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HEALTHCARE IS ALL ABOUT WHO PAYS FOR WHAT

prometeus

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"The United States spends significantly more on healthcare than comparable countries, and yet has worse health outcomes."

Such articles lose me when they start out with such a half truth. The first part about the US spending the most on healthcare is true, however the last part about worse outcomes is a flat out lie.
Really? By what metric? Can you provide any evidence?
Any so-called bad outcome in the US compared to anywhere else is due to factors outside of the healthcare system, such as obesity, smoking, alcoholism, or a sedentary lifestyle.
Shouldn't those conditions be addressed in the healthcare system?
Technically, the most capable healthcare system on the planet is in the USA.
Only for few who can afford it.
It's just the cost that needs to be addressed, and not by a government takeover of the healthcare system.
Why don't you start by stating why "people and corporations" who do NOTHING to make anyone well make record profits.
 

jaeger19

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Answer from here: Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker




Healthcare in the US is a "racket" run by private-enterprise companies for a profit and individuals for a damn fine salary. The center-point of which are the healthcare-professionals who also earn high salaries. Yes, the doctors and nurses who are key to the profession.

According to the Medscape Physician Compensation Report, in 2018, Primary-Care Physicians in the United States earned on average $237,000, while Specialists earned $341,000.

They don't deserve the money? Well, of course in the US they deserve a more-than-decent salary for this critically key-service. Afterall, unlike my kids here in France, they went to expensive postsecondary schools for their diplomas*! Which most must pay-off once they start earning a salary.

Is that excuse good-enough. NO WAY!

Healthcare is not like lawyering. It is a key-component of our lifestyle and without it you know damn-well what can happen! If you do not agree then do tell me what other service is more important and why. Because this particular healthcare-service is critical to our lifestyle.

PS: A French friend paid his daughter's annual fee for a medical-degree at a state-run school here in France and annually that cost around $750 per year (in Euros) - not including room&board! She is now a registered professional physician.
Interesting.
So I provide a critical service...that requires considerable skill and training, not to mention natural ability.
And you want to make sure.. that instead of going into that critical service.
I should take my natural ability, and get skills and training into another service... perhaps not as critical.. that doesn;t restrict my earning potential.

Please explain.
Perhaps we should do this with teaching. That requires a lot of skill, education etc. Lets artificially lower the salaries of all educators until they can make much more at other professions.
Because.. thats the best way to get critical services. !!!!
 

jaeger19

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A few things.

First off, the French university system is far from a standard bearer of quality. Aside from one or two institutions they wouldn't compete against our most mediocre universities.

Second off, a French physician works far less and is far less productive than their US peers when compared by wRVUs, the standard method. So work harder, get paid more, foreign concept to some.

Third, only an idiot would send their kid to be a physician in the US at this point. It's a terrible job that is in decline. In the 80's it was a good gig. 90's it was fine. In the 21st century it hit the fan. Longer hours, more stress, less pay. You are seeing huge declines in the quality of students in the US medical education system. The best and the brightest are now heading to finance and tech and have been for some time.

Fourth, there is also a reason why France's economy is such an abysmal failure. State controls and regulations are a great place to start. It is also worth noting that the median household income in France is about half that of the US.
As far as the physician thing. this is spot on.
 

jaeger19

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To eat more healthily is expensive. The American poor, left out of the dream, live in food deserts where only cheap fattening sugar laden food is locally available.
This is true. Now.. in the US..the skinny people are often the wealthy ones.
 

jaeger19

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In some urban areas that is partially true, but that is also a function of local and national policy. Look at certain cities in the US that are literally allowing crime to go unchecked and wonder why all the businesses leave? Then look at SNAP allowing this crap to be bought with tax dollars? Moreover, you can choose to eat like garbage, not work out, and not manage conditions anywhere on any budget. Lots of poor people aren't obese.
Yeah.. thats not quite true. Welfare money goes into the pockets of the wealthy. A lot of that welfare is directed right into those areas. Try using a SNAP card at the local vegetable stand.
But it works well at Walmart buying a frozen pizza.
 

aociswundumho

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Yeah.. thats not quite true. Welfare money goes into the pockets of the wealthy. A lot of that welfare is directed right into those areas. Try using a SNAP card at the local vegetable stand.
But it works well at Walmart buying a frozen pizza.

Walmart sells frozen chicken breasts for $2 a pound, they sell eggs, rice, produce, etc, everything you need to eat healthy if that's what you want. But most people in the US don't want to.
 

jaeger19

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Walmart sells frozen chicken breasts for $2 a pound, they sell eggs, rice, produce, etc, everything you need to eat healthy if that's what you want. But most people in the US don't want to.
As long as you have time to prepare a meal... sure. They also sell steaks and seafood which is part of a healthy diet as well.. but that makes people mad.
So there are lots of factors involved when it comes to the poor and obesity.
 

LetsGoBrandon

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Really? By what metric? Can you provide any evidence?
The burden of proof is on the morons that claim worse outcomes
Shouldn't those conditions be addressed in the healthcare system?
How can the healthcare system cure some fat lazy beer guzzling, tobacco smoking sedentary couch potato? Bad habits sometimes lead to bad outcomes. That's on the individuals, not the healthcare system.
Only for few who can afford it.
And every time the government takes more control of healthcare, the more expensive it gets.
Why don't you start by stating why "people and corporations" who do NOTHING to make anyone well make record profits.
Ask the morons that passed the so-called Affordable Healthcare Act. They are responsible for all of the increases in health insurance costs since 2013.
 

prometeus

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The burden of proof is on the morons that claim worse outcomes
So the morons who make assertions about better outcomes have nothing.
How can the healthcare system cure some fat lazy beer guzzling, tobacco smoking sedentary couch potato?
Well if they are conservative there is simply no fixing stupid.
Bad habits sometimes lead to bad outcomes.
And a good healthcare system can help change those bad habits.
That's on the individuals, not the healthcare system.
You must be a christian.
And every time the government takes more control of healthcare, the more expensive it gets.
I guess that is another moronic assertion you can not support.
Ask the morons that passed the so-called Affordable Healthcare Act.
Yea, a really unpopular thing eh?
 

LetsGoBrandon

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So the morons who make assertions about better outcomes have nothing.
The reality is that if you take the same patient, without regard to cost, his or her chances of a good outcome are better under US healthcare then anywhere on the planet.
Well if they are conservative there is simply no fixing stupid.
Since when is Michael Moore conservative?
And a good healthcare system can help change those bad habits.
How? Make smoking, drinking, and a sedentary lifestyle illegal?
You must be a christian.
Are you bigoted against Christians?
I guess that is another moronic assertion you can not support.
I have no idea what your age is, however I am old enough to remember when healthcare was affordable. I barely noticed the copayments or my share of the health insurance premiums deducted from my paychecks. Ultimately the HMOs blew that up and the so-called Affordable Healthcare Act made it ten times worse
Yea, a really unpopular thing eh?
Yes, very unpopular.
 

prometeus

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The reality is that if you take the same patient, without regard to cost, his or her chances of a good outcome are better under US healthcare then anywhere on the planet.
You seem, unsurprisingly, unable to understand that individual outcomes for a few does not make a better system.
Since when is Michael Moore conservative?
SInce about the same time as Trump.
How? Make smoking, drinking, and a sedentary lifestyle illegal?
It is called education and guidance, clearly not something you are a promoter of.
Are you bigoted against Christians?
Only against hypocrite morons who pretend to be.
I have no idea what your age is, however I am old enough to remember when healthcare was affordable.
I am about even with dirt and I too remember that. Then quest for profits came from people who never healed anyone and the wellbeing of society took a back seat.
Yes, very unpopular.
Yet everything point to the opposite.
 

bave

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I am about even with dirt and I too remember that. Then quest for profits came from people who never healed anyone and the wellbeing of society took a back seat.

So I take it you are a physician then? What is your experience in helping people manage their lifestyle choices and poor chronic issue management?
 

LetsGoBrandon

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You seem, unsurprisingly, unable to understand that individual outcomes for a few does not make a better system.
You seem unsurprisingly unable get the point. We both agree that healthcare in the US is prohibitively expensive. My point is that without regard to expense, any given patient has a better chance of a good outcome with treatment in the US then anywhere else.
SInce about the same time as Trump.
Yawn......
It is called education and guidance, clearly not something you are a promoter of.
You are projecting. The reality is that I am all for promoting a healthy lifestyle, however it cannot be forced. There will still be an enormous number of sedentary beer guzzling chain smoking, vaping couch potatoes.
Only against hypocrite morons who pretend to be.
More projection.
I am about even with dirt and I too remember that. Then quest for profits came from people who never healed anyone and the wellbeing of society took a back seat.
So you are an anti-capitalist and you hate profits being made from providing healthcare. You are thinking about healthcare emotionally rather then logically. I am all for healthcare providers making profits. it leads to more available healthcare in the long run. Example. I live near a city with a population around 190,000. If I needed an MRI test, there are five facilities within ten miles of my house where I can quickly get one. No waiting list. Even without an emergency, I could get one tomorrow. Under a not for profit healthcare system, I would be lucky if their were 5 MRI units in the entire state, as government bean counters would be making the purchasing decisions.
Yet everything point to the opposite.
Some dubious opinion polls, maybe. Personally, I don't know anyone who favors the ACA. And I certainly do not. It ran me out of the private healthcare system.
 

danielpalos

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I make a motion to solve this dilemma via equal protection of the laws using existing legal and physical infrastructure.
 

prometeus

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You seem unsurprisingly unable get the point. We both agree that healthcare in the US is prohibitively expensive. My point is that without regard to expense, any given patient has a better chance of a good outcome with treatment in the US then anywhere else.
An irrelevant point. Good healthcare should benefit ALL members of society.
Yawn.....
Reality
You are projecting. The reality is that I am all for promoting a healthy lifestyle, however it cannot be forced.
But it can be achieved through guidance and education and should not be forced.
There will still be an enormous number of sedentary beer guzzling chain smoking, vaping couch potatoes.
Exceptions will always exist.
So you are an anti-capitalist and you hate profits being made from providing healthcare.
No, not at all. I am for profits, the more the better, but not at the expense of someone's well being.
There is no need for anyone to make enormous profits when they do not contribute ANYTHING to healing or wellbeing.
You are thinking about healthcare emotionally rather then logically.
No, practically. A health workforce is more productive and thus can generate more profits.
I am all for healthcare providers making profits.
Providers? Such as doctors and all the support personell?
it leads to more available healthcare in the long run.
As evidenced by so many hospital closures?
Example. I live near a city with a population around 190,000. If I needed an MRI test, there are five facilities within ten miles of my house where I can quickly get one. No waiting list. Even without an emergency, I could get one tomorrow.
That is a good thing? Why do you believe that that would change if insurance companies did not rape the public?
Under a not for profit healthcare system, I would be lucky if their were 5 MRI units in the entire state, as government bean counters would be making the purchasing decisions.
There is not evidence for any of that.
Some dubious opinion polls, maybe. Personally, I don't know anyone who favors the ACA. And I certainly do not. It ran me out of the private healthcare system.
Your experience or opinion does not change reality.
 

LetsGoBrandon

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An irrelevant point. Good healthcare should benefit ALL members of society.
I agree. Changes must be made. However the ACA is not getting it done. It is an insanely stupid and harmful piece of legislation. Single Payer would be even worse
But it can be achieved through guidance and education and should not be forced.
Yet there will still be a significant number of people with bad habits.
Exceptions will always exist.
See above,
No, not at all. I am for profits, the more the better, but not at the expense of someone's well being.
Healthcare is commerce like anything else. It's never free.
There is no need for anyone to make enormous profits when they do not contribute ANYTHING to healing or wellbeing.
If you are referring to the Health Insurance providers, then you should be agreeing with me. They gladly went along with the ACA because it came with a captive customer base. And hey are making enormous profits. They no longer have to compete for business. That's why cost cost of health insurance exploded when the bill took effect.
No, practically. A health workforce is more productive and thus can generate more profits.
????
Providers? Such as doctors and all the support personell?
And the insurance providers as well. Why would anyone sell insurance if they cannot make a profit?
As evidenced by so many hospital closures?
You can thank the ACA for that.
That is a good thing? Why do you believe that that would change if insurance companies did not rape the public?

There is not evidence for any of that.
Really? The UK with their single payer system has only 5.9 MRI units per million people. The US has 40.44 per million people.
Your experience or opinion does not change reality.
Perhaps some day, you will wake up to the fact that your democrat party major losses in the 2010 and 2014 midterms were primarily due to the unpopularity of the ACA.
 

Lloyd Christmas

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Yeah this is made up nonsense

I find it funny for a source they linked to google.com. Not even trying to hide their trolling.

I always thought jokingly that that's how they argue, here go find my argument for me by linking to google. This one seriously did it LOL
 

JasperL

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People here don't even want to try and look things up. They pull the infantile moves of "prove it" then no matter what source, what quality of data they either continue to nonsensically argue or they just disappear.

What specific point do you disagree with and on what basis?
If you want to make broad claims and assert them as fact, the burden is on you to provide your evidence. It's not our job to spend a half hour, or even 5 minutes, looking for sources for your claims.
 

bave

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If you want to make broad claims and assert them as fact, the burden is on you to provide your evidence. It's not our job to spend a half hour, or even 5 minutes, looking for sources for your claims.

I have seen this game played out time and time again. You post a source and people will simply ignore it. People here aren't actually interested in having a debate, they want to scream at people that disagree with them while seeking a circle jerk from their echo chamber. I have literally had a debate here for weeks where someone wouldn't believe clear as day sources from Wash Po, NY Times, or the OECD.

At this point I just chime in and call out lies when I see them, if people want to research it or have a debate we can.
 

prometeus

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Changes must be made.
Indeed.
However the ACA is not getting it done.
It is not, it is just a bit better than before.
Single Payer would be even worse
Actually it IS the answer.
Healthcare is commerce like anything else.
It has been made into it whereas it should not be. In an advanced and civilized society, the wellbeing of our fellow man should not be commerce.
It's never free.
Nothing is free, but it should neither be the financial ruin of people.
If you are referring to the Health Insurance providers, then you should be agreeing with me.
No, I do not. They have no place or purpose in this.
Sorry for the typos.
I am a practical thinker. A healthy workforce is more productive and thus more profitable.
And the insurance providers as well. Why would anyone sell insurance if they cannot make a profit?
They should not sell it.
The UK with their single payer system has only 5.9 MRI units per million people. The US has 40.44 per million people.
Where do you think our machines would go?
Perhaps some day, you will wake up to the fact that your democrat party
It is not my party. Do not make baseless assumptions.
 

LetsGoBrandon

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It is not, it is just a bit better than before.

Actually it IS the answer.

It has been made into it whereas it should not be. In an advanced and civilized society, the wellbeing of our fellow man should not be commerce.
Without the healthcare industry acting as commerce, we would be beholden to government bean counters making all of the healthcare decisions. We would end up with limited and rationed healthcare.
Nothing is free, but it should neither be the financial ruin of people.
Agreed. Reform is needed, however it must be market based.
No, I do not. They have no place or purpose in this.
So no health insurance??????
Sorry for the typos.
I am a practical thinker. A healthy workforce is more productive and thus more profitable.
Agreed.
They should not sell it.
Why not?
Where do you think our machines would go?
The majority of them would ultimately go away as the government bean counters would not continue to finance them.
 

danielpalos

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Equal protection of the laws is required from our Constitutional form of Government. Enabling greater market based participation can better enable general tax revenue generation from more persons.
 

JasperL

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I have seen this game played out time and time again. You post a source and people will simply ignore it. People here aren't actually interested in having a debate, they want to scream at people that disagree with them while seeking a circle jerk from their echo chamber. I have literally had a debate here for weeks where someone wouldn't believe clear as day sources from Wash Po, NY Times, or the OECD.

At this point I just chime in and call out lies when I see them, if people want to research it or have a debate we can.
That's fine, but "people" are not obligated to accept baseless assertions as fact. Just for example, you judged the productivity of a French doctor versus U.S. based on wRVUs. I'm not sure where to find that data for the French (I did look, but CMS doesn't have data on foreign doctors that I could find), but why is that a good metric for quality healthcare? Would you as a patient rather have 5 minutes or 15 if you have a problem? France has depending on the source roughly twice the number of doctors per capita, they cover everyone, pay less than we do, and get great results. I don't see the evidence their system is inferior.

Then you tell us the quality of new doctors is crap because the best and brightest want to be in finance or tech, but then if that's true (I'd think at best it's only partially true, and who knows how you judged this), how is that evidence our system is so much better? You use RVUs to judge, then whine that in the U.S. there's more hours, stress and lower pay, to hit the RVUs in part.... Our doctors are paid a lot more, in part because the costs of medical school, then years of residency making crap pay working 100 hours a week leaves a big debt to pay off. Is that good or bad? Is it the decade post college before a doctor makes a comfortable living that discourages some hot shots who can make good money in tech a week into their first job?

Etc. I don't see a coherent comparison of one system to the other anywhere.
 

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In some urban areas that is partially true, but that is also a function of local and national policy. Look at certain cities in the US that are literally allowing crime to go unchecked and wonder why all the businesses leave? Then look at SNAP allowing this crap to be bought with tax dollars? Moreover, you can choose to eat like garbage, not work out, and not manage conditions anywhere on any budget. Lots of poor people aren't obese.
It's not about whose fault it is, but what exists in reality. And the national policy subsidizes crap foods like wheat and corn, and corn sweeteners, and so make those goods incredibly cheap per calorie versus a healthy diet of meat, fruit, veggies. So if you don't have much money and you want to feed your family as cheaply as possible, what do you buy? You sure as hell don't buy whole foods, but crap processed stuff that's loaded with highly refined carbs, seed oils and sugar, all of them subsidized, and all of them contributing to the obesity epidemic, and a diet that our nutrition experts tell us is actually pretty healthy. Gosh, wonder why that is? Oh, right, a few massive companies control the vast majority of processed food and so wield a great deal of power.

And then the advice to the obese, poor or not, is CICO, and so eat less, move more, but that fails just about 100% of the obese, so the advice is given knowing it will fail, and then we all blame the obese for not succeeding following advice that fails roughly 100% of the obese. They're ALL apparently weak willed slobs....
 
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