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Heartbeat theory

gigabitdrew

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This really does not need to be complicated.... and this answer should fit most situations...

Once they find a heartbeat then it is time to protect the child. If there is no heartbeat, then it is just organic material that has the hope of being a child.... just a little further along than an unfertilized egg.

OK... so it is hard to get around the whole life begins at conception... but besides that... it holds up nicely.
 

TiredOfLife

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This really does not need to be complicated.... and this answer should fit most situations...

Once they find a heartbeat then it is time to protect the child. If there is no heartbeat, then it is just organic material that has the hope of being a child.... just a little further along than an unfertilized egg.

OK... so it is hard to get around the whole life begins at conception... but besides that... it holds up nicely.
Is a body with a heartbeat but no higher level brain functions, meaning you can't talk to it, it has no ideas about anything at all, a person or just a body?
 

Aunt Spiker

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This really does not need to be complicated.... and this answer should fit most situations...

Once they find a heartbeat then it is time to protect the child. If there is no heartbeat, then it is just organic material that has the hope of being a child.... just a little further along than an unfertilized egg.

OK... so it is hard to get around the whole life begins at conception... but besides that... it holds up nicely.

Why is the heartbeat the critical point? Where as breathing is not? Or intentional movements are not? Or the ability to live without the mother's body is not? (and I mean - is not *to you* and others who rely on the heartbeat line)

The heart is an organ and it's designed to do a job.
 

gigabitdrew

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Aunt & Tired... it is just an easy way to draw a line in the sand... I can't give you a bunch of statistic, but when you are staring at a sonogram and you see that it has a heartbeat... at that time, then you know it is just a little person and not just fecal matter.

Also, the heartbeat falls around the 6-8 week timeframe... sometime a little earlier, and occasionally a little later... but still any and all rational decisions that need to be made about what needs to be done can surely be done prior to this time.

I'm no doctor, or scientist, or anything like that... just my 2 cents.
 
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sangha

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Just an easy way to draw a line in the sand... I can't give you a bunch of statistic, but when you are staring at a sonogram and you see that it has a heartbeat... at that time, then you know it is just a little person and not just fecal matter.

Nope

it doesn't become a little person until it's born and draws its' first breath
 

year2late

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IMHO, folks can debate all they want about when life begins as it relates to abortion but abortion will never be completely outlawed in this country.

If "pro-life" folks really are invested in preventing abortions, they would be better off in assuring the development of cheap readily available safe reliable contraception for women AND men. Accomplishing that is not only much much more possible, but more effective in preventing abortions.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Aunt & Tired... it is just an easy way to draw a line in the sand... I can't give you a bunch of statistic, but when you are staring at a sonogram and you see that it has a heartbeat... at that time, then you know it is just a little person and not just fecal matter.

Also, the heartbeat falls around the 6-8 week timeframe... sometime a little earlier, and occasionally a little later... but still any and all rational decisions that need to be made about what needs to be done can surely be done prior to this time.

I'm no doctor, or scientist, or anything like that... just my 2 cents.

Nothing about this topic is easy - that's why it's so hotly contested. You want me to consider it just because it seems 'less complicated' to you? . . . Not happening.

However, that does make me aware that perhaps there's a substantial number of people who want to draw a line and just picked something that seemed to suit their interests - just because . . . like some flippant notion when, supposedly, it's a dire and vital decision to make.
 

tererun

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This really does not need to be complicated.... and this answer should fit most situations...

Once they find a heartbeat then it is time to protect the child. If there is no heartbeat, then it is just organic material that has the hope of being a child.... just a little further along than an unfertilized egg.

OK... so it is hard to get around the whole life begins at conception... but besides that... it holds up nicely.

How about a typical compromise for the conservative moral warriors on this one. You think abortion should be ended when the heartbeats. I think abortion should be ended at the 18th birthday. So I will be Obama and you will be the republicans and I will give you 95 Percent of what you want. We will go with roe V wade and you only lose a couple of months and i lose 18 years off of my idea. Good deal for you, and I can live with it. If you want the whole thing that is just unreasonable and you really should learn to compromise on issues.
 

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Aunt & Tired... it is just an easy way to draw a line in the sand... I can't give you a bunch of statistic, but when you are staring at a sonogram and you see that it has a heartbeat... at that time, then you know it is just a little person and not just fecal matter.

Also, the heartbeat falls around the 6-8 week timeframe... sometime a little earlier, and occasionally a little later... but still any and all rational decisions that need to be made about what needs to be done can surely be done prior to this time.

I'm no doctor, or scientist, or anything like that... just my 2 cents.

Most women don't even know they are pregnant until 8-10 weeks along. Unless they are carefully tracking their ovulation and fertility cycles rigorously, the majority of women don't realize they've even skipped a period.
 

gigabitdrew

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Nothing about this topic is easy - that's why it's so hotly contested. You want me to consider it just because it seems 'less complicated' to you? . . . Not happening.

However, that does make me aware that perhaps there's a substantial number of people who want to draw a line and just picked something that seemed to suit their interests - just because . . . like some flippant notion when, supposedly, it's a dire and vital decision to make.

Flippant!? Just because I am honest about not backing up my opinion with some sudo-science? I am neither flippant, nor am I just picking something to suit my interest... the heartbeat theory is actually a well thought out compromise... even if it is not accurately articulated here. My opinion is based on the flaky notion that just because the mother is the host to another life that it gives her the right to act only in her own interest. Should women who are pregnant have to have a blood test and have the father sign off on the abortion? The woman is a potential mother to growing fecal matter that may become a child... sometimes it is necessary to protect life-forms... even undeveloped ones... and even from their parents.

The compromise is that I don't think it is right to say that life begins at conception... that their needs to be a way to draw a line in the sand and say "here is a clear easy measurable point that this should no longer be considered just fecal matter, but actually a growing baby."

It truly does not have to be such a complicated issue... we as a people over complicate things unnecessarily.... it becomes complicated because you make it so.

And yes, I am all for RU486... at least I think that's the name of it.
 

sangha

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Flippant!? Just because I am honest about not backing up my opinion with some sudo-science?

Honest is not mutually exclusive to honesty. When you justify your position with "it is just an easy way to draw a line in the sand.." without any consideration to the consequences of your position, you are certainly being flippant.

I am neither flippant, nor am I just picking something to suit my interest... the heartbeat theory is actually a well thought out compromise... even if it is not accurately articulated here. My opinion is based on the flaky notion that just because the mother is the host to another life that it gives her the right to act only in her own interest. Should women who are pregnant have to have a blood test and have the father sign off on the abortion? The woman is a potential mother to growing fecal matter that may become a child... sometimes it is necessary to protect life-forms... even undeveloped ones... and even from their parents.

And Roe v Wade recognized that there is a significant governmental interest in protecting the potential life of persons, and used both law and tradition to determine that the constitution allowed the govt to protect that life, but only beginning at viability. IOW, they used more than "it is just an easy way to draw a line in the sand.."

SCOTUS was not flippant at all. You were.
 

gigabitdrew

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Most women don't even know they are pregnant until 8-10 weeks along. Unless they are carefully tracking their ovulation and fertility cycles rigorously, the majority of women don't realize they've even skipped a period.

I don't live under a rock... I have women in my life whom I love and adore.... I have seen them grow, and age... and have heard their trials and stories... I just don't believe your statement is true... that is unless the women you are talking about are drunk, high on who knows what, and partying all the time.

Any by your argument, a woman who doesn't know that she is pregnant until week 8-10 then is more than likely just using abortion as a means to end an unwanted pregnancy... there are a lot of other ways to accomplish that Before a child starts growing in her womb.

And let me clear something up... the mother's health should always come before the unborn child's... if the mother's health is in danger, then the heartbeat theory should not apply.
 

sangha

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I don't live under a rock... I have women in my life whom I love and adore.... I have seen them grow, and age... and have heard their trials and stories... I just don't believe your statement is true... that is unless the women you are talking about are drunk, high on who knows what, and partying all the time.

Any by your argument, a woman who doesn't know that she is pregnant until week 8-10 then is more than likely just using abortion as a means to end an unwanted pregnancy... there are a lot of other ways to accomplish that Before a child starts growing in her womb.

And let me clear something up... the mother's health should always come before the unborn child's... if the mother's health is in danger, then the heartbeat theory should not apply.

Still flippant

And self-serving
 

gigabitdrew

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Honest is not mutually exclusive to honesty. When you justify your position with "it is just an easy way to draw a line in the sand.." without any consideration to the consequences of your position, you are certainly being flippant.

I will just have to disagree... and state my apologies for not articulating my considerations to the consequences... just because they were not communicated does not mean they do not exist. My apologies for not doing a good job of sharing all the information you need to make a good well informed decision on my summation of an idea.

And Roe v Wade recognized that there is a significant governmental interest in protecting the potential life of persons, and used both law and tradition to determine that the constitution allowed the govt to protect that life, but only beginning at viability. IOW, they used more than "it is just an easy way to draw a line in the sand.."

SCOTUS was not flippant at all. You were.

I did not state that anyone was flippant, only to rebuke the thought that I was because what I posted was the end result, and still in my opinion, a good compromise on the issue of abortion. It is truly my mistake for posting what I see as a answer without giving all of the information considered. I will gladly continue to provide answers as long as people have questions. I am here for you sir... allow me to share a different point of view than your own, and maybe your mind will grow.

As for Row vs Wade... I think that like all laws, they are brought up when there is a need, or want, for them to serve some purpose... some are good, some are not... but like many laws, sometimes they need to be tweaked. Our laws are made up by people with flaws... so imagine that we sometime find the need to tweak them. I am not suggesting that Row vs Wade be overturned... I am suggesting that laws be tweaked.
 

gigabitdrew

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Still flippant

And self-serving

Self-serving - Hmmm... I am looking to protect the rights of women, but at the same time protect the life of a child.... don't see it.

See, I think my compromise is a good one because both liberals and conservatives don't like it... it doesn't do enough for them... for liberals, it takes too much away from a woman's rights, and for conservatives it doesn't do enough to protect the child. You know you have a good compromise when both sides are unhappy about it.
 

TiredOfLife

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Self-serving - Hmmm... I am looking to protect the rights of women, but at the same time protect the life of a child.... don't see it.

See, I think my compromise is a good one because both liberals and conservatives don't like it... it doesn't do enough for them... for liberals, it takes too much away from a woman's rights, and for conservatives it doesn't do enough to protect the child. You know you have a good compromise when both sides are unhappy about it.
Everyone is always unhappy about abortion. It's not a happy thing, it just is.
 

sangha

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I will just have to disagree... and state my apologies for not articulating my considerations to the consequences... just because they were not communicated does not mean they do not exist. My apologies for not doing a good job of sharing all the information you need to make a good well informed decision on my summation of an idea.

I think it's great that you can recognize that you did a poor job of expressing your opinion. Well done.



I did not state that anyone was flippant, only to rebuke the thought that I was because what I posted was the end result, and still in my opinion, a good compromise on the issue of abortion. It is truly my mistake for posting what I see as a answer without giving all of the information considered. I will gladly continue to provide answers as long as people have questions. I am here for you sir... allow me to share a different point of view than your own, and maybe your mind will grow.

As for Row vs Wade... I think that like all laws, they are brought up when there is a need, or want, for them to serve some purpose... some are good, some are not... but like many laws, sometimes they need to be tweaked. Our laws are made up by people with flaws... so imagine that we sometime find the need to tweak them. I am not suggesting that Row vs Wade be overturned... I am suggesting that laws be tweaked.

No, you didn't use the word "flippant" nor did I say that you had. I was merely contrasting SCOTUS's non-flippant decision with what you posted. Partially in response to your comment:

My opinion is based on the flaky notion that just because the mother is the host to another life that it gives her the right to act only in her own interest.

Flaky isn't the exact same thing as flippant, but I'd say that they're in the same neighborhood. Even worse is that you misrepresented the reasoning SCOTUS used in Roe v Wade.

BTW, Roe v Wade has been "tweaked" in response to our increased understanding of "viability"
 

davidtaylorjr

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Nope

it doesn't become a little person until it's born and draws its' first breath

So two minutes before it is born it is not a person? I mean come on now.
 
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sangha

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Self-serving - Hmmm... I am looking to protect the rights of women, but at the same time protect the life of a child.... don't see it.

See, I think my compromise is a good one because both liberals and conservatives don't like it... it doesn't do enough for them... for liberals, it takes too much away from a woman's rights, and for conservatives it doesn't do enough to protect the child. You know you have a good compromise when both sides are unhappy about it.

By "self-serving" I didn't mean that it was necesarily good for you personally, but rather that it serves the purposes of your argument. It probably wasn't the best word to use.

But having people disagree with you doesn't mean that your position is the correct one. If you were to read Roe v Wade, you'd that the decision isn't based on what people think is right, but what powers the constitution grants the govt with respect to regulating or banning abortion. It is a well though out and reasoned balancing of the rights of individuals, and governmental interest in protecting potential life.
 

TiredOfLife

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So two minutes before it is born it is not a person? I mean come on now.
I wouldn't go with that line but the line has to be drawn. For thousands of years that has been a worthy game. Heartbeat? Quickening? Birth? Viability? Pick your poison.
 

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This really does not need to be complicated.... and this answer should fit most situations...

Once they find a heartbeat then it is time to protect the child. If there is no heartbeat, then it is just organic material that has the hope of being a child.... just a little further along than an unfertilized egg.

OK... so it is hard to get around the whole life begins at conception... but besides that... it holds up nicely.

If that's what YOU believe fine. Enjoy life and many happy returns.

However - I would strongly object to you suggesting that all other people must live their lives according to your beliefs.

How would you feel about living your life according to what a Jehovah's Witness believes? Or perhaps a Westboro Baptist's beliefs?

You as an individual can be against any and all abortion until the cows come home. Just don't expect others to follow in your footsteps on that particular road without a fight.
 

davidtaylorjr

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I wouldn't go with that line but the line has to be drawn. For thousands of years that has been a worthy game. Heartbeat? Quickening? Birth? Viability? Pick your poison.

And viability, they say that a baby inside the womb can't sustain life, well guess what, they can't outside the womb either without the resources of the mother. Should we be able to kill those babies too? The arguments are ridiculous.
 

gigabitdrew

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By "self-serving" I didn't mean that it was necesarily good for you personally, but rather that it serves the purposes of your argument. It probably wasn't the best word to use.

Understood. But isn't that what an answer does for a question? It serves the purpose of supplying a remedy to an argument.

But having people disagree with you doesn't mean that your position is the correct one. If you were to read Roe v Wade, you'd that the decision isn't based on what people think is right, but what powers the constitution grants the govt with respect to regulating or banning abortion. It is a well though out and reasoned balancing of the rights of individuals, and governmental interest in protecting potential life.

Also very true. I do realize that just because this is my position doesn't mean it is the correct one. Where Row vs Wade is now may indeed be where things need to be.

Now, as far as a decision being based on what people think is right vs what the supreme court has ruled the government has the right to regulate... I do believe that there is room for improvement on existing laws that govern the rights of women and the rights of the unborn child. I am not asking to overturn, but more precisely define the line that people take up when applying the supreme court decision.

Example: I live in Mississippi... first, don't judge, not everyone is like what you see on TV.... BUT, the republican party did push, and try and pass, a law that define life starting at conception. This would have made abortion, while still legal under certain federal guidelines... a crime committed against the unborn child under state laws.

Thankfully, it failed... but I do think there are ways, even outside of Row vs Wade, to tweak the laws that govern abortion that will protect the rights of women AND the rights of an unborn child. I don't think it has to be one way or the other.
 

Dragonfly

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And viability, they say that a baby inside the womb can't sustain life, well guess what, they can't outside the womb either without the resources of the mother. Should we be able to kill those babies too? The arguments are ridiculous.

Do you want this guy telling you what you can and can't do from a moral perspective?
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My guess is you'd say "no".

Many of us don't want this guy telling us such things either.

ens_031413_pope.jpg


And we don't think this guy should either.

www-st-takla-org___jesus-crown-of-thorns-09.jpg


But if you want to live that way have at it.

That's the beauty of "choice".

You can live according to your beliefs, and I can live according to mine.

And to be clear, I've never had to make a choice between having a child or aborting a pregnancy.
And I'm no longer capable of ever being in the position to need to make that choice.

I do however have daughters who are of child bearing age, and I don't think you or anyone else has any right to tell them what to do with their bodies or choices regarding something so personal and private.
 

TiredOfLife

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And viability, they say that a baby inside the womb can't sustain life, well guess what, they can't outside the womb either without the resources of the mother. Should we be able to kill those babies too? The arguments are ridiculous.
You need a mother? Nope, you need a caretaker. Viability is about can we take it out, cut the cord, and it will breath on its own? That's all. At that point, in this country, the state begins to have standing.
 
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