Have in essence the Trump followers given him permission to lie at will?

[iguanaman]

I think Trump loyalists, Trump partisans, will believe any lie that he says, just as Obama loyalist did and continue to do. I can't speak for anyone else, although not a Trump supporter per se (I'm just against all the anti-Trumpists, the absurd rhetoric and tactics that are used against him), I believe the truth and I don't believe the lie, naturally.

What I think everyone must understand is that the amount of lies is not what we should be concerned with; it it the gravity of the lie itself--how much of an impact it has on our day-to-day lives. For example, when Obama said, "If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan," that's a lie that fundamentally affects the lives of many Americans. Trump lying about how big his inaugural crowd was, for example, is trivial. It does not affect the day-to-day lives of any American, really.

Why is it that the only "lie" ever mentioned from Obama is the one about Obamacare? It is a poor example considering the he had no control over who gets to keep their plan or doctor and no President ever does. That decision is purely made by the insurers. Did you actually think he was responsible for making that decision? What he meant by that is that is that nothing in the ACA prevents insurers from allowing you to keep your plan/doctor and that is true. There were "grandfather" statutes put in to allow that but many insurers did not use them. You must be able to find some other more believable lie to use can't you? Trump has over 6000 of them to choose from and a lot of them are real doosies.

 

[Xyce]

Why is it that the only "lie" ever mentioned from Obama is the one about Obamacare? It is a poor example considering the he had no control over who gets to keep their doctor and no President ever does. That decision is purely made by the insurers. Did you think actually he was responsible? What he meant by that is that nothing in the ACA prevents insurers from allowing you to keep your doctor and that is true.

How do you know what he meant? Can you read his mind? Unless you have proof of what he meant, we must accept what he said. Let's keep the metaphysics out of this discussion, please.

And that's the only lie I need to mention. I can mention more, but I was making the point that the volume of lies is not what we should be considering. We should be considering the gravity of the lies. How it actually affects Americans. How, for example, does Trump lying about his crowd size affect you? Now if you were one of those Americans who lost their health care plan, Obama's lie did, in fact, affect you.

Can you, please, stop playing logical gymnastics for Obama. As you've seen, I will critique Trump. I will point out when he lies. I will point out when his partisans accept it as gospel. Why don't you point out Obama's lies? Why are you trying to engage me in this twisted game of logic of ignoring Obama's words and focusing on his intent, as if you actually know what he meant.

 

[Captain America]

Is it too early to start a "Liar's Pool?"

How many baldface lies will Comrade Trump tell tonight on National T.V.?

10-20?
20-30?
30-40?

More?

The fact-checkers are laying in wait, fact-sheets in hand.

The democrats aren't even going to wait until the steam rises off the bull**** before they pounce on the lies.

And it won't even matter. :coffeepap

Most folks already expect Trump to lie because, well, you know. Trump gon' do what he do. Most people will not be surprised by anything he comes up with and most likely won't believe anything he says, fact-checkers or not. If they even watch at all it will be for entertainment value.


The Trump fans, deep down inside, yeah sure. They know he's lying. They might not admit it but they really aren't THAT stupid. They probably even know professional wrestling is staged and rehearsed. But they will love Comrade Trump anyways and if his horse**** lies pisses off some of you librul, democRAT, snowflakes, well, then it's all worth it. Make America hate again. oke

Popcorn anyone?

 

[Xyce]

Is it too early to start a "Liar's Pool?"

How many baldface lies will Comrade Trump tell tonight on National T.V.?

10-20?
20-30?
30-40?

More?

The fact-checkers are laying in wait, fact-sheets in hand.

The democrats aren't even going to wait until the steam rises off the bull**** before they pounce on the lies.

It it won't even matter.

Most folks expect Trump to lie because, well, you know. Trump gon' do what he do. Most people will not be surprised by anything he comes up with and most likely won't believe anything he says. If they even watch at all it will be for entertainment value.

The Trump fans, deep down insided, yeah, they know he's lying. They aren't THAT stupid. But they love him anyways and if his horse**** lies pisses off you librul, democRAT snowflakes, well, then it's worth it. Make America hate again.

 

[jaeger19]

Trum acording to some estimates has lied over 600 times between his inauguration and the mid term elections. even when admitting his lies, Trumpsters just say we look at what he does and not what he says. The problem being is that many of his followers actually believe the lies he tells, which is dangerous for the country. So has in essence have the Trump followers given permission for Trump to lie at will?

Trump never needed permission. He was elected on his willingness to lie repeatedly and his followers love it.

 

[iguanaman]

This lie actually affected the lives of Americans.

Insurers decide what plans to keep and what doctors to use and always have. Obama could not and did not change that. He also did not throw anyone off their plan, the insurers did.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

I am a Truth Teller myself and I am with Jordan Peterson that the nub of the reason that The West Is Dying is that there is not enough truth so this is important......HOWEVER.....most of the people who are seen claiming that Trumps lying and BS Routine is an existential threat to the nation have long been prolific liars themselves (and they demonstrate their immorality in a multitude of other ways as well) , and where Trump is involved they even ramp up their lying.

At this point this routine is comedy.

Your posts are a fun read! :2rofll:

 

[MrShangles]

Lets see, he said in his speeches that he would build a wall and that Mexico would pay for it. Not once, but hundreds of times and still says it. So the idea that somehow wew misinterpreted his promise is bullsh*t*. All of the rest of those so called promsiis have hurt this country, each and every one. So I would not brag about him keeping those promises. And his keeping his promise of moving our embacy to Jerusalem has just about killed any chance of us ever making a deal in the Middle East. His canceling trade deals have lead other countries to just go around the US and make trade deals without us. His trade deal with Mexico and Canada is basically NAFTA with updates. Canceling the Paris accord has made us the laughing stock of the world as has Trump's stupid actions. And opening up parts of our country for oil and gas exploration was already started under Obama where the country went from an importer to an exporter of energy. And the pipeline has already leaked and there will continue to be leaks. It will eventually make the water table where it leaks undrinkable. And his tariff war has lead to farmers going broke and countries finding other sources for goods rather than the US. And now the economy. Many experts are saying trump's actions are leading to a recession, which of course he will blame on others, as he blames everything bad on others. Need i go on, well cutting regulations, that will eventually lead to dirty water and air. Seems interesting that China is finally trying to clean up its environment and now we are going back to the very things that hurt ours.

You’re to far gone, maybe you should move from this terrible country.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Trum acording to some estimates has lied over 600 times between his inauguration and the mid term elections. even when admitting his lies, Trumpsters just say we look at what he does and not what he says. The problem being is that many of his followers actually believe the lies he tells, which is dangerous for the country. So has in essence have the Trump followers given permission for Trump to lie at will?

You have to see the world through their extreme partisan view. In their view liberals are basically the Soviets and Stalin. Imagine that you had to choose between Trump and Stalin. Would you really care about Trump's lying if the alternative was Stalin?

Conservatives have vilified liberals to far greater extent than liberals have vilified conservatives. How can I measure the degree of vilification? Look at how much money conservative pundits make by stoking hate and fear among conservatives. You can get rich just telling these people what they want to hear. Michael Savage, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, etc, have gotten rich from these people. There is nothing like this on the liberal side.

Conservatives will support their side no matter what. If Trump shot someone in the Oval Office they wouldn't care.

We're dealing with completely irrational people. You can't reason with irrational people. In their minds, any lie that Trump tells can be rationalized or justified or whatabouticized in some way.

 

[SoCal]

...The Trump fans, deep down insided, yeah, they know he's lying. They aren't THAT stupid. But they love him anyways and if his horse**** lies pisses off you librul, democRAT snowflakes, well, then it's worth it. Make America hate again.

Spot on. Once you've thrown out your scruples and back a known immoral liar, you've crossed a line. If someone's willing to accept a lying shyster in exchange for conservative judges and a hateful wall, what's the big issue with letting Russians undermine our elections so long as they're on our side?...

 

[Xyce]

Insurers decide what plans to keep and what doctors to use and always have. Obama could not and did not change that. He also did not throw anyone off their plan, the insurers did.

Why did the insurers kick those people off the plan? Because of Obamacare. Because of the new framework in which the insurers were operating. You're arguing in vacuo. You're decontextualizing Obamacare from insurers' decision-making; you're taking their decision out of context. You're being intellectually dishonest and disrespectful to the people who were kicked off of their health care plans because of Obama's doing. Even if he did not mean for it to happen, it happened. But he was selling this to the American people. He needed the American people to support his health care plan to get it past. So he engaged in a little lying to manipulate Americans into supporting it.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

This lie actually affected the lives of Americans.

That's just a failed campaign promise not a factual lie. If I tell my kids I'll take them to McDonald's tomorrow but don't because I was stuck at work, that's not a lie. Only a child would insist that's a lie.

It shows you how honest Obama was that this is all you guys bring up over and over again.

A lie is, U.S. Steel CEO called me and told me they are building 6 new plants. That's a lie. Then repeating it over and over again.
A lie is saying you gave the military a pay raise when you had nothing to do with it.

 

[iguanaman]

How do you know what he meant? Can you read his mind? Unless you have proof of what he meant, we must accept what he said. Let's keep the metaphysics out of this discussion, please.

And that's the only lie I need to mention. I can mention more, but I was making the point that the volume of lies is not what we should be considering. We should be considering the gravity of the lies. How it actually affects Americans. How, for example, does Trump lying about his crowd size affect you? Now if you were one of those Americans who lost their health care plan, Obama's lie did, in fact, affect you.

Can you, please, stop playing logical gymnastics for Obama. As you've seen, I will critique Trump. I will point out when he lies. I will point out when his partisans accept it as gospel. Why don't you point out Obama's lies? Why are you trying to engage me in this twisted game of logic of ignoring Obama's words and focusing on his intent, as if you actually know what he meant.

I know what he meant because I know how our HC system works. Insurers decide what plans to keep and what plans to end. That is always how it has been. Apparently you thought the President made those decisions but that is your problem, not mine and not Obama's. I do know that Obama did not throw anyone off their plans. Trumps current lies about a "crisis" at the border has caused a near record length Govt. shutdown that has put the lives of 800,000 Americans in limbo. That alone makes any misleading statements (and yes I admit they were misleading) made by Obama pale in comparison and that was just his week. I suggest you get cracking on pointing out Trumps lies instead of spouting lame whataboutisms to defend the most dishonest President in history.

 

[Xyce]

That's just a failed campaign promise not a factual lie. If I tell my kids I'll take them to McDonald's tomorrow but don't because I was stuck at work, that's not a lie. Only a child would insist that's a lie.

It shows you how honest Obama was that this is all you guys bring up over and over again.

A lie is, U.S. Steel CEO called me and told me they are building 6 new plants. That's a lie. Then repeating it over and over again.
A lie is saying you gave the military a pay raise when you had nothing to do with it.

If you were to write a biography on Obama's life, it would be a hagiography. To you, he is as pure as the wind-driven snow.

Obamacare affected the decision-making of insurers. Because of Obamacare, many people were thrown off their health care plans. If Obama was unsure of if people would be able to stay on their plans, he should have kept his mouth shut on that score, or, more honestly and honorably, he should have said, "It might affect your health care plan. You may lose your health care plan, but I am hoping that will not be the case." But no. That would not have been effective. In fact, it would be detrimental. He was selling a product. He was trying to get the American people to nod, to go along. According to Merriam-Webster, to lie is "to create a false or misleading impression." Obama was creating a false impression about Obamacare. But you don't want to concede that he was lying, because you don't want to blotch the political messiah of the left. It would have been bad enough if he was lying by omission, but he was lying by commission.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Trump should have a big sign hung on the White House front gate displaying a current count of his lies. At the rate he’s going, he’ll surpass McDonalds meals served.

 

[iguanaman]

Why did the insurers kick those people off the plan? Because of Obamacare. Because of the new framework in which the insurers were operating. You're arguing in vacuo. You're decontextualizing Obamacare from insurers' decision-making; you're taking their decision out of context. You're being intellectually dishonest and disrespectful to the people who were kicked off of their health care plans because of Obama's doing. Even if he did not mean for it to happen, it happened. But he was selling this to the American people. He needed the American people to support his health care plan to get it past. So he engaged in a little lying to manipulate Americans into supporting it.

The insurers did what they did because they wanted to. That is their right. It was not because the ACA forced them to. Not only that but the ACA is more popular now than ever and those that got kicked off their plans found their new plans to be better. So yes sometimes you need to mislead a bit to get a huge improvement in HC thru Congress. Like I said he never had any authority to keep anyone on their plan and no President does. It was a mistake for him to say that but the lies from the right were far worse.

 

[Xyce]

The insurers did what they did because they wanted to. That is their right. It was not because the ACA forced them to. Not only that but the ACA is more popular now than ever and those that got kicked off their plans found their new plans to be better. So yes sometimes you need to mislead a bit to get a huge improvement in HC thru Congress. Like I said he never had any authority to keep anyone on their plan and no President does.

Hold on.

So . . . you're saying that Obamacare did not fundamentally affect the decision-making of the insurers? It's just pure coincidence, and that the insurers were going to do this anyway, even if Obamacare never materialized?

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

If you were to write a biography on Obama's life, it would be a hagiography. To you, he is as pure as the wind-driven snow.

Obamacare affected the decision-making of insurers. Because of Obamacare, many people were thrown off their health care plans. If Obama was unsure of if people would be able to stay on their plans, he should have kept his mouth shut on that score, or, more honestly and honorably, he should have said, "It might affect your health care plan. You may lose your health care plan, but I am hoping that will not be the case." But no. That would not have been effective. In fact, it would be detrimental. He was selling a product. He was trying to get the American people to nod, to go along. According to Merriam-Webster, to lie is "to create a false or misleading impression." Obama was creating a false impression about Obamacare. But you don't want to concede that he was lying, because you don't want to blotch the political messiah of the left. It would have been bad enough if he was lying by omission, but he was lying by commission.

Lots of people's lives have been saved by Obamacare. I know hard core Republicans who are thankful for Obamacare. That's why it's popular even today.

History will show that Obama moved American in the right direction regarding health care. Almost all other developed nations have universal health care.

The future is liberal. The conservative ideal of small government and self-reliance was something only possible in simpler times.

 

[Captain America]

Why did the insurers kick those people off the plan? Because of Obamacare. Because of the new framework in which the insurers were operating. You're arguing in vacuo. You're decontextualizing Obamacare from insurers' decision-making; you're taking their decision out of context. You're being intellectually dishonest and disrespectful to the people who were kicked off of their health care plans because of Obama's doing. Even if he did not mean for it to happen, it happened. But he was selling this to the American people. He needed the American people to support his health care plan to get it past. So he engaged in a little lying to manipulate Americans into supporting it.

Personally, I don't think there is a president, who has served in my time, that didn't have their own, "Read my lips" moment. And they suffered the jabs accordingly.

But this Trump guy, he is a "read my lips/keep your doctor/weapons of mass destruction" all rolled-up-in-one, on steriods, on a daily basis, and that's just peachy-keen. But Trump defenders will tell you, "Well, that depends on what "is" is."

Where have we heard that before?

 

[Xyce]

Lots of people's lives have been saved by Obamacare. I know hard core Republicans who are thankful for Obamacare. That's why it's popular even today.

History will show that Obama moved American in the right direction regarding health care. Almost all other developed nations have universal health care.

The future is liberal. The conservative ideal of small government and self-reliance was something only possible in simpler times.

How about the people who were kicked off their health care plans because of Obamacare?

Screw them, right?

 

[Xyce]

Personally, I don't think there is a president, who has served in my time, that didn't have their own, "Read my lips" moment. And they suffered the jabs accordingly.

But this Trump guy, he is a "read my lips/keep your doctor/weapons of mass destruction" all rolled-up-in-one, on steriods, on a daily basis, and that's just peachy-keen. But Trump defenders will tell you, "Well, that depends on what "is" is."

Where have we heard that before?

I think you're being a bit hyperbolic, friend.

They all lie. But I would argue that his lies are not as bad as Obama's. Obama's lies actually affected people. The lies that actually affect Americans in their lives are the ones that should really matter.

 

[Captain America]

How about the people who were kicked off their health care plans because of Obamacare?

Screw them, right?

Only if they're democrats. You know, like federal workers. [/sarcasm]

 

[Captain America]

I think you're being a bit hyperbolic, friend.

They all lie. But I would argue that his lies are not as bad as Obama's. Obama's lies actually affected people. The lies that actually affect Americans in their lives are the ones that should really matter.

If you think I'm going to waste my time defending Obama about ANYTHING, you are barking up the wrong tree, my friend. Not a big fan.

But we are talking about the here and now. The thread specifically says Trump is our topic. If you want to meet over on the "Obama is a do-do head" thread and bash Obama, I'll join you.

But let's get back to here and now and Trump. We'll deflect later. Fair enough?

Trump lies **** people up too. Surely you know that.

We can't believe a single word that comes out of that man's mouth. Nothing. That does not bother you?

 

[trixare4kids]

I think you're being a bit hyperbolic, friend.

They all lie. But I would argue that his lies are not as bad as Obama's. Obama's lies actually affected people. The lies that actually affect Americans in their lives are the ones that should really matter.

Damn right Obama's lies affected Americans.

"What we said was, you can keep (your plan) if it hasn't changed ... "If you like your plan and you like your doctor, you won't have to do a thing."

Most Americans lost their plans and doctors, and got penalized in the way of a more expensive premium, higher deductible, and out of pocket expense and lousier wait times.

 

[Irwin Corey]

If you were to write a biography on Obama's life, it would be a hagiography. To you, he is as pure as the wind-driven snow.

I don't know many Obama supports that believe he is or ever was infallible.<--period

Obamacare affected the decision-making of insurers.[/quote

WITH their considerable input.

Because of Obamacare, many people were thrown off their health care plans.

Not that many, in the overall scheme of things less than 6% had to change plans.

If Obama was unsure of if people would be able to stay on their plans, he should have kept his mouth shut on that score, or, more honestly and honorably, he should have said, "It might affect your health care plan.

I'm sure he wishes he would have said that but between the time the ACA was conceived and it was implemented HHS added the rule that plans changed within the year were not grandfathered in and had to meet the minimum coverage requirements; which is the reason some plans ended.

You may lose your health care plan, but I am hoping that will not be the case." But no. That would not have been effective. In fact, it would be detrimental. He was selling a product. He was trying to get the American people to nod, to go along.

That is either uninformed or a flat ass lie.

According to Merriam-Webster, to lie is "to create a false or misleading impression." Obama was creating a false impression about Obamacare. But you don't want to concede that he was lying, because you don't want to blotch the political messiah of the left. It would have been bad enough if he was lying by omission, but he was lying by commission.

Again you or either uninformed or you are the one that is lying.

As someone else said if that's the LIE you want to saddle President Obama with to justify trumps 10 lies a day, nearly 8 thousand in almost two years then you are comparing an elephant to the pimple on its ass.