Hawaii Mandates Contraception Education, Conservative Christians Sue

[Scrabaholic]

Last week Hawaii Gov. David Ige signed a law into effect requiring pregnancy-care centers inform clients about all available reproductive health services, including access to contraception and abortion.
Conservative Christian groups are not happy.
A day after the law took effect, the Alliance Defending Freedom filed a lawsuit on behalf of A Place for Women in Waipoi, a church-operated crisis pregnancy center, and five other Hawaiian centers affiliated with the National Institute of Family and Life Advocates.
They argue that the new law infringes on the centers’ rights to free speech and exercise of religion.

Hawaii Mandates Contraception Education, Conservative Christians Sue

====================================================

Free speech? Gee, what about the laws in some states forcing doctors to give patients false info on abortion? ie. that medical abortion can be reversed. What about *their* free speech and freedom of religion? (there is a commandment against bearing false witness, namely lying)

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Last week Hawaii Gov. David Ige signed a law into effect requiring pregnancy-care centers inform clients about all available reproductive health services, including access to contraception and abortion.
Conservative Christian groups are not happy.
A day after the law took effect, the Alliance Defending Freedom filed a lawsuit on behalf of A Place for Women in Waipoi, a church-operated crisis pregnancy center, and five other Hawaiian centers affiliated with the National Institute of Family and Life Advocates.
They argue that the new law infringes on the centers’ rights to free speech and exercise of religion.

Hawaii Mandates Contraception Education, Conservative Christians Sue

====================================================

Free speech? Gee, what about the laws in some states forcing doctors to give patients false info on abortion? ie. that medical abortion can be reversed. What about *their* free speech and freedom of religion? (there is a commandment against bearing false witness, namely lying)

Social conservatives are a pox on our country,

 

[ludin]

Last week Hawaii Gov. David Ige signed a law into effect requiring pregnancy-care centers inform clients about all available reproductive health services, including access to contraception and abortion.
Conservative Christian groups are not happy.
A day after the law took effect, the Alliance Defending Freedom filed a lawsuit on behalf of A Place for Women in Waipoi, a church-operated crisis pregnancy center, and five other Hawaiian centers affiliated with the National Institute of Family and Life Advocates.
They argue that the new law infringes on the centers’ rights to free speech and exercise of religion.

Hawaii Mandates Contraception Education, Conservative Christians Sue

====================================================

Free speech? Gee, what about the laws in some states forcing doctors to give patients false info on abortion? ie. that medical abortion can be reversed. What about *their* free speech and freedom of religion? (there is a commandment against bearing false witness, namely lying)

yep it is. the bill is a direct violation of the 1st amendment.
as some of this would violate the centers religious beliefs and or practices in how they run their centers.

the government can make recommendations but they cannot mandate it and or they have to have religious exceptions.

 

[molten_dragon]

Sounds like a great law. If you don't want to dispense all relevant medical advice, don't start a business that offers medical services.

 

[year2late]

I have a question.

Do these centers receive any government funding?

 

[ludin]

I have a question.

Do these centers receive any government funding?

from what I understand and can find it is all donations with about 3 or 4 churches that support it.
they do not have a financial disclosure on their website.

that was aplaceforwomen.

 

[ludin]

Sounds like a great law. If you don't want to dispense all relevant medical advice, don't start a business that offers medical services.

that is simply not true and frankly unconstitutional which is why they are suing.
they have a very good case as well. of course it will go to the SCOTUS.

which they will rule against it like they have all the other times that government has tried to force
religious organizations to violate their religious practices.

 

[Scrabaholic]

that is simply not true and frankly unconstitutional which is why they are suing.
they have a very good case as well. of course it will go to the SCOTUS.

which they will rule against it like they have all the other times that government has tried to force
religious organizations to violate their religious practices.

If they can't give the woman all her options, perhaps they should get out of the medical business. Why should abortion clinics have to list all her options but not these pregnancy centres?

Also, in some jurisdictions, doctors' rights to free speech and religion are being infringed when they have to, by law, tell the patient certain info that is not medically accurate.

 

[Removable Mind]

If they can't give the woman all her options, perhaps they should get out of the medical business. Why should abortion clinics have to list all her options but not these pregnancy centres?

Also, in some jurisdictions, doctors' rights to free speech and religion are being infringed when they have to, by law, tell the patient certain info that is not medically accurate.

Here is a little background on this "medical organization":

The National Institute of Family and Life Advocates (NIFLA) was founded in 1993 by attorney Thomas A. Glessner, and supported by major leaders in the prolife movement. NIFLA's mission is to provide legal advice, counsel, education and training to prolife Pregnancy Resource Centers (PRCs) and Pregnancy Medical Clinics (PMCs).

Currently, NIFLA has over 1,430 PRC members across the country. Of these, more than 1,000 operate as PMCs — licensed medical clinics which provide ultrasound confirmation of pregnancy to abortion at risk mothers.

At the time of NIFLA's founding, serious political and legal attacks were being mounted by the abortion industry against PRCs/PMCs across the nation. In order to protect their life-affirming work, NIFLA developed legal guidelines to help PRCs /PMCs understand the necessary legal requirements to operate. In addition, NIFLA developed legal guidelines to enable PRCs to convert operations into licensed medical clinics and provide to their clientele medical services, such as ultrasound. By converting to medical clinic status, PMCs utilize the powerful tool of ultrasound to confirm pregnancy for abortion-minded and abortion-vulnerable patients and to educate them about options.

NIFLA has led and organized resistance to politically motivated legislative efforts in Oregon, Maryland, Washington, New York and Virginia that would have been extremely harmful to the operations of the PRCs/PMCs if passed. The legal guidelines developed and promoted by NIFLA have served to provide guidance to PRCs/PMCs, enabling them to avoid the legal pitfalls that would arise from such enacted legislation.

In 1998, NIFLA developed the Institute in Limited Obstetric Ultrasound — a professional course taught nine times a year. To date, more than 4,000 nurses and other licensed healthcare professionals have been trained in the medical protocols of limited obstetric ultrasound in the PMC setting. In addition, NIFLA provides online training in ultrasound imaging through its Physicians Online Ultrasound Training Course.

In 2001, NIFLA established The Life Choice Project (TLC), where a PRC is given all the tools to covert to medical clinic status. Through TLC, NIFLA has directly presided over the conversion of hundreds of PRCs into licensed medical clinics.

Another shady pro-life organization. But once this organization made the decision to convert its operations into medical providers - they now must play under different State statutory requirements.

 

[pinqy]

yep it is. the bill is a direct violation of the 1st amendment.
as some of this would violate the centers religious beliefs and or practices in how they run their centers.

the government can make recommendations but they cannot mandate it and or they have to have religious exceptions.

Ok, the Act basically just requires that all pregnancy clinics post and make available the following:
"Hawaii has public programs that provide immediate free or low-cost access to comprehensive family planning services, including, but not limited to, all FDA-approved methods of contraception and pregnancy-related services for eligible women. To apply online for medical insurance coverage, that will cover the full range of family planning and prenatal care services, go to mybenefits.hawaii.gov" SB. 501

Is there a public interest in this requirement? Yes. Pregnancy is a time=sensitive matter and not all women are aware of the state resources. I'm not sure why anyone would need a religious exemption for that.

 

[year2late]

I think they likely have a good case.

But I have to wonder if there is a better work around.

The bottom line is that there is a lot of deception in these clinics. It is one thing to say exactly who you are and what you do. It is another thing to give inaccurate information and not present accurate options,

I have big issues with non medical people doing ultrasounds before they actually get medical care. The ultrasound is easily perceived by a vulnerable patient as an indication of medical expertise.

But like I said, they may have a case about the dissemination of information not in accordance with their beliefs....but I think there should be some better work around to make sure they are advertised clearly and they give accurate information.



If you read through some of the stuff on presented on their site through testimonials, you are lead to believe that infertility and breast cancer have direct causality - how would one even know that? It is one thing to show statistics, it is another to present cases as fact. I get that if a woman had a severe (not simple)infection you might know that abortion caused your infertility...but breast cancer? Seriously....how would you know.

I think these centers ultimately delay women getting to actual medical care - which they will need whether or not they want to abort.

I want these centers to be accountable for accurate health information. I do not want these centers to give direct or indirect information that is not medically accurate.

 

[molten_dragon]

that is simply not true and frankly unconstitutional which is why they are suing.

Don't call your business a medical service provider if you aren't willing to dispense the relevant medical advice. That's fraud.

 

[year2late]

Don't call your business a medical service provider if you aren't willing to dispense the relevant medical advice. That's fraud.

Not just relevant...but accurate.

They depend heavily on testimonials....On page one of their testimonials you get woman that clearly tells you she became infertile because of an abortion and got breast cancer because of an abortion. If you are their to present options, you need to clearly reflect risks and benefits.

They should present themselves first and foremost as a religious organization that wants to give spiritual support to maintain a pregnancy. Identifying yourself as a clinic that does pregnancy tests and ultrasounds is deceptive.

 

[ludin]

Don't call your business a medical service provider if you aren't willing to dispense the relevant medical advice. That's fraud.

they are dispensing relevant medical advice. just not the advice you think they should give.
their website even states that they are not a medical facility.

they do have qualified people there to do pregnancy council etc ...

 

[Removable Mind]

The following are testimonies on the website of the religious organization from women who have had already had abortions:

A Personal Abortion Account


A Saline Induced Abortion

The needle carrying the saline solution was inserted into my abdomen. The first thing I began to notice was violent movement in my womb. I only found out later that it was my child franticly kicking from the pain of being burned alive!

The reality of what was taking place was beginning to sink in. I was afraid to ask what was happening, I was afraid of the answer! I began to realize that I had made a huge mistake! One of such great magnitude that I thought I would become hysterical and lose control however, instinctively I knew it was too late! I couldn’t stop it! There was no going back; the process to kill my baby was already in motion.

I was not prepared for the visual massacre of seeing my baby burned and dead!

I remember the nurse coming in. Without a word, she scooped up my dead baby and quickly left the room. I can only conclude that she didn’t want me to gaze too long upon my child’s burned and lifeless body!

I don’t remember much more after seeing my baby lying dead between my legs I can’t tell you what happened after that, I don’t know how much longer I was there, or even how I got home.


A true account given by Pamela

A Personal Abortion Account


A Late Term Abortion

At the age of 14 I didn't know the typical signs of pregnancy and so when a bunch of weird things started happening to my body I didn't quite know what was going on. My pediatrician told me I was 5 months pregnant. My parents and I decided abortion was the best way to "rid our lives of this problem." We all thought abortion would erase the situation I had gotten myself in and we would go on living life the way it was.

That was not the case. I can still, 19 years later, vividly remember the 5 day process of being slowly and painfully dilated, of laying on an examination table and feeling the baby inside me frantically demand my attention right before the abortionists needle ended her life, and feeling utterly alone as I was forced into labor, delivering my baby's lifeless body.

No, life sadly was never the same. I hated myself. I tried to numb my pain in anyway I could find, drugs, alcohol, food, meaningless relationships, but nothing took away the deep darkness that overwhelmed my soul. My parents saw that I was suffering and put me in therapy. I was put on several different medications but nothing worked. I still wanted to die.

Finally one therapist told me she thought I was suffering from PTSD from the abortion. I told her it was 10 years ago and that I was over it. She persuaded me to go to a Rachel's Vineyard retreat and that weekend saved my life. I allowed myself to feel the forgiveness God had been showing me all along. His light entered my soul and I felt overwhelming relief. He changed my life. I met a wonderful Christian man, had two beautiful children and no longer feel the empty darkness that consumed my life before I found forgiveness through Christ. Storybook ending? Not quite.

I will never forget what I did to my first child. I am still brought to my knees in tears at times when I remember the pain I caused her. In response to Gods grace and for my daughters spirit I will be silent no more.

A true account given by Kelly

If you are considering abortion, please give us a call to discuss your options. (808) 678-3991


http://www.oahupregnancycenter.com/Testimonials/Abortion_Experiences/index.html

Resorting to this type of tactic to use these testimonies to scare women out of having an abortion is disgusting.

They forgot to add the following at the bottom of these testimonials:

"Abortion Results Not Typical. Few Women Experience the Outcomes Stated in These Accounts."

And YES this religious organization performs ultrasounds on pregnant women. Why? They should be referring these women to medical providers qualified to accurately review and assess what the images yield and if they reveal any abnormalities that need the attention of a qualified physician.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Social conservatives are a pox on our country,

Goldwater was well aware and warned of this, back when "conservatives" were, well, .... conservatives.

 

[Removable Mind]

they are dispensing relevant medical advice. just not the advice you think they should give.
their website even states that they are not a medical facility.

they do have qualified people there to do pregnancy council etc ...

If they don't have actual certified or licensed medical providers at the specific religious women's center then there is a significant chance these women don't get actual medical advice. Consequently, giving true medical advice would be prohibited by law for this specific women's center.

Religious/Spiritual counseling isn't the same as counseling from a Licensed Professional Councelor, Psychologist, or Social Worker. In fact, these professional don't give medical advice.

An OB-GYN is qualified. Family MD practioners are qualified. Some trained Nurse Practioners are qualified.

It's my opinion this center is as bad for pregnant women as gay conversion therapy organizations are for gay persons.

And I seriously doubt that the women's center is providing "all of the relevant forms of information regarding all of the possible options". They don't have to advocate for abortion - but they should provide truthful information about abortion.

 

[year2late]

they are dispensing relevant medical advice. just not the advice you think they should give.
their website even states that they are not a medical facility.

they do have qualified people there to do pregnancy council etc ...

They are not. They are giving spiritual/religious advice to pregnant women. They are not giving well rounded advice.

What if a 48 year old diabetic with heart disease came in pregnant.... would she be treated the same? Be honest.

They are giving advice without regard to the mother's situation or well being.

 

[AGENT J]

Last week Hawaii Gov. David Ige signed a law into effect requiring pregnancy-care centers inform clients about all available reproductive health services, including access to contraception and abortion.
Conservative Christian groups are not happy.
A day after the law took effect, the Alliance Defending Freedom filed a lawsuit on behalf of A Place for Women in Waipoi, a church-operated crisis pregnancy center, and five other Hawaiian centers affiliated with the National Institute of Family and Life Advocates.
They argue that the new law infringes on the centers’ rights to free speech and exercise of religion.

Hawaii Mandates Contraception Education, Conservative Christians Sue

====================================================

Free speech? Gee, what about the laws in some states forcing doctors to give patients false info on abortion? ie. that medical abortion can be reversed. What about *their* free speech and freedom of religion? (there is a commandment against bearing false witness, namely lying)

LMAO .. .since no rights are violated they will lose . .

 

[ludin]

If they don't have actual certified or licensed medical providers at the specific religious women's center then there is a significant chance these women don't get actual medical advice. Consequently, giving true medical advice would be prohibited by law for this specific women's center.

Religious/Spiritual counseling isn't the same as counseling from a Licensed Professional Councelor, Psychologist, or Social Worker. In fact, these professional don't give medical advice.

An OB-GYN is qualified. Family MD practioners are qualified. Some trained Nurse Practioners are qualified.

It's my opinion this center is as bad for pregnant women as gay conversion therapy organizations are for gay persons.

And I seriously doubt that the women's center is providing "all of the relevant forms of information regarding all of the possible options". They don't have to advocate for abortion - but they should provide truthful information about abortion.

they are licensed to help with pregnancies etc...
they have to have the proper recognition from the state.

they still have to follow state regulations and have people who have qualifications.
they don't have to mention abortion at all.

 

[ludin]

They are not. They are giving spiritual/religious advice to pregnant women. They are not giving well rounded advice.
What if a 48 year old diabetic with heart disease came in pregnant.... would she be treated the same? Be honest.
They are giving advice without regard to the mother's situation or well being.

so you went there and have proof that they are doing that?
making up stuff is well not a good platform for an argument.

regardless of that the state overstepped it's bounds here. they cannot tell a private religious organization to violate their rights or beliefs and that is what
the state is doing.

 

[year2late]

so you went there and have proof that they are doing that?
making up stuff is well not a good platform for an argument.

regardless of that the state overstepped it's bounds here. they cannot tell a private religious organization to violate their rights or beliefs and that is what
the state is doing.

I asked a question. I did not assume. I asked if a 48 year old diabetic with heart issues went in, would they be given the similar counselling to a 20 year old healthy woman?

It is a very valid question..

What do yo think they would say?

 

[cpwill]

Last week Hawaii Gov. David Ige signed a law into effect requiring pregnancy-care centers inform clients about all available reproductive health services, including access to contraception and abortion.
Conservative Christian groups are not happy.
A day after the law took effect, the Alliance Defending Freedom filed a lawsuit on behalf of A Place for Women in Waipoi, a church-operated crisis pregnancy center, and five other Hawaiian centers affiliated with the National Institute of Family and Life Advocates.
They argue that the new law infringes on the centers’ rights to free speech and exercise of religion.

Hawaii Mandates Contraception Education, Conservative Christians Sue

====================================================

Free speech? Gee, what about the laws in some states forcing doctors to give patients false info on abortion? ie. that medical abortion can be reversed. What about *their* free speech and freedom of religion? (there is a commandment against bearing false witness, namely lying)

Good on the churches; here's hoping this effort to limit access to care for women by forcing providers out fails.



Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

 

[cpwill]

Sounds like a great law. If you don't want to dispense all relevant medical advice, don't start a business that offers medical services.

Yeah. Who do those Catholics think they are, trying to serve the poor.

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[year2late]

I ask for an honest opinion.

A 48 year old pregnant woman with diabetes and heart disease comes into the center. Will she be treated the same as a healthy 20 year old pregnant woman.