Hello I am a Baby in my Mommy’s Womb

[steen]

ok.... steen has educated me on brain waves

a heart beating plus human dna plus a living mother (barring life support) equals a real live fetus!

Close enough for now, at least aftre the 8th week of development :lol:

explain to me how something that's not living can die when the mother dies?

Who said it can't die? I don't recall ANYBODY claiming that the mebryo/fetus couldn't die or wasn't "alive." So your claim doesn't make sense.

 

[Aurora151989]

Close enough for now, at least aftre the 8th week of development :lol:
Who said it can't die? I don't recall ANYBODY claiming that the mebryo/fetus couldn't die or wasn't "alive." So your claim doesn't make sense.

alright, i take back the claim of alive/dead

oh, partial hydatidiform moles can't be a human because it never grows into a fetus who becomes a baby once born. Ie, chicken eggs produce chicks, duck eggs produce ducklings but moles don't produce humans!

 

[jallman]

Hello I am a Baby in my Mommy’s Womb
By JP Freeman
Hello I just got here I am a new individual. I have my own DNA, different from Mom's and Dad's. Don't worry I am human my DNA proves that. Boy I love my Mom her belly is so nice and warm and it is always giving me Hugs. Mom loves me she is taking care of me by feeding me and giving me a place to grow. I notice my form is changing everyday. Did I tell you how much I love my Mommy? In just two weeks I have a brain and a heart. Now it is three weeks something is thumping do you know what it is? My heart silly. If you did not guess you must be Pro Choice. What is Pro Choice anyway? I must be getting a backbone to ask a question like that? Boy I also noticed my circulatory system is now separate from my Mommy's. I am very excited I am getting eyes I wonder what color they will be? Also my ears are starting to grow? I hope not to big. My chest is getting bigger I guess I have something called Lungs They do not work yet. One month after conception I have a separate circulatory system my heart is beating a little fast I have to work out. Five weeks now I have fingers, Bony jaw, a fully developed spinal column, ribs, I am even getting nervous no I mean a nervous system. I don't know why my system is nervous Mommy is even giving me more hugs with her belly I am so warm and comfy. It is now 7 weeks my kidneys are forming my stomach is forming. Mommy feel my muscles I am getting them to aren't you proud? Mommy it's eight weeks All my body parts are developing so fast now I even have brain waves. Mommy this little piggy went to the market this little piggy had roast beef (my favorite don't tell Victoria) I have toes now. Nine weeks I can feel pain now Mommy so please be careful. Eleven weeks now I have finger prints I can't wait to come out and put them on everything, but I am not ready yet I love my Mommy I want to stay inside awhile longer.12 weeks Mommy I did not mean to do pee pee Mommy I guess I am a boy. Mommy I feel something strange sucking it is getting stronger Mommy I am scared it hurts Mommy My arms and Legs are coming off CRY Ahhh I thought you loved me! AHH! Silence You are no longer pregnant the Doctor says
This is the Horror of Abortion.

Can anyone deny this does not happen? The story tells you how a baby developes during the time most abortions take place.

What a clever way to package total bullshit. The first misrepresentation in all this is the whole brainwave revision. Its a common lie that pro lifers tell to make you feel sympathy for a mass of cells that deserves no more moral elevation than my left pinky would when separated from my body. Brainwaves may be present in an erratic and fashion, but we dont know this. In fact, the only EEG data we have is taken from premies...not twelve week fetuses.

The second is the whole feeling pain lie. Pain cannot be experienced until the entire biological infrastructure is in place...nerves, lower brain, middle brain, cerebral cortex, and thalamus to connect it all.

You can package the lies from the "perspective" of the fetus all you want, but it is still all lie. The pro-life stance is flimsy and a complete sham and so must rely on emotional appeals and false imagery to inspire guilt or compassion (but most often guilt) in order to promote their objective of enslaving the woman and taking away her reproductive rights.

 

[Aurora151989]

if i may ask, please read the thread, particularly my posts if you haven't already. However i respect your opinion of the opening post.:2wave:

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

A dead person has DNA. That does not make them a living human being.

Again DNA from a Dead person came from a person. We know the Baby in womb is a person because He or She Has its own DNA and That person is growing so that person is alive. To be alive you must be able to replace cells make new ones Grow.

Why does it not make them one? Because they have no functional brainwaves, and they do not have the intellect that is defined as being a Homo sapien.

DNA proves they are Homo Sapien

 

[Aurora151989]

DNA proves they are Homo Sapien

Gibberish said, it doesn't make them a living human... yes human dna makes a human but the human could be alive or dead. It takes a beating heart to make that distinction

 

[Old and wise]

Getting back to the title of this thread, it is not a baby and a viable human being until it leaves the womb and is born. Until then it is a fetus.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Gibberish said, it doesn't make them a living human... yes human dna makes a human but the human could be alive or dead. It takes a beating heart to make that distinction

Wrong if something is alive it only has to growYou do not have to have heart beating for life to exist HMMM Should I

Well Please I am not calling a baby in a womb a plant or anything but human. Again DNA proves this. Plants do not have hearts they are alive.

 

[Gibberish]

DNA proves they are Homo Sapien

Since Fetus's and Dead people both have DNA and are Homo Sapiens.

Back to the original debate.

What defines them as being an intellectual living being? Brainwaves such as stated in previous posts?

 

[steen]

Please fix the use of your "quote" or use differentiating colors, thanks.

Prove it. Show the reference to the science.

Ohio Dept of Health and my own premature Babies born alive at 20 weeks Try telling me they did not have Brains waves

Sure. They didn't have brainwaves. Now, please go back to the point where Aurora claimed this:
"alright.... there is scientific evidence that babies have brain waves at 8 weeks gestation."

I am waiting for scientific evidence of this. Aurora is backing off a bit from this, but you now are taking it on yourself to claim this as factual. So I am now asking you, please provide the scientific evidence. Merely claiming that you can't believe anythign else is not evidence.

what was making their hearts beat?

reflexes and autonomic nerve function. This occurs without brainwaves as well, and as such is not evidence of brai n waves.

or why were the breathing.

Same answer.

Get your facts and show me your source now. Smart guy or gal

I am merely asking for evidence of a claim made about science. I don't have to prove anything. But certainly, any embryonic neurophysiology textbook will confirm that the thalamocortical tract doesn't connect until the end of the 26th week of pregnancy. This is a known medical fact:

http://www.parliament.uk/post/pn094.pdf
....These thalamocortical fibres start developing
at 17 weeks and penetrate the cortical plate to
make permanent connections at 22-34 weeks.....

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947
...Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks....

http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/jul03/article1.htm
......Prior to 26 weeks, the thalamocortical fibers have not yet penetrated the cortical plate, and it seems unlikely the cortical structures considered necessary for pain are responding to noxious stimulation (Mrzljak, Uylings, Kostovic, & van Eden, 1988).

Nah, you can not, of course, provide evidence for your claim, because in real science (you know, different from anti-choice whisful thinking and misrepresentations), "brain waves" are very specific interaction patters that physically are unable to occur until after the 26th week of pregnancy.
But the fetus is not a person, so that claim is irrelevant.

Fetus is Latin for Baby

(1) Nope, your claim is false.
http://www.answers.com/topic/fetus
fe·tus (fē'təs)
n., pl. -tus·es.
The unborn young of a viviparous vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult animal.
In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=#18064
fētus (foet- ), a, um, adj. [Part., from ‡ FEO, whence also: fecundus, femina, fenus, felix] , that is or was filled with young (syn.: gravidus, praegnans).

I. Pregnant, breeding (mostly poet.).
A. Lit.: lenta salix feto pecori, Verg. E. 3, 83 ; 1, 50: vulpes, Hor. C. 3, 27, 5 .--
2. Transf.
a. Of land, fruitful, productive: (terra) feta parit nitidas fruges, etc., Lucr. 2, 994 ; cf.: terra feta frugibus et vario leguminum genere, * Cic. N. D. 2, 62, 156: loca palustribus ulvis, Ov. M. 14, 103 : regio nec pomo nec uvis, id. P. 1, 7, 13 ; id. F. 1, 662.--Also of plants: palmites, Col. 3, 21, 3 .--
b. In gen., filled with any thing, full: machina armis, Verg. A. 2, 238 : loca furentibus austris, id. ib. 1, 51 : colla serpentis veneno, Sil. 17, 448 .--
B. Trop., full of.--With abl.: feta furore Megaera, Sil. 13, 592 : praecordia bello, id. 17, 380 : praecordia irā, id. 11, 203 . --With gen.: fetas novales Martis, Claud. Bell. Get. 25 ; and in a Gr. construction: fetus Gradivo mentem, id. 10, 14 .--
II. That has brought forth, newly delivered: veniebant fetam amicae gratulatum, Varr. ap. Non. 312, 12: agiles et fetae (opp. tardiores et gravidae), Col. 7, 3 fin. : ursa, Ov. M. 13, 803 : lupa, Verg. A. 8, 630 : ovis, id. E. 1, 50 ; Ov. F. 2, 413: qua feta jacebat uxor et infantes ludebant, Juv. 14, 167 .--Absol.: insueta gravis temptabunt pabula fetas, Verg. E. 1, 49 .


(2) We are not speaking Latin here.

There is no baby until birth, and your sophistry merely underscores your ignorance.

Again who is ignorant Fetus is Latin for Baby.

See above.

Source Dr Albert E Reese former chairman OB/GYN Temple University. I think he is now the Dean of the Arkansau U Med School

And so what? Is he a linguist?

 

[steen]

alright, i take back the claim of alive/dead

oh, partial hydatidiform moles can't be a human because it never grows into a fetus who becomes a baby once born. Ie, chicken eggs produce chicks, duck eggs produce ducklings but moles don't produce humans!

Ah, so you are basing this on its potential, not on what it actually is, admitting that the reference to DNA is outright invalid? Thanks for that.

 

[ngdawg]

At two weeks an embryo does NOT have a brain. The 'heart' is primitive and does not "thump", it flutters and looks like a strobe light when viewed in ultrasound.
At five weeks, the fetus looks like a 'paisley'. It does NOT have fingers, it has nubs sticking out from the inner curve of the paisley. It is about 1/4 long.
The circulatory system, while developing within the fetus, is NOT completely separate from the mother-it is attached through an 'umbilical cord', which is attached to a placenta, attached to the uterus with thousands of 'veins'(the villous network) that take blood and nutrients and, after filtering, feed through the fetus' blood stream. The placenta is in place around the second month-before then the embryo is directly attached to the wall of the uterus.

Abortion done properly does not rip off arms, etc. More anti-choice propaganda. Can't present facts, present false horrors. It never ceases to amaze me how people with no clue, no experience and no facts to back up their claims still try to make others become as unknowledgeable as they. Not to mention the fact that no one has denied that what grows in a human uterus isn't human. It's pointless WITH back-up, stupid waste of time without it.

 

[steen]

DNA proves they are Homo Sapien

But that is very different than claiming personhood based on DNA like you so deceptively did.

Are you always switching arguments like that? Are you able to hold honest discussions on what you actually say rather than trying to evade responsibility continuously for your false claims?

 

[steen]

Well Please I am not calling a baby in a womb a plant or anything but human.

Actually, what you did was calling it an individual and a person, dishonestkly claiming that DNA was evidence of this. Sofar, you have not proven your claim and have tried for all sorts of irrelevant stuff. Conclusion is that you can NOT prove your original claims, thay your claims were false. Thanks for showing us this.

Again DNA proves this. Plants do not have hearts they are alive.

And they are not persons. Nor does a plant's DNA prove that it is an individual.

So your claim remains false.

 

[Aurora151989]

this is for mr. steen!:2wave:

http://www.wprc.org/fetal.phtml

click on more.... and it will talk about brain waves and other stuff you are refuting, this is the main website i used for my abortion paper.

be sure to click on the "more" button for each trimester

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Since Fetus's and Dead people both have DNA and are Homo Sapiens.

Back to the original debate.

What defines them as being an intellectual living being? Brainwaves such as stated in previous posts?

WE Know Babies in the womb are living human beings. (see above post)
Does a 2 yr old have the same intellect as 21 yr old? We have no idea when the brain starts functioning. We do know Brain waves can be measured as early as 8 weeks. As instrument become more sensitive I am sure we will find Brain waves at even earlier.

 

[steen]

this is for mr. steen!:2wave:

http://www.wprc.org/fetal.phtml

click on more.... and it will talk about brain waves and other stuff you are refuting, this is the main website i used for my abortion paper.

Well, I don't put much stock in CPC's as they are proven to be lying in the past and do not constitute scientific sites. They are political with the motive of preventing abortions by any means necessary, regardless of how much they lie. If you want factual info, I would advice you to use scientific sources, not political ones.


What I am "refuting" here are outright lies, falsehoods, misrepresentations and half-truths that this site has published for political gains, nothing else. I am not at fault for the unscientific, dishonest nature of your source.

 

[Aurora151989]

Well, I don't put much stock in CPC's as they are proven to be lying in the past and do not constitute scientific sites. They are political with the motive of preventing abortions by any means necessary, regardless of how much they lie. If you want factual info, I would advice you to use scientific sources, not political ones.


What I am "refuting" here are outright lies, falsehoods, misrepresentations and half-truths that this site has published for political gains, nothing else. I am not at fault for the unscientific, dishonest nature of your source.

ooops, please educate me on how to tell if my source is scientific or political

 

[steen]

WE Know Babies in the womb are living human beings. (see above post)

Another lie. We KNOW that this is what you CLAIM. It is not proven in any of your posts. Please cease the very dishonest anti-choice tactic of misrepresenting beliefs and wishful thinking as facts.

Does a 2 yr old have the same intellect as 21 yr old? We have no idea when the brain starts functioning.

We know it doesn't happen before the end of the 26th week of pregnancy, so again please cease your deceptions and misrepresentations. Your dishonesty is beginni8ng to be bothersome.

We do know Brain waves can be measured as early as 8 weeks.

We know that you are lying when you make that claim.

As instrument become more sensitive I am sure we will find Brain waves at even earlier.

It is not a matter of being able to meassure random impulses. You get the same "waves" off a plant. However, actual "brainwaves" do not occur until there is a coordinated pattern of signals between several centers of the central nervous system, which doesn't occur until such signals are transmitted throughout, whioch is at the end of the 26th week of pregnancy.

So by all means continue to spew your lies. the evidence against them have been posted.

 

[steen]

ooops, please educate me on how to tell if my source is scientific or political

If the source deal with political issues such as abortions, it likely is political (whether it is a CPC, Planned Parenthood, national right to life or NARAL). If it deals with referenced research, is from an academic institution or refer a scientific journal, then it is likely scientific.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Well, I don't put much stock in CPC's as they are proven to be lying in the past and do not constitute scientific sites. They are political with the motive of preventing abortions by any means necessary, regardless of how much they lie. If you want factual info, I would advice you to use scientific sources, not political ones.


What I am "refuting" here are outright lies, falsehoods, misrepresentations and half-truths that this site has published for political gains, nothing else. I am not at fault for the unscientific, dishonest nature of your source.

You will not offer any scientific sites as sources to refute what we have said I told you my source I am still waiting for yours. You are the one not being honest.

 

[Gibberish]

WE Know Babies in the womb are living human beings. (see above post)

You believe you mean.

Does a 2 yr old have the same intellect as 21 yr old?

Yes they do, they just lack the experience, knowledge and motor skills. There brains function the same though, unless there is an obvious disorder.

We have no idea when the brain starts functioning. We do know Brain waves can be measured as early as 8 weeks. As instrument become more sensitive I am sure we will find Brain waves at even earlier.

There is a difference between brainwaves and random firings. As Steen stated a few posts up.

 

[Aurora151989]

You will not offer any scientific sites as sources to refute what we have said I told you my source I am still waiting for yours. You are the one not being honest.

steen has already given you his sources in links, which are scientific.

:2wave: steen, this isn't scientific or political, however i think it serves my purpose
http://www.premature-baby.com/

It's a personal website done of a baby girl born at 26 weeks, and there are abortions done at 26 weeks?????

 

[steen]

You will not offer any scientific sites as sources to refute what we have said

And it is now evident that you are AGAIN LYING!

STOP LYING!
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=150772&postcount=35


So STOP LYING!

 

[steen]

steen has already given you his sources in links, which are scientific.

:2wave: steen, this isn't scientific or political, however i think it serves my purpose
http://www.premature-baby.com/

It's a personal website done of a baby girl born at 26 weeks, and there are abortions done at 26 weeks?????

It seems generally appropriate, although somewhat antropomorphizing. I didn't see a lot of factual ifo there, though.

A good source generally is the "religioustolerance.com" site, although they don't seem to good at sorting between scientific and non-scientific issues. But they do provide a nice relatively factual overview of the issue, from where you then can expand your own research.

http://www.google.com/custom?domain...336699;GFNT:223472;GIMP:223472;FORID:1;&hl=en