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Here’s the Latest Evidence Torture Doesn’t Keep Us Safe

Rogue Valley

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Here’s the Latest Evidence Torture Doesn’t Keep Us Safe

It all comes down to the neurological consequences of stressors....

defense-large.jpg
 

OrphanSlug

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I've always questioned what "torture" really provides us in good intelligence information anyway. Seems like science agrees.
 

joG

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Simpleχity;1065805600 said:
Here’s the Latest Evidence Torture Doesn’t Keep Us Safe

It all comes down to the neurological consequences of stressors....

defense-large.jpg

It is true that stress reduces mental focus. Anyone that has experienced it, knows this. It is trivial.

But one needs be careful with such research to understand, what it actually does mean. I have not read this paper, but to say "Ethics aside, science tells us that it has no value as an intelligence-gathering tactic. Indeed, waterboarding can actually lessen the brain’s ability to extract memory" and "Here’s the Latest Evidence Torture Doesn’t Keep Us Safe" in this context do not relate to each other. Saying the earlier supports the latter is false and usually intentionally false, where it is not just someone succumbing to his desires and others' propaganda. It is not that the interrogated party does not remember, you see, and so must search her memory for this detail or that, for which one uses enhanced interrogation methods.

So, what you would need, would be quite a different study. It would have to evaluate information garnered from interrogations using varying techniques. I believe that such research was done in the 1960s in Israel, but have not seen anything of recent manufacture. This is odd, as there was such a commotion about the topic. In any event, using the sited research seems to me to do the argument against enhanced methods more harm than good.
 

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Torture is effective at getting the answers you want, not as effective at getting the real answers. Psychological efforts work far more effectively. The British used to use a technique that was highly effective. They would capture a group of people they wanted information and jail them in cells that were uncomfortable, but not miserably so. Then they'd blindfold the whole group and take them into a room together and have them sit on the floor. They'd tell the people that if they'd simply stand up to indicate that they wanted to talk, a soldier would escort them from the room and talk to them. They would be promised good food, a warm room, clean clothes, bath, etc. What the prisoners didn't know was that the British would mix in a couple of their own soldiers with the prisoners and if after a while no one stood up, one of the British soldiers would do so. The British would always thank the person (without mentioning their name) so that everyone knew that someone had talked. Once that had happened, it was only matter of time before others would stand up as well. They would get voluntary information from multiple sources (the best kind of intel from interrogation).
 

Dittohead not!

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One day, we'll look back on torturing prisoners the same way we now look back on slavery and the Japanese relocation camps.

Let's hope that day comes soon. My country is better than that.
 

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But one needs be careful with such research to understand, what it actually does mean. I have not read this paper, but to say "Ethics aside, science tells us that it has no value as an intelligence-gathering tactic. Indeed, waterboarding can actually lessen the brain’s ability to extract memory" and "Here’s the Latest Evidence Torture Doesn’t Keep Us Safe" in this context do not relate to each other.
Uh... Yes, yes it does.

Waterboarding, harsh interrogation techniques and torture do not produce viable information; most of the time, the subject will only say whatever they think the interrogator wants to hear. They will do whatever they believe will end the suffering and/or threat to their life as quickly as possible. This has multiple negative effects:

- the subject is providing bad information
- the subject will not recall the real information, but whatever
- intelligence agencies, military commanders etc may base their tactics off of bad information

That alone guarantees that using those techniques makes us less safe. Unless you think that extracting incorrect information from a terrorist is somehow beneficial.


It is not that the interrogated party does not remember, you see, and so must search her memory for this detail or that, for which one uses enhanced interrogation methods.
Uh, hello? It's that not only does pain and suffering prevent recall, it potentially "overwrites" the memories of the interrogation subject. Instead of remembering things as they happen, they remember what the interrogator wants them to recall.

Most importantly, harsh interrogation and torture don't work. The FBI, for example, learned a long time ago that if you just ask the right type of questions, people are surprisingly likely to talk. It's not as dramatic as Jack Bauer shoving a live electrical wire into an orifice, but it has a better track record.

Why on earth would we use an interrogation policy that doesn't work in the first place?

The problem isn't with the research. It's that you can't be bothered to read a brief summary of the research.
 

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One day, we'll look back on torturing prisoners the same way we now look back on slavery and the Japanese relocation camps.

Let's hope that day comes soon. My country is better than that.

You and I are both dreamers. Some recent polls, 10 years after Abu Ghraib and less than 2 years after the Senate Report, show that 2 out of 3 americans support torture. My very informal guess is that about 2 out of 3 posters here feel the same.

Dick Cheney and Dubya took us to the Dark Side, and many found out they rather like it.
 

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One day, we'll look back on torturing prisoners the same way we now look back on slavery and the Japanese relocation camps.

Let's hope that day comes soon. My country is better than that.

"We?" Speak for yourself. I fully support President Roosevelt's order relocating persons of Japanese ancestry away from the West Coast.

I have seen articles like the one linked to here before. They are useful for leftists, who, when they are not busy running down the United States, hold out the crying towel for the Islamic jihadists who chose to make war on it. The three senior Al Qaeda jihadists who were subjected to the approved waterboarding technique were not then asked to perform complex square root calculations in their head. They were asked simple questions that were vital to our national security--who was in on the 9/11 attacks with them, where they could be found, and what other plots were in the works. It seems they answered well enough to let some of the other bastards be captured and further plots broken up before thousands more could be murdered.

The plain fact is that leftists side with these curs because they loathe America--and western civilization generally--just like the jihadists do. They have been cooperating ever since 9/11, as is well documented in a fine book by the man who led the prosecution of Abdel Rahman for leading the conspiracy to bomb the World Trade Center the first time, in 1993. His name is Andy McCarthy, and the book is entitled "The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America."
 

Dittohead not!

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You and I are both dreamers. Some recent polls, 10 years after Abu Ghraib and less than 2 years after the Senate Report, show that 2 out of 3 americans support torture. My very informal guess is that about 2 out of 3 posters here feel the same.

Dick Cheney and Dubya took us to the Dark Side, and many found out they rather like it.

and to think people believe that desecrating the flag is un American. Descending into the dark side is so many times worse.
 

Dittohead not!

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"We?" Speak for yourself. I fully support President Roosevelt's order relocating persons of Japanese ancestry away from the West Coast.

I have seen articles like the one linked to here before. They are useful for leftists, who, when they are not busy running down the United States, hold out the crying towel for the Islamic jihadists who chose to make war on it. The three senior Al Qaeda jihadists who were subjected to the approved waterboarding technique were not then asked to perform complex square root calculations in their head. They were asked simple questions that were vital to our national security--who was in on the 9/11 attacks with them, where they could be found, and what other plots were in the works. It seems they answered well enough to let some of the other bastards be captured and further plots broken up before thousands more could be murdered.

The plain fact is that leftists side with these curs because they loathe America--and western civilization generally--just like the jihadists do. They have been cooperating ever since 9/11, as is well documented in a fine book by the man who led the prosecution of Abdel Rahman for leading the conspiracy to bomb the World Trade Center the first time, in 1993. His name is Andy McCarthy, and the book is entitled "The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America."

Sorry, but it is the racists who still think Japanese relocation and slavery for blacks aren't blots on the record of America and those who still support torturing prisoners who really loath America and what it stands for. Shame on them.

Is that Andy McCarthy any relation to the famous Joe, or just a kindred spirit?
 

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One day, we'll look back on torturing prisoners the same way we now look back on slavery and the Japanese relocation camps.

Let's hope that day comes soon. My country is better than that.



I already do see it a medieval practice and completely contrary to the message we should be sending the middle east. We can argue until dooms day whether it meets the UN definition of 'torture' but the fact is it is suffering based compliance. It's just wrong.
 

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Sorry, but it is the racists who still think Japanese relocation and slavery for blacks aren't blots on the record of America and those who still support torturing prisoners who really loath America and what it stands for. Shame on them.

I doubt you know enough about the relocation to make any informed judgment about it. I suspect President Roosevelt's knowledge of what is now called the "Niihau incident" only convinced him more firmly that it was foolhardy, when the U.S. was at war with Japan, to take for granted the loyalty of all persons of Japanese ancestry living within U.S. territory. Many of these people had dual citizenship, because under Japanese law a person born in Japan retained his Japanese citizenship even if he permanently emigrated to another nation. In wartime, it should be self-evident that the loyalty of anyone who is a citizen of both belligerents is uncertain.

What's more, five Japanese submarines were patrolling off our West Coast from the Canadian to the Mexican border during December, 1941. At Portland and at Santa Cruz, these subs attacked merchant ships and chased almost into the harbors. Even a single spy relaying information about ship movements might have gotten a ship sunk, and if it had been carrying troops, that could well have cost the lives of many hundreds of Americans. And we now know a number of persons of Japanese ancestry living on Vancouver Island and on Terminal Island, near L.A., were agents for Japan.

Shame on all those people who choose to enjoy the benefits of living in this country while spreading slanders against it and playing the apologist for its enemies. Anyone who does that is a disloyal coward. The false claim that the U.S. authorized the torture of Islamic jihadist war criminals is a staple of leftist anti-American propaganda. Leftists and jihadists are natural allies--the both loathe America and western civilization.

Is that Andy McCarthy any relation to the famous Joe, or just a kindred spirit?

Senator Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin is a personal hero of mine. He was a very brave patriot who was attacked and finally ruined by Democratic politicians who were damned liars. These unscrupulous (and in some cases, e.g. Dean Acheson, probably disloyal) men were determined to cover up the massive infiltration of federal government agencies by people working for Stalin's USSR against the United States. which had occurred during the Roosevelt and Truman administrations. The documents that have come to light since McCarthy's time run into the millions of pages, and even the small fraction which has so far been studied--largely in the form of the decrypts of the Venona cables and hundreds of thousands of pages of FBI files--proves that McCarthy, whatever mistakes he made, was far more sinned against than sinning. He was right about almost every person he suspected of disloyalty, and in several cases these people were even worse than he or anyone else knew at the time.
 
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Orly?

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2 out of 3 americans support torture. My very informal guess is that about 2 out of 3 posters here feel the same.

Eh.. This place is VERY liberal biased..
 

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lol too funny...

Get serious, almost everyone over 30 is conservative.

I used to be very conservative, till I realized it was unfair.
 

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Torture is effective at getting the answers you want, not as effective at getting the real answers. Psychological efforts work far more effectively. The British used to use a technique that was highly effective. They would capture a group of people they wanted information and jail them in cells that were uncomfortable, but not miserably so. Then they'd blindfold the whole group and take them into a room together and have them sit on the floor. They'd tell the people that if they'd simply stand up to indicate that they wanted to talk, a soldier would escort them from the room and talk to them. They would be promised good food, a warm room, clean clothes, bath, etc. What the prisoners didn't know was that the British would mix in a couple of their own soldiers with the prisoners and if after a while no one stood up, one of the British soldiers would do so. The British would always thank the person (without mentioning their name) so that everyone knew that someone had talked. Once that had happened, it was only matter of time before others would stand up as well. They would get voluntary information from multiple sources (the best kind of intel from interrogation).



That is fricking brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. You get them thinking "Well somebody talked, so the cats out of the bag anyway, and I'd like better food and stuff too..."
 

grip

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That is fricking brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. You get them thinking "Well somebody talked, so the cats out of the bag anyway, and I'd like better food and stuff too..."


My father used fear very effectively, a similar form of mental coercion.


What's unfair about it? No free stuff?

From your own mouth I'll hold you accountable. Look it up.
 

Dittohead not!

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1, I doubt you know enough about the relocation to make any informed judgment about it. I suspect President Roosevelt's knowledge of what is now called the "Niihau incident" only convinced him more firmly that it was foolhardy, when the U.S. was at war with Japan, to take for granted the loyalty of all persons of Japanese ancestry living within U.S. territory. Many of these people had dual citizenship, because under Japanese law a person born in Japan retained his Japanese citizenship even if he permanently emigrated to another nation. In wartime, it should be self-evident that the loyalty of anyone who is a citizen of both belligerents is uncertain.

What's more, five Japanese submarines were patrolling off our West Coast from the Canadian to the Mexican border during December, 1941. At Portland and at Santa Cruz, these subs attacked merchant ships and chased almost into the harbors. Even a single spy relaying information about ship movements might have gotten a ship sunk, and if it had been carrying troops, that could well have cost the lives of many hundreds of Americans. And we now know a number of persons of Japanese ancestry living on Vancouver Island and on Terminal Island, near L.A., were agents for Japan.

Shame on all those people who choose to enjoy the benefits of living in this country while spreading slanders against it and playing the apologist for its enemies. Anyone who does that is a disloyal coward. 2. The false claim that the U.S. authorized the torture of Islamic jihadist war criminals is a staple of leftist anti-American propaganda. 3. Leftists and jihadists are natural allies--the both loathe America and western civilization.



4. Senator Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin is a personal hero of mine. He was a very brave patriot who was attacked and finally ruined by Democratic politicians who were damned liars. These unscrupulous (and in some cases, e.g. Dean Acheson, probably disloyal) men were determined to cover up the massive infiltration of federal government agencies by people working for Stalin's USSR against the United States. which had occurred during the Roosevelt and Truman administrations. The documents that have come to light since McCarthy's time run into the millions of pages, and even the small fraction which has so far been studied--largely in the form of the decrypts of the Venona cables and hundreds of thousands of pages of FBI files--proves that McCarthy, whatever mistakes he made, was far more sinned against than sinning. He was right about almost every person he suspected of disloyalty, and in several cases these people were even worse than he or anyone else knew at the time.

1. Doubt away. The relocating of Japanese into concentration camps was racism, pure and simple. Why weren't the German Americans so treated?

2. What is false is the claim that only one prisoner was tortured, and only waterboarding was used.

3. It is the "righties," not the "lefties" who are ready to go along with the extremists who want a war between the west and Islam.

4. That figures.

I noticed you stopped talking about slavery. Are you OK with that as well?
 

Orly?

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From your own mouth I'll hold you accountable. Look it up.

I'm sure I could find plenty of liberal propaganda to support the position that conservatism is unfair..
 

grip

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I'm sure I could find plenty of liberal propaganda to support the position that conservatism is unfair..

By your own standards, will you be judged. Try forgiveness and kindness and that's what you'll receive. You're not perfect are you?
 

Dittohead not!

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Eh.. This place is VERY liberal biased..

Not sure what that means.

Do you doubt that 2 out of three posters on DP support torture since there is a liberal bias?
Or do you mean that liberals support torture, so it fits that 2 out of 3 posters support torture?
 

Orly?

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Not sure what that means.

1.Do you doubt that 2 out of three posters on DP support torture since there is a liberal bias?
2.Or do you mean that liberals support torture, so it fits that 2 out of 3 posters support torture?

1. Yes..

2. No..

I mean their is very high PC bias here therefore the polling that takes place on this forum does not reflect reality..
 

Dittohead not!

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1. Yes..

2. No..

I mean their is very high PC bias here therefore the polling that takes place on this forum does not reflect reality..

I see. That must mean that conservatives are the ones who support torturing prisoners then.
 
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