united in their desire to murder Iraqis, and to destroy any possibility of democracy in Iraq. Here is what Moore said on April 14, 2004, about the forces who are killing Americans and trying to impose totalitarian rule on Iraq: “The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not ‘insurgents’ or ‘terrorists’ or ‘The Enemy.’ They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow—and they will win.” Do you really think that someone who wants Iraq to be ruled by Islamist or Ba’athist tyranny, and who deliberately kills innocent civilians with car bombs, is like the American Minutemen?

59. As reported in the trade journal Screen Daily, affiliates of the Iranian and Syrian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah are promoting Fahrenheit 9/11, and Moore’s Middle East distributor, Front Row, is accepting the terrorist assistance: “In terms of marketing the film, Front Row is getting a boost from organizations related to Hezbollah which have rung up from Lebanon to ask if there is anything they can do to support the film. And although [Front Row’s Managing Director Giancarlo] Chacra says he and his company feel strongly that Fahrenheit is not anti-American, but anti-Bush, ‘we can’t go against these organizations as they could strongly boycott the film in Lebanon and Syria.’” (Nancy Tartaglione, “Fahrenheit to be first doc released theatrically in Middle East,” Screen Daily.com, June 9, 2004. The story is discussed in Samantha Ellis, “Fahrenheit 9/11 gets help offer from Hezbollah,” The Guardian (London), June 17, 2004.) Slate.com (6/24/04) followed up on the story, and reported: “Gianluca Chacra, the managing director of Front Row Entertainment, the movie’s distributor in the United Arab Emirates, confirms that Lebanese student members of Hezbollah ‘have asked us if there’s any way they could support the film.’ Chacra was unfazed, even excited, about their offer. ‘Having the support of such an entity in Lebanon is quite significant for that market and not at all controversial. I think it’s quite natural.’” Do you think it’s patriotic to accept help from a terrorist organization which has killed and kidnapped hundreds of Americans, which works with al Qaeda and other terrorists, and which is currently aiding the killing of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians? American patriotism can include presenting honest arguments against a particular American military policy. Hateriotism is the spreading of vicious lies against American soldiers and in favor of tyrants. It’s not unpatriotic to criticize a war or particular wartime policies. But how many patriots do you know who take aid from terrorists who kill Americans? This essay comes from the Independence Institute, a think-tank in Colorado which is founded on the principles of the Declaration of Independence (www.independenceinstitute. org). The author, Dave Kopel, is a life-long Democrat who endorsed and voted for Ralph Nader in 2000. He supports some but not all aspects of the current war on terror.


Permission is granted to reproduce and distribute this flyer, provided you obey each of these three requirements: 1. Respect private property and leave any area which the owner or manager tells you to leave; 2. Pick up all flyers in the area which are discarded as litter; 3. Respond to hateful or antagonistic people with kindness and maturity.

http://www.davekopel.org/terror/59Deceits.pdf
 
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bub

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Wow! I've not the time to read everything but thx, now I know the truth is not black or white, it's grey, and Farenheit is not very real...


No I think they don't like the United States because travel warnings tell Americans not to wear American flags on their clothing when they visit Europe.

Bah! You know, here we don't use to wear belgian flags or hang it in front of our houses! It's very surprising to us to see that there are "stars and stripes" everywhere!

We (at least me in fact) don't understand why you are so patriotic, why you are ready to fight and die for your country...of course, because you're proud of freedom and want to defend it, but myself I'd never kill or be killed for any reason.

I think it's because of the WWI.

Before, all the European were also patriotic etc... but when they got aware how many millions of people died for...nothing...that now they would refuse to do it again. That may explain why France did not fight Germans till the last man in 1940, as they would have done in 1914.

Because they're back stabbing jihadi appeasing socialists.

But they have nothing to do with Jihad! And what is the link between Jihad and socialism, except that you don't like both? (myself I'm not socialist don't worry ;) )
 
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