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Arch Enemy

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So we're in Iraq right? Many of our brothers are dying every day from a relentless enemy, who will never tire nor die out. Fighting this enemy and becoming victorious is impossible. So the smart thing to do would be to pull our brothers out of danger and into safety, yet we haven't "completed the mission"

I must be out of it or something, but what exactly is our mission? We've successfully invaded Iraqi soils, we destroyed Saddam's regime, we've created an Iraqi Security force, we've also exposed these people to an act of democracy and a showing of freedom.
Is our current mission to aid the Iraqi people? If so then why is it that alto of our military personal would agree that they're only looking after their own skin now.


I really am clueless. Enlighten Me!
 

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And if we leave now I believe the Iraqi government will fall, the UN will blame us, and it would have been a complete waste of time. I feel sort of the same way as you. If Alkida (sorry about the spelling) would have been distroyed it would have happened a long time ago. I hope we destroy terrorism. That would be freakin awsome, but not all dreams come true. I wish the whole world was under democracy. This is seeming to turn out like Vietnam.
But hey, they say time heals all, maybe even terrerism. We'll see.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by ArchEnemy:
So we're in Iraq right? Many of our brothers are dying every day from a relentless enemy, who will never tire nor die out. Fighting this enemy and becoming victorious is impossible. So the smart thing to do would be to pull our brothers out of danger and into safety, yet we haven't "completed the mission"

I must be out of it or something, but what exactly is our mission? We've successfully invaded Iraqi soils, we destroyed Saddam's regime, we've created an Iraqi Security force, we've also exposed these people to an act of democracy and a showing of freedom.
Is our current mission to aid the Iraqi people? If so then why is it that alto of our military personal would agree that they're only looking after their own skin now.

I really am clueless. Enlighten Me!
You need to understand the concept of Corporatism, in order to see why we are there, and there we will stay. You don't build four US bases on Iraqi soil with the intention of leaving. If your really interested, go to the website below, and navigate over to the icon Corporatism:

www.craigbhulet.com
 

FiremanRyan

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Billo_Really said:
You need to understand the concept of Corporatism, in order to see why we are there, and there we will stay. You don't build four US bases on Iraqi soil with the intention of leaving. If your really interested, go to the website below, and navigate over to the icon Corporatism:

www.craigbhulet.com
please show me one foreign war the US was involved in where they didnt establish military bases.

we are still in Iraq to ensure our progress. just look at any news source and you will quickly realize that the new Iraqi government is not able to stand on its own just yet. not to mention that there are still pockets of resistance and groups willing to kill to find a spot in this new government. once they're able to operate independantly, we can pull out, but doing that too soon would be a complete waste. we lost a lot of lives, but we're bringing some stability to a very unstable area. already other countries are following suite (this isnt something you hear about much in the US media huh?), but if we pulled out now, all lost lives and years of progress would be worthless. not to mention an utter act of irresponsibility. id rather have us be known as the country that started a controversial war but brought a working democracy to a troubled nation, not the country who started a controversial war and left another in complete shambles.
 

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Arch Enemy, you noted that our soldiers were over there dying and fighting still. This cannot be denied. The simple truth is that the Iraqi government is not yet self-sufficient and cannot support itself if we left. And keep in mind these Iraqis attacking our troops are not just attacking for the fun of it. They are attacking in the very hopes we will pull out and then they can overthrow the still weak Iraqi government and return things to the way they were before, running the country through brutality threats and violence by an upper ruling class or dictator. I assure you, the President is not happy about Americans dying either, as much as some people would like to tell you. Our politicians, liberal and conservative alike, want the soldiers home as soon as possible. but right now, it is not possible.
 

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The mission, quite simply, I believe, is oil. Bush set out to create an ally out of Iraq, the nation with the second most oil in the world. Many geologists now have stated that the world has reached peak oil, that is, we can never pump more oil out of this earth than we currently are. This means that for the next few decades, we should see a steady fall in the world's oil supply and thus a steady rise in oil prices. Now, it should be blatantly obvious to everyone that the US is dependent upon oil for survival. Ever since China has upped its oil purchasing, the US sees itself in quite a precarious situation. The government wants to keep this economy afloat, and wants us to be able to afford oil, and therefore we need a steady supply of oil. Alaska won't do it, Saudi Arabia and the US are in quite the situation right now, and China has upped its purchasing of oil. From a US perspective, it's perfectly logical that we should make an ally out of another oil rich nation, namely, Iraq.

So why are we still there? Well, if we want to freely use Iraqi oil, we must make sure we have a secure, and more importantly pro-US Iraqi government. So I'd venture that we are there for simply that reason: to secure Iraq, and thus secure the oil flow to the US.
 

Arch Enemy

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FiremanRyan said:
please show me one foreign war the US was involved in where they didnt establish military bases.

we are still in Iraq to ensure our progress. just look at any news source and you will quickly realize that the new Iraqi government is not able to stand on its own just yet. not to mention that there are still pockets of resistance and groups willing to kill to find a spot in this new government. once they're able to operate independantly, we can pull out, but doing that too soon would be a complete waste. we lost a lot of lives, but we're bringing some stability to a very unstable area. already other countries are following suite (this isnt something you hear about much in the US media huh?), but if we pulled out now, all lost lives and years of progress would be worthless. not to mention an utter act of irresponsibility. id rather have us be known as the country that started a controversial war but brought a working democracy to a troubled nation, not the country who started a controversial war and left another in complete shambles.
Living with-out any self-dignity is a hard thing to do, but at least you're living. Would you be willing to tell the wives, parents, childrens, husbands and friends of many soldiers that their loved ones died because you'd rather not admit your mistake, that you'd rather not admit that your ignorance got in the way of the lives of American people. Please don't tell me "they enlisted to fight for their country, so this was their duty" that's total bs, they enlisted because they wanted to PROTECT their country, not fight somebodies else's war.

Iraq was NOT a threat to the United States, they didn't poses the weapon capability to attack the United States, Bush knew this. Ok, you might be able to make the arguement "Saddam needed to be removed from power his opression of his people needed to end" but you forget the fact the Iraqi people aren't the worst off. If the United States is playing Global Police, then they're obviously doing a terrible job, Al Queida is much stronger now that they have more sympathizers than before.

Satanloveslibs said:
And if we leave now I believe the Iraqi government will fall, the UN will blame us, and it would have been a complete waste of time.
There's no other way to see if this government can hold it's own then to put it on it's own feet and let it deal with these situations by itself. Is a Conservative actually caring what the UN thinks? Doesn't that go against your code of conducts? The reason why they would blame us is because countries like France offered us help in this coalition and we turned around a threw it in their face. They told us if we gave the inspectors more time, then they'd join our coalition, I know if France would join our efforts then the UN would definitely validate our invasion and we wouldn't be at these odds we are today.
"Complete waste of time", I believe that's what this whole campaign is. We invade a country, who we knew didn't pose much of a threat to us, we easily dominate what was left of their military force, we're met with an insurgency which will only stop once we leave. The Iraqi people are worse off, instead of being afraid of a man who has ultimate power of their lives, they're afraid of men who have bombs strapped to their chest and are willing to blow them sky-high. I don't blame any Iraqis who are pissed at the United States, last time we came to help them we left them with the same tyrannical dictator, after-math of war, and newly posted Sanctions! I'd be angry too.

SatanlovesLibs said:
I hope we destroy terrorism. That would be freakin awsome, but not all dreams come true. I wish the whole world was under democracy.
Haha that's funny, we cannot destroy terrorism! The War on Terrorism cannot be won it can only be fought, and fighting means death... so the War on Terrorism will only end up in bloodshed. Wishing the world was under democracy bascially means you support America's global domination efforts? I mean, we're the only country fighting to force democracy on other countries, are we not?

topgun said:
I assure you, the President is not happy about Americans dying either, as much as some people would like to tell you. Our politicians, liberal and conservative alike, want the soldiers home as soon as possible. but right now, it is not possible.
"Our" politicans? "Your" politicans, I don't accept the politicians who run this country, I've yet to see one worthy enough to shine my sneakers before my next basketball game.
If Mr. Dubya is not happy with seeing Americans die, then why did he *lie* to the American populace and put them in harms way? At least he could look-up information about his choices of invading, Sudan would have been a great choice! Sudanese Warlords would run at the sight of an Apache, casualties would be minimum and we'd be able to stop the worst war crime of all time! GENOCIDE.

topgun said:
The simple truth is that the Iraqi government is not yet self-sufficient and cannot support itself if we left.
When is it sufficient enough to be released on its own? I'll answer that for you, as soon as we get the baby bottle out of it's mouth and let it grow and strengthen on its own. I mean we went through the same thing.
 

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Arch Enemy said:
Living with-out any self-dignity is a hard thing to do, but at least you're living. Would you be willing to tell the wives, parents, childrens, husbands and friends of many soldiers that their loved ones died because you'd rather not admit your mistake, that you'd rather not admit that your ignorance got in the way of the lives of American people. Please don't tell me "they enlisted to fight for their country, so this was their duty" that's total bs, they enlisted because they wanted to PROTECT their country, not fight somebodies else's war.

Iraq was NOT a threat to the United States, they didn't poses the weapon capability to attack the United States, Bush knew this. Ok, you might be able to make the arguement "Saddam needed to be removed from power his opression of his people needed to end" but you forget the fact the Iraqi people aren't the worst off. If the United States is playing Global Police, then they're obviously doing a terrible job, Al Queida is much stronger now that they have more sympathizers than before.
no one's saying you're wrong. but what mistake did i make? i dont feel that i have anyone to apologize to. and would i tell a parent that their son or daughter died for what i said? yes. i hate telling "my friend" stories but i have one that applies pretty well...

i went to high school with a kid named Nate. he graduated with a 3.9, great guy, and completely unbiased when it came to politics, he was dead in the middle. after high school he enlisted in the airforce and became a para-rescueman. his family was very anti-war and after being sent to Iraq, they constantly wanted to know about what he felt being over there. he thought we should have been there because our intellegence and that of other countries all pointed to WMD's. but he said that even if that wasnt the case, the US was doing the best thing possible for the Iraqi people. he said they have so much love for the US military and the fact that theyre there to enforce a change in government that he doesnt regret going one bit. she asked him if he would die for that and he said absolutely. well back in 04, Nate died when their helicopter went down. at his funeral, his mom openly said that they oppose the war, but admitted that "their son died for something he wanted, something he thought should be done".

...so did i support the Iraq war? yes. did i vote for W? yes. but i also agree that there are some shady things surrounding this war and Bush himself. i dont exactly side with what we did and especially how we did it. but let me tell you one thing. as someone who has many close friends and family members currently serving in the military, and from someone who was breifly in the military himself, i can say that the majority of our troops serving in Iraq know that they are there for a purpose. whether they think the WMD thing was a lie/error or not, to them it has become a humanitarian issue. every lib says "oh thats bullshit". well, its not to them, and honestly their opinion on the matter means a hell of a lot more than any of yours.
 
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Arch Enemy said:
There's no other way to see if this government can hold it's own then to put it on it's own feet and let it deal with these situations by itself. Is a Conservative actually caring what the UN thinks? Doesn't that go against your code of conducts? The reason why they would blame us is because countries like France offered us help in this coalition and we turned around a threw it in their face. They told us if we gave the inspectors more time, then they'd join our coalition, I know if France would join our efforts then the UN would definitely validate our invasion and we wouldn't be at these odds we are today.
"Complete waste of time", I believe that's what this whole campaign is. We invade a country, who we knew didn't pose much of a threat to us, we easily dominate what was left of their military force, we're met with an insurgency which will only stop once we leave. The Iraqi people are worse off, instead of being afraid of a man who has ultimate power of their lives, they're afraid of men who have bombs strapped to their chest and are willing to blow them sky-high. I don't blame any Iraqis who are pissed at the United States, last time we came to help them we left them with the same tyrannical dictator, after-math of war, and newly posted Sanctions! I'd be angry too.
Haha that's funny, we cannot destroy terrorism! The War on Terrorism cannot be won it can only be fought, and fighting means death... so the War on Terrorism will only end up in bloodshed. Wishing the world was under democracy bascially means you support America's global domination efforts? I mean, we're the only country fighting to force democracy on other countries, are we not?
Well you're right when you say that we have to let the country stand on its own, but even you have to admit that the government is not stable enough to do everything on its own. Think of it as if you are going to teach a younger sibiling how to play a video game. Do you expect to tell them all the controls once and think they'll remember them all. HECK NO! It's sort of the same in Iraq. I say that we help them run the government for a couple fo years and then very very slowy pull troups out as the Iraqi people get the hang of it. If I lived in Iraq when Saddam was in power I'd be praying everyday that some country would have the balls to come over here and throw him out of power. Whouldn't you want the same? WOULD'NT YOU! And if you lived in Iraq wouldn't you think that liberals were selfesh winey thumbsuckers. I sure do!
 

Arch Enemy

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FiremanRyan said:
no one's saying you're wrong. but what mistake did i make? i dont feel that i have anyone to apologize to. and would i tell a parent that their son or daughter died for what i said? yes. i hate telling "my friend" stories but i have one that applies pretty well...

i went to high school with a kid named Nate. he graduated with a 3.9, great guy, and completely unbiased when it came to politics, he was dead in the middle. after high school he enlisted in the airforce and became a para-rescueman. his family was very anti-war and after being sent to Iraq, they constantly wanted to know about what he felt being over there. he thought we should have been there because our intellegence and that of other countries all pointed to WMD's. but he said that even if that wasnt the case, the US was doing the best thing possible for the Iraqi people. he said they have so much love for the US military and the fact that theyre there to enforce a change in government that he doesnt regret going one bit. she asked him if he would die for that and he said absolutely. well back in 04, Nate died when their helicopter went down. at his funeral, his mom openly said that they oppose the war, but admitted that "their son died for something he wanted, something he thought should be done".

...so did i support the Iraq war? yes. did i vote for W? yes. but i also agree that there are some shady things surrounding this war and Bush himself. i dont exactly side with what we did and especially how we did it. but let me tell you one thing. as someone who has many close friends and family members currently serving in the military, and from someone who was breifly in the military himself, i can say that the majority of our troops serving in Iraq know that they are there for a purpose. whether they think the WMD thing was a lie/error or not, to them it has become a humanitarian issue. every lib says "oh thats bullshit". well, its not to them, and honestly their opinion on the matter means a hell of a lot more than any of yours.

I see your point. Me being against the war doesn't mean I'm against our soldiers fighting in the war... I support them and hold them in higher dignity then I could hold myself, they're so into their duty that they might die... even if they don't agree with the war. It's not the soldiers I have problems with, it's the commanders, the ones who sit behind desks and while sipping on a nice glass of beer give the orders to their troops. I think that all commanders/generals should be placed in the same situation as the "grunts" of the army, I see no honor given to our current day generals fore they didn't do much execpt sign some papers, give some bird=eye tactics, and take the blame if their mission fails.
The biggest problem with War isn't the tactics, isn't the "we need supplies here", and it's not the long-ranged tactical missiles. The real problem is when you have the enemy in your scopes, then you begin to wonder if you should take this other persons' life, if the politican's political causes are enough motivation for you to end this person's life, one who has a family, one who bleeds the same blood, made up of the same materials... one who values their own life. Then before you know it, you're dead.
About the "telling the parents" thing, I was meaning if you're a strong political leader... let's say... President, do you think you could approach a weeping mother and tell her "we could have pulled your son out of the way of fire, but we decided our unachieveable military goal was way more important than your son's life... I have no regrets".

On a more personal note, what is your military background? I've been thinking about the military myself, not because I may want to join, but becuase I'm interested in one of the hardest jobs, ever.

SatanicCultistLovesLiberals said:
but even you have to admit that the government is not stable enough to do everything on its own.
You're absolutely correct, I do believe the Iraqi government isn't ready for this task on its own (see Gunner's Palace for more information!). But just like our ancestors, they're not ready to take full-power of their land mass. Yet the only way for them to become ready, is to suck it up and make a change. Once the Iraqi people feel like they're actually being governed by the new Iraqi Government, then the system will work out. As much as people try to tell us, I don't think the Iraqi People want us there. I mean, we didn't want France to occupy American once we defeated the British, did we?
 

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Arch Enemy said:
On a more personal note, what is your military background? I've been thinking about the military myself, not because I may want to join, but becuase I'm interested in one of the hardest jobs, ever.
its not much but i learned a lot. i was 8 months enlisted with the Air Force as a Flight Engineer and was supposed to ship out the next month. long story short, i was injured in a car accident and medically discharged. thats why im fighting fire today and not flying on a C-17.

off topic, but in my opinion, if you have the brains and the drive, the military can be one of the best jobs to have. this depends a lot on what you're doing though. what job were you looking at?
 

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FiremanRyan said:
its not much but i learned a lot. i was 8 months enlisted with the Air Force as a Flight Engineer and was supposed to ship out the next month. long story short, i was injured in a car accident and medically discharged. thats why im fighting fire today and not flying on a C-17.

off topic, but in my opinion, if you have the brains and the drive, the military can be one of the best jobs to have. this depends a lot on what you're doing though. what job were you looking at?

If I'd join anything in the military, then I'd join the Air-Force. I've just always been a fanatic on the topic of military aircraft, battles, and of course... weapons. You're correct, it's one of the best jobs to have, for example.. a friend of mine lives in Hawaii and is currently a Sargent Medical Officer. He gets a free house, a nice salary, free schooling and other great benefits (not to mention he LIVES in Hawaii!). Then there's also the hard part that you may be sent out to fight in a war, leaving the ones you loved. On a show I watched called "Road to Baghdad" there was one guy who left his pregnant wife at home, this was 2 years ago... the baby is already 2 years old and hasn't even seen it's father figure. That to me would crush me, having to leave a family in its most needed times wouldn't be what I called "great".
Would you rather still be enlisted in the Air-Force? Do you still get the benefits?
 

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Arch Enemy said:
Would you rather still be enlisted in the Air-Force? Do you still get the benefits?
sometimes. i knew it wouldnt be a career and ultimately id end up being a paramedic/firefighter so its not so bad. i just feel like i missed out on a great opportunity to serve my country and gaint a lot of experience. and nope, no benefits.
 

Arch Enemy

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Joe ohhnoo said:
Your death and theirs is not in vain. Please go to this web site below, and at the left hand side click on Beheading word and see the real Islam in action.
http://www.nomullas.com/
They're nothing more than Terrorists. The War on Terrorism cannot be won, it can only be fought and through fighting there'll come only bloodshed.
 
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